684 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Sephlock, on 12 July 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I wouldn't be opposed to them working as they do in tabletop. Anything would be better then their current "One Ring" status.

Me too. For me personally especially this part:"Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

[Wolfways]

Has anyone made a video about avoiding LRM's? I can't find one and i'm old and easily confused by all this hi-techy computer stuff

[Sorbic]

Wolfways, on 12 July 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Well tbh i never get hit with several mechs worth of LRM's either. I know they are in the match and their general direction (by the missiles flying through the sky towards teammates), so i use cover to not get hit by them while i'm moving around.

How did you get missile collision from what i said?
I said make it harder to hit, which with the lock on system i'm not sure is even possible. But spreading the missiles would cause less damage to the target.
I'm not in favour of nerfing LRM's though, at least not without a hefty buff for direct-fire, which should be the main way LRM's are used. Long range, little damage. Of course the slow missile speed and the warning make it almost impossible to use them at anywhere near max range

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The collision thing was just something that popped into my head after thinking of other options besides my first "limit" comment. It wouldn't be worth the time though as they are often spaced just enough...

Yeah, the warning/speed does make firing from far off mostly pointless. I know a lot of shots would still be missed due to folks randomly walking behind cover, but I wonder how much it would help if they decreased the missile warning range to something like 500 meters.

Edited by Sorbic, 12 July 2014 - 07:47 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Dracol, on 09 June 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

I'll give ya a hint how to avoid LRMs in a light.... don't run away, run towards them.

Actually. if you run horizontally away you will get the least amount of damage.

[Johnny Reb]

JohanssenJr, on 09 June 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Pretty much. Direct fire is point and click, which IMO I'd argue is just as low skill. But seeing people's ability to point and click everywhere BUT the place it matters is mind boggling.

I think the real skill lies in coordinating with teammates. But what do I know? I just used to be a stupid cannon cocker.

Team coordination is the true skill. I agree!

[Johnny Reb]

I am a lrm fan. That said, it is an easy to use weapon. Almost to easy. Still the thing, in my mind, is not only using the lrm wep system but on which mechs that will help the team and not hurt it. Since the clans have come out I only run 2 lrm boats, and one isn't really a boat. The Atlas-D-DC, so I can provide ecm to my direwolf and timber heavy hitters. My other go too is my kintro-18, who is now my fav lrm boat. Streaks on IS mechs are dead but the Kint-18 makes one hell of a lrm boat!

edit: tonight with a group I rarely drop with but will drop with more now. Had three 700+ damage and two 800+ damage in my lrm Kint. Also got my 5 kill achievement, yay me and yay great narcs!

This is the mech: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e4f30fa11d3ebb6
lrm5 in this config is basically a machine gun lrm till your heat gets to high. Going ct to the big boys and legs to those lights moving, if they stand still then dead.

I would love 2x damage, and even with 2x reload speed, which would hurt, still would make my kint deadly. Increased heat would screw the lrms.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 12 July 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[Wolfways]

Johnny Reb, on 12 July 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

That said, it is an easy to use weapon.

Every weapon is an easy to use weapon in MWO. But a smart player doesn't let LRM's kill him.

[Johnny Reb]

Wolfways, on 12 July 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

Every weapon is an easy to use weapon in MWO. But a smart player doesn't let LRM's kill him.

Very true. I guess I prey on the very dumb then the ones engaged, my tag helps for those not dumb also!

[Johnny Reb]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 June 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

I am entitled to give my opinion as much as others. *Shrug* I been playing these games since the late 70s... Skill in the proper sense of the word does not exist here.
Drag point and click
vs
Point Click and drag

I do this all day long posting on this forum! Is that "skill"???

Sort of. You can manipulate the pointing device and make it move. So yeah that's a skill.

edit: also you can type words, another skill! Hazza

Edited by Johnny Reb, 12 July 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[Zuesacoatl]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 09 June 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

Im not a noob who just created an account and started whining ive been playing this game since August of 2013.(The time where LRMs didnt take over the game.) And i bet you ******** who say its not op and i stand right in the open, tell me how to get rid of an ECM spider in caustic valley or alpine peaks locking on you while his friend is firing away. You cant. And i bet most of you saying its perfectly fine are lrm users cause if you were on the recieving end of those skill less things you would whine just as much as i am.

I died for the first time in a very long time to a barrage of lurms from 3 different mechs, but I typed in general "well played, my noob side came out and like an idiot I ran into the open." And that was a fact. I did not whine, I just kicked myself in the rear for bursting out of cover and letting the superman feeling flow over me telling me "go ahead, you can make that next rise, it is only 700 meters, those noobs will never get ya" and found out it was not superman, but the Joker inside having a laugh at me.

Get better, you will find that lrms are not as prevalant in the higher elos, but if you complain about the lurms, just wait till you get smacked by a meta mech in a light from across the map and have to watch the next 14:20 of a battle you did no dmg in. Ppfld is no pick nick, and if you can't stomach lurms, you are going to have a stroke when a meta smacks you down.

[Johnny Reb]

I'm not near the high level, but I bring them in our 12 mans. Who get rolled by the high level but who cares! I don't care, just re-ready up!

edit: when the good groups are serious its precision arty strikes anyway. However, nobody complains about that! Just us weak lrms. I say nerf precision! I should ask for nerfing whining, would happen first!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 13 July 2014 - 12:06 AM.

[ztac]

Got to love this .. The people using them try to make the people saying they are OP look like idiots .(So I am an idiot and the information in this post is obviously written by an idiot!)

However , the rewards for indirect fire should be minimal as it is almost a weapon with no risk apart from when a light goes hunting them and to be frank that is rare as the game pushes people towards grouping up in blobs (and most lights that go LRM hunting seem to end up dead very fast)... so the LRM has adequate protection from his team mates in those situations.

I have played LRM and it is easy mode. No skill required really and the fact that LRM users complain about ECM and what other few counters there actually are is ludicrous!

OK so to the counters....

Cover , not all cover is equal as all too often the missiles skip over the hill/building (the problem is the height of the cover or elevation of the firer).

ECM , now this can be countered but invariably there will be players not covered by ECM. ECM can be countered by jammers, Or narc's and even ECM wont help vs TAG from my experience.

Radar Dep module :- only helpful if you are out of LOS and if narc'd forget it! (and uses up a module slot)

AMS , AMS may as well not exist for all the good it does .. kitfox with 3 , and other mechs adding up to 6 AMS in total were still only partially effective at stopping the missiles (kitfox had ECM incidentally which was countered!). AMS also suffered from recent speed buff's to missiles (the faster a missile travels the less time an AMS system has to counter or fire at it....so more missiles get through, seems PGI have added small buffs here and there which all add up to a significant boost , if they did the same to Gaus or PPC the forums would be ablaze!).

Potentially players can use up module space and valuable tonnage just to counter one weapon , and these counters are not very effective.

So above are the 'counters' , not very good really are when you compare direct fire , cover is 100% effective! And all you need is cover. And the fact that people add extra tonnage to their mechs to 'soft' counter 1 weapon is kind of bad.

LRM shake gives a huge advantage too as invariably you can not even see anything , so trying to get in cover can be a problem if you can not even see where you are going!

Adding the Narc and TAG factor in and you get one overpowered weapon when there are several in the game, Now this is probably the real problem and the root cause , one missile boat is probably not too bad , but when you have several or 50-60 tube boats out there it becomes an overpowered weapon because of the combined effect.

I have mentioned before that on the training ground it took just 180 missiles I think to take down an atlas (yes no ams or cover I know) , but that's not too many really considering potentially you would never even see the target.

The fact that the Direwolf moves so slow and just being in the open for 6 seconds can end very badly in Matchmaker games (still got a large hitbox , but it is large!).

The Direwolf will actually last longer than that if it finds half an enemy team using direct fire on it.......Now go sit on the stairs and think about it!

[Johnny Reb]

ztac, on 13 July 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

Got to love this .. The people using them try to make the people saying they are OP look like idiots .(So I am an idiot and the information in this post is obviously written by an idiot!)

However , the rewards for indirect fire should be minimal as it is almost a weapon with no risk apart from when a light goes hunting them and to be frank that is rare as the game pushes people towards grouping up in blobs (and most lights that go LRM hunting seem to end up dead very fast)... so the LRM has adequate protection from his team mates in those situations.

I have played LRM and it is easy mode. No skill required really and the fact that LRM users complain about ECM and what other few counters there actually are is ludicrous!

OK so to the counters....

Cover , not all cover is equal as all too often the missiles skip over the hill/building (the problem is the height of the cover or elevation of the firer).

EDIT: well what ever nerf happens I will still find to use lrms.

edit: well I guess I am saying nerf the lrms I will still find ways to use them!

ECM , now this can be countered but invariably there will be players not covered by ECM. ECM can be countered by jammers, Or narc's and even ECM wont help vs TAG from my experience.

Radar Dep module :- only helpful if you are out of LOS and if narc'd forget it! (and uses up a module slot)

AMS , AMS may as well not exist for all the good it does .. kitfox with 3 , and other mechs adding up to 6 AMS in total were still only partially effective at stopping the missiles (kitfox had ECM incidentally which was countered!). AMS also suffered from recent speed buff's to missiles (the faster a missile travels the less time an AMS system has to counter or fire at it....so more missiles get through, seems PGI have added small buffs here and there which all add up to a significant boost , if they did the same to Gaus or PPC the forums would be ablaze!).

Potentially players can use up module space and valuable tonnage just to counter one weapon , and these counters are not very effective.

So above are the 'counters' , not very good really are when you compare direct fire , cover is 100% effective! And all you need is cover. And the fact that people add extra tonnage to their mechs to 'soft' counter 1 weapon is kind of bad.

LRM shake gives a huge advantage too as invariably you can not even see anything , so trying to get in cover can be a problem if you can not even see where you are going!

Adding the Narc and TAG factor in and you get one overpowered weapon when there are several in the game, Now this is probably the real problem and the root cause , one missile boat is probably not too bad , but when you have several or 50-60 tube boats out there it becomes an overpowered weapon because of the combined effect.

I have mentioned before that on the training ground it took just 180 missiles I think to take down an atlas (yes no ams or cover I know) , but that's not too many really considering potentially you would never even see the target.

The fact that the Direwolf moves so slow and just being in the open for 6 seconds can end very badly in Matchmaker games (still got a large hitbox , but it is large!).

The Direwolf will actually last longer than that if it finds half an enemy team using direct fire on it.......Now go sit on the stairs and think about it!

Heh, you know there was a time that lrms were deemed worthless and not usable. I and others still used them. I still will again if needed cause if you take out lrms this is just Call of Duty with robots. At least to me.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 13 July 2014 - 12:43 AM.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

ztac, on 13 July 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

The Direwolf will actually last longer than that if it finds half an enemy team using direct fire on it.......Now go sit on the stairs and think about it!

THIS IS MY PROBLEM. Direct fire can miss, can be dodged by zigzagging. Lrms CAN'T miss while locked unless there is something in the way or you are moving like 150+ kph (idk i never use anything that goes over 100 because i hate that style of gameplay), and while they do spread, 4 mechs with lrm 30-60s don't really care that much if half their missiles hit the wrong components, the ones that do are more than enough to cripple any mech with more than 5 secs of sustained fire. Anything less than 40 missiles flying through the air isn't that punishing, but when multiple boats are present you can and will die in mere seconds.

[ztac]

Now I have finished a game in a DW doing what assaults are supposed to do .. except I could not.... LRM blew me to bits and the shakes stopped me from targeting enemies with accurate fire as you can't really see anything with all the effects going off.
needless to say I died in about 8 seconds ... from LRM fire. I was also following a canyon wall with the LRM coming at me from my right side.(the wall was on my right side). But then there is cover and there is 'cover'!

And yes I should know better by now! But at the start of the game there was not much LRM fire and we were about 3 mins in(at the start.....).

[Col Jaime Wolf]

everyone talks about those silly stalker/pult/atlas+ecm boats. does no one love their orions?

you can skip your missiles across the ground in tunnels as much as use your arms make shots arc over obstacles that other boats can only dream of (really try it on testing grounds).

http://<a href="http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=101&l=3f75bd64dddc032fafc013f1b90eba31185aff4e">ON1-VA</a>

if you don't like having to put ammo in your torso you can still get a satisfying 50 in a V

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8c4db8c0ca0114b

you can even drop it to 2 10's and a 15 for some nice backup lasers and an ac5.

but really lrms are not OP and they do take alot of skill and situational awareness to use properly.

Edited by Mellifluer, 13 July 2014 - 05:39 AM.

[Mavairo]

Sorbic, on 12 July 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

AMS does not stack exponentially. Switch between dual and single and you'll notice almost exactly double the missiles shot down. So at times that's 6. Out of a volley of 30... Outside of the amount of ammo I think AMS is fine, I was responding to folks who pretend it's some magic shield that negates LRMs.

Yes, SOMETIMES you can still get cover when engaging other mechs and I've used big enemy's for coverage but if the opposing pilot doesn't suck you either take extra damage from him (bad idea) or take a number of the LRMS unless the LRM angle is to your favor.

The whole "do not stop" thing is wrong as there is plenty of time in which you don't need movement (unless you're a light) to stay alive. Esp when the other team is on the other side of the map.

"PBR underhive" What a silly term... I'm sorry but I often run odd builds and enjoy just having fun. My Cat C1 is 2 ppc 2 mlas 2 streak (need something to shoot up/down lol) and it's one of my favorites even though I do FAR better on many other mechs that don't have a ridiculous CT damage zone. But that being said I wouldn't want to leave bottom (besides mid/highish ELO's seem to get pretty well mixed with low) elo folks in a game that kills their fun just because I'm above it. Said with my snottiest voice.

The rest of your post seemed automated (understandable with the topic) and didn't seem to address my points which acknowledged radar dep and ECM being OP. Frankly I think the fact that ECM, AMS, Radar dep and easy/quick targeting of LRM boats drops them from large skilled groups speaks to the fact that they need tweaked as I previously said.

As I stated, LRM's aren't OP and ECM/Radar Dep needs weakened. However rare, on some games the number of LRM racks is silly and should be capped. Folks can pretend like there is nothing but buffing that needs to be done are full of it or not paying attention to other players needs.

Get 6 guys carrying AMS within range of each other, and see how much they qqn about LRMs. They won't unless they join Team Derp and just stay stationary where they can be blasted into oblivion. In which case, Team Derp will still die faster to PPC+GR or PPC+AC anyway. 6 mechs carrying AMS last even playing Team Derp a hell of alot longer than 6 mechs do without it. It's not the game's fault that people are too stupid to carry AMS if they're in an LRM heavy environment. That's the equivalent of slapping on XL engines, in mechs with gigantic side torsos, in an environment rife with front loaded damage and pin point weaponry. You deserve what you get.

Intelligent LRM pilots will move after their initial volleys fail to land, they will know where on the map they can go to bring the rain down and have it land a new, or the enemy team will Advance while Team Derp cowers behind a building from the rain, and then get mopped up in short order. Stopping and STAYING in one position is death, for exactly this reason. In my A1 if the enemy has moved into a position on say River, Frozen, Crimson (The best maps for defending yourself via cover from LRMS) I can shift my position, and start raining death back down with my LRM30, all over again. (Fired from 2 15s) I will continue to move towards the enemy and reposition, along with the brawlers, decimating whatever gets in my way with SRM 24 backup, or firing LRM 30 directly. If the enemy makes no moves to reposition after they get shelter from the initial volleys, then they are opening themselves up for being flanked, or destroyed 90 degrees to the right or left from future volleys 90 percent of the time.

Movement and positioning is what wins games in mechwarrior, flat out. It doesn't matter if you are in a 50 kph direwhale, or a 150 kph jenner. Allowing your enemy to reposition and complete suppress you due to your timidity, will get you a nice fat loss rate.

There's a reason why you don't see LRMs en mass above the lowbie tiers. (The only time I even see them enough to be called Significant is when I'm in my Jenner, because it has less than 50 matches under it's belt and it's my only light other than my locust which lost like 20 games and won 4), because it doesn't matter how many of them you stack up and fire off, after a certain point their effectiveness completely drops off, and that was before the advent of Radar Derp, and Two AMS Modules.

If you die to massed fire LRMs you just aren't trying. Get Gud. LRMs are like the M203 grenade launcher in COD. It only really kills the bads. The draw backs of the weapon system are so numerous and heinous that against people that use a modicum of common sense while fighting can defeat them. You don't even have to go full on meta to curbstomp LRMs, Lasers, SRMs, MGs, with a smattering of PPC and AC fire will do it everytime if you don't join Team Derp.

Controlled Aggression will utterly destroy even the better LRM users, every time. Playing Stationary is EXACTLY what LRM users want you to do. Because even if you do find cover against the first few volleys, any LRM user with a modicum of intelligence is going to begin repositioning as SOON as they see the damage confirmation on their HUD stop.

Edited by Mavairo, 13 July 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[Mavairo]

Wolfways, on 12 July 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Has anyone made a video about avoiding LRM's? I can't find one and i'm old and easily confused by all this hi-techy computer stuff

I could, but it'd require me to get into a private match unless I field a Jenner. (My Light ELO is terrible)

[Wolfways]

ztac, on 13 July 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

Got to love this .. The people using them try to make the people saying they are OP look like idiots .(So I am an idiot and the information in this post is obviously written by an idiot!)

Spoken like someone who just hates LRM's.
I have 6 mechs, two of them have LRM's (no boats) one of which i rarely play. I never get killed by LRM's and i rarely get hit by them. LRM's are not OP no matter what mech I'm using, including a 53kph Stalker.

Quote

However , the rewards for indirect fire should be minimal as it is almost a weapon with no risk apart from when a light goes hunting them and to be frank that is rare as the game pushes people towards grouping up in blobs (and most lights that go LRM hunting seem to end up dead very fast)... so the LRM has adequate protection from his team mates in those situations.

No risk other than the possibility of ECM making your weapons useless and having so much weight dedicated to missiles seriously reducing your ability to fight in close/medium range.

Quote

I have played LRM and it is easy mode. No skill required really and the fact that LRM users complain about ECM and what other few counters there actually are is ludicrous!

Good for you. When/if you get better and your ELO rises you'll find that using LRM's is not so easy against players who know what they are doing.

Quote

OK so to the counters....

Cover , not all cover is equal as all too often the missiles skip over the hill/building (the problem is the height of the cover or elevation of the firer).

ECM , now this can be countered but invariably there will be players not covered by ECM. ECM can be countered by jammers, Or narc's and even ECM wont help vs TAG from my experience.

Radar Dep module :- only helpful if you are out of LOS and if narc'd forget it! (and uses up a module slot)

AMS , AMS may as well not exist for all the good it does .. kitfox with 3 , and other mechs adding up to 6 AMS in total were still only partially effective at stopping the missiles (kitfox had ECM incidentally which was countered!). AMS also suffered from recent speed buff's to missiles (the faster a missile travels the less time an AMS system has to counter or fire at it....so more missiles get through, seems PGI have added small buffs here and there which all add up to a significant boost , if they did the same to Gaus or PPC the forums would be ablaze!).

Potentially players can use up module space and valuable tonnage just to counter one weapon , and these counters are not very effective.

You can thank PGI for all the extra counters you get then, considering that not only have LRM's been seriously nerfed in the transition from TT to MWO but you also get more ways to counter or reduce the damage.
Exactly how many counters are there for lasers or AC's?

Quote

So above are the 'counters' , not very good really are when you compare direct fire , cover is 100% effective! And all you need is cover. And the fact that people add extra tonnage to their mechs to 'soft' counter 1 weapon is kind of bad.

Wow, you never get hit by direct-fire? You must be an amazing player!
I must really suck as i keep getting hit by direct-fire before i can step into cover, unlike LRM's where i can avoid the vast majority of them...

Quote

LRM shake gives a huge advantage too as invariably you can not even see anything , so trying to get in cover can be a problem if you can not even see where you are going!

If you are getting hit by a stream of missiles you already failed at positioning. It happens to everyone, just more for some people than others.

Quote

Adding the Narc and TAG factor in and you get one overpowered weapon when there are several in the game, Now this is probably the real problem and the root cause , one missile boat is probably not too bad , but when you have several or 50-60 tube boats out there it becomes an overpowered weapon because of the combined effect.

Ooh something i agree with...sort of. Indirect-fire is a force multiplier and can be OP...if you get outmaneouvered by your opponents.

Quote

I have mentioned before that on the training ground it took just 180 missiles I think to take down an atlas (yes no ams or cover I know) , but that's not too many really considering potentially you would never even see the target.

Just 180 missiles or a whole ton of ammo?...

Quote

The fact that the Direwolf moves so slow and just being in the open for 6 seconds can end very badly in Matchmaker games (still got a large hitbox , but it is large!).

The Direwolf will actually last longer than that if it finds half an enemy team using direct fire on it.......Now go sit on the stairs and think about it!

The Direwolf (with speedtweaks) is the same speed as my Stalker. I have no trouble with LRM's in that mech. The problem is obviousy pilot related.

[InspectorG]

Khobai, on 09 June 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Taking ECM to hard counter LRMs requires absolutely no skill. ECM is completely automatic and requires the player to do absolutely nothing and in return they get a super magic missile shield for themselves and everyone near them. ECM is still the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game.

While firing LRMs requires little skill in of itself, the fact remains LRM users still have to find a way to counter a hard counter (ECM) before their missiles can land. And that absolutely requires skill.

PPCs/ACs on the other hand dont have to contend with any counters at all: not even soft counters. So one could argue using PPCs/ACs is more easy mode than using LRMs.

You said, 'magic missile'. Are you a wizard?