684 replies to this topic

[Thunder Child]

Lol. Making Full Use of Alpine? You mean the Empty Ravine along the bottom, of which we shall never speak? It's take an Direwolf the entire 15 mins just to reach it.

Though, to be fair, that Map is HEAVILY Under-utilised. And by putting a Control Point at each end of that Lower Ravine, perhaps one in the Killbox, and one at each base, or maybe even the hills behind the base? Bring on Role- Warfare!

Mavairo, I'm gonna throw that into the Feature Suggestions.

[Mavairo]

Thunder Child, on 18 July 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Lol. Making Full Use of Alpine? You mean the Empty Ravine along the bottom, of which we shall never speak? It's take an Direwolf the entire 15 mins just to reach it.

Though, to be fair, that Map is HEAVILY Under-utilised. And by putting a Control Point at each end of that Lower Ravine, perhaps one in the Killbox, and one at each base, or maybe even the hills behind the base? Bring on Role- Warfare!

Mavairo, I'm gonna throw that into the Feature Suggestions.

Yes, the one that the cap points used to sit at back when Alpine was first introduced. Meaning Fast Heavies, Mediums and Lights would take on seriously greater importance in this game. Particularly as they are also quick enough to leave the take and hold points, when the enemy comes to deal with them, and then zip back after they're gone.

[Noesis]

LRMs need to remain as a viable weapon system regardless of applied skill to ensure we dont have a dominance with any one form of role or weapon system. Without LRMs remaining equally effective as other weapon systems like direct fire support weapons MWO would revert to sniper warrior online.

There are more than sufficent techniques and tools to avoid LRM fire effects. The latest nerf to the LRM systems being quite significant with the use of radar deprevation modules for the direct fire support and to some extent the other roles. This also made the spotter role more significant for partnership or team based play with E-war tools designed to support LRMs however but did make the idea of LRM use overall less effective.

[ImperialKnight]

Everything seems OP when boated and stacked.

I take it that you've never been focused down from 100% to 0 instantly by a meta lance?

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

[TheAtomiser]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

Sounds like you need to put AMS on your mechs and stop bitching

[Thunder Child]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Yes, the one that the cap points used to sit at back when Alpine was first introduced. Meaning Fast Heavies, Mediums and Lights would take on seriously greater importance in this game. Particularly as they are also quick enough to leave the take and hold points, when the enemy comes to deal with them, and then zip back after they're gone.

Which is what my faithful old Dragon used to make it's living doing. The thread is up now, "An alternative to Capping in Conquest".

[Kjudoon]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Ok. That actually surprised me. Your buffs are not as crazy as I have come to expect from folks who are not happy with LRMs! I am not unhappy with present LRM damage, but more damage is always welcome to a power player(like me), and the speed boost would make many upset, but 185 M/S is not out of the present performance envelope of today's missiles.

With these same buffs, I would be satisfied too. They're still not consistant, no splash damage anymore (damage nerf) and the speed would screw up the long game with lost locks thanks to ECM and RaDerp Modules (even MORE critical now).

PGI, this would be a neat buff to try. Yes, it will eat newer players, but the higher level players would suddenly have a new weapon to play with. Guidance is more iffy, but LOS game is gonna be SWEEEEEET in return.

[Kjudoon]

Thunder Child, on 18 July 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

That last idea.... that is solid gold! Imagine if in Conquest, instead of "Capping" the locations, you got points for Holding them. In other words, as long as a mech is on a location, the points go up. If the mech leaves, the points stop. Suddenly area denial and map control are worth something, and the Deathblob (murderball) can be kited around while lights and mediums tick up points.

Edit:, make it Points per mech per 5 seconds, or something. So 5 mechs on a location would earn 5 points every 5 seconds. And perhaps have a limit (say, a Lance) to each location. OR, maybe, if you hold two locations, your team gets double the points. Or 50% more. Modifiers, anyways. So holding all 5 simultaneously would earn super rapid points. Piling all you mechs onto one would tick up slowly, but would be easily out-capped by 6 mechs on 2 points.

GIMME!!! GIMME NAOOOO!!!!!!

Another LRM solution would be increasing range to 1500m and leave the speed the same. Care to hold or try to regain lock after 8 seconds? HAH!

[Johnny Reb]

Yeah, guess arty/air are fine!

[Wolfways]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

LRMs have Never been a "reliable" damaging weapon. Mostly from the random Missile table. You hit with 2 LRM 20s and you average 24 damage with anything between 12-40 possible. Almost 3 decades of Missiles being a crap shoot and that is the way they are here. So working as intended.

The amount of missiles that hit may have been random, but at least in TT you didn't tell your opponent that you were firing and then hope that he didn't make it to cover in his next movement phase so that you could actually hit him.

I'd like LRM's to be as described in Sarna. A low damage, long range weapon. In MWO they don't even get to use half of their "not-really-long-range". (Although i do think that all weapons with a forced spread should get a damage increase. i.e. SRM, LBX , SSRM, LRM.)

[Wolfways]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Actually it'd be VERY easy to make me happy with LRMs.
1: 185 ms flight speed
2: 1.25 dmg a missile.

The existing counters would still work on them of course, but that might be what they need to be useful at longer ranges.
I would also like to see Bigger Cbill bonuses for Counter ECM, Tag and Narc to encourage people to do it more often.

I personally don't think 185ms is enough (I know people disagree though ). SRM speed at 300ms is okay because they are a short range weapon, but a weapon that is supposed to be able to fire at up to 1000m needs to be faster imo. I'd like to see LRM speed at least at 300ms.
I don't actually care about a damage increase...unless the ROF was also nerfed.

I also don't see a need for a "bonus" for using countermeasures. To me the bonus is less incoming missile damage.

Oh yeah, and LRM's still need to be fire-and-forget.

Edited by Wolfways, 19 July 2014 - 01:00 AM.

[Demoncard]

Wolfways, on 18 July 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

No, because i rarely have to react. I already move around using cover.
Also, i already said the warning should be removed to make them viable at long range, just like other long ranged weapons.

I don't think you get it.

A suicidal light runs into your team, having given up on the idea of DC'ing. You're the nearest thing to him, and he locks onto you and shoots at you wildly. You're promptly locked onto by his teammates on the other side of the map and hit by a thousand lrms at once. You're dead. The encounter took less than 5 seconds. Getting caught outside of ECM is a instant death sentence for your surviving teammates.

While that scenario seems far-fetched, it's what you're calling for. Giving LRMs absurd speed will encourage bad tactics, bad play, and AMS will have fun trying to shoot them down. Doubling the speed instead of increasing it to 500m/s isn't much better. This idea needs to stay in the realm of absurdist fantasy where it belongs.

If the test server were configurable by users, it'd be easy to show you why it's such a bad idea.

Edited by Demoncard, 19 July 2014 - 04:56 AM.

[Wolfways]

Demoncard, on 19 July 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

I don't think you get it.

A suicidal light runs into your team, having given up on the idea of DC'ing. You're the nearest thing to him, and he locks onto you and shoots at you wildly. You're promptly locked onto by his teammates on the other side of the map and hit by a thousand lrms at once. You're dead. The encounter took less than 5 seconds. Getting caught outside of ECM is a instant death sentence for your surviving teammates.

While that scenario seems far-fetched, it's what you're calling for. Giving LRMs absurd speed will encourage bad tactics, bad play, and AMS will have fun trying to shoot them down. Doubling the speed instead of increasing it to 500m/s isn't much better. This idea needs to stay in the realm of absurdist fantasy where it belongs.

If the test server were configurable by users, it'd be easy to show you why it's such a bad idea.

I do get it. You could change LRM speed to 500ms and it would make little difference to me (as the target) because if you are using terrain LRM's cannot hit you unless they all come from multiple directions from different mechs, in which case i was outplayed. Congrats to the opposing team.

I can understand how your scenario works for those who can't or won't learn to use cover though.

My point is that currently LRM's can be completely negated, and almost completely negated without using any countermeasures, yet LRM's will never be what they are supposed to be; direct-fire Long-Range Missiles. That is due to the very slow speed of the missiles (so slow that they give you a chance to get behind cover if you're near it), the stupid warning (which let's you know a weak weapon is on its way...), and the small arena-type maps we have (which people claim have few areas of cover on them...).

I don't care about indirect-fire. I don't get hit by it often and neither do many of the people i play against. I certainly haven't been killed by LRM's more than a dozen times since closed beta.
I don't care about boats either. I don't believe they are a problem, but wouldn't care if they were removed from the game (except stock boats).

Has there ever been a BT/MW game where LRM's were this useless?

[Demoncard]

Wolfways, on 19 July 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

I do get it. You could change LRM speed to 500ms and it would make little difference to me (as the target) because if you are using terrain LRM's cannot hit you unless they all come from multiple directions from different mechs, in which case i was outplayed. Congrats to the opposing team.

The moment you're locked and you're not behind a building or a hill, you'd be dead. It'd require little in the way of tactics or cooperation. You're including Clan LRMs in this, too, I assume. At 0-180m, you'd still die a quick death. Catapults would go from being fire support to doomsday devices.

300m/s and 500m/s both completely bypass AMS, and make dumbfiring LRMs at far away targets under ECM and butchering them a possibility.

Bringing up the usual response to "LRMs are OP" isn't valid in this case. Turning LRMs into a 500m/s mechseeking monstrosity just isn't a valid buff, no matter what spin you put on it.

Edited by Demoncard, 19 July 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[Wolfways]

Demoncard, on 19 July 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

The moment you're locked and you're not behind a building or a hill, you'd be dead. It'd require little in the way of tactics or cooperation. You're including Clan LRMs in this, too, I assume. At 0-180m, you'd still die a quick death. Catapults would go from being fire support to doomsday devices.

Bringing up the usual response to "LRMs are OP" isn't valid in this case. Turning LRMs into a 500m/s mechseeking monstrosity just isn't a valid buff, no matter what spin you put on it.

How do you "die a quick death" from a weapon that still does practically no damage under 100m? It's almost like getting hit by a PPC under 90m.

I thought i'd test clan LRM's about a week ago when on River City i found a Timber Wolf with a Firestarter spotting for it. I fired at the Timber Wolf to get his attention (which also turned him away from my team) and backed up a little behind cover to avoid the lasers. Sure enough the Firestarter came after me and i stood there, firing at the light while the missiles came flying over the ramp towards me. I stood completely still (other than torso twisting to shoot at the FS) and let them hit me. By the time the light decided he had taken enough damage (I was in my stock JM6-S with 0 countermeasures) and vanished i had taken little damage. Some yellow armour, and i think one orange. That's from a Timber Wolf with 2xLRM20.

While i may agree that an absurd amount of LRM's fired at a single target can be punishing, that only happens if you are outplayed. But tbh, remove indirect-fire for all i care.
My point stands that direct-fire LRM's are extremely bad. Not just because they spread damage, but because they are impossible to be used at long-range.

[Demoncard]

Wolfways, on 19 July 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

How do you "die a quick death" from a weapon that still does practically no damage under 100m? It's almost like getting hit by a PPC under 90m.

That was a bit out there, yeah. What I was getting at was that they'd all hit you almost instantly, and with CLRM spread being what it is, there's a good chance they could core you, bearing in mind how many you can fire in a short space of time.

From 180m upwards, Clan LRMs would be better functioning lasers. Regular LRMs would be arcing lasers.

Direct fire LRMs are supposed to be bad, and LRMs are supposed to require a lock. They're working as intended.

Edited by Demoncard, 19 July 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[Wolfways]

Demoncard, on 19 July 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

That was a bit out there, yeah. What I was getting at was that they'd all hit you almost instantly, and with CLRM spread being what it is, there's a good chance they could core you, bearing in mind how many you can fire in a short space of time.

Ah, so you're talking about multiple launchers. It's like getting hit by PPC's...that spread the damage. I don't see the problem. Torso twist spreads the damage more.

Quote

From 180m upwards, Clan LRMs would be better functioning lasers. Regular LRMs would be arcing lasers.

I don't understand this. You mean because they both spread the damage (with lasers depending on both pilots skills)? But with LRM's you don't get to aim, and you have to keep the lock.

Quote

Direct fire LRMs are supposed to be bad, and LRMs are supposed to require a lock. They're working as intended.

Bad as in worse than FL direct-fire weapons yes, but not this bad. They may be working as PGI intended (but then so is ECM) but they are not working as they were in BT.

Sarna:
"First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS."

Where are our "long range missiles" (they should actually have the same range as an ERPPC), that do full damage at all ranges but are "less accurate at close range" (IS version)?

[Demoncard]

Wolfways, on 19 July 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Ah, so you're talking about multiple launchers. It's like getting hit by PPC's...that spread the damage. I don't see the problem. Torso twist spreads the damage more.

You're not going to be able to twist in time. You're underestimating just how quick 500m/s is. 100 LRMs is still more than enough damage to cripple anything it hits, and with that speed, hitting is more or less secured, even dumbfired. 100 LRMs spread across everything would still hurt. A second shot would finish you off.

Wolfways, on 19 July 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

they are not working as they were in BT.

I want to roll dice for crits.

Edited by Demoncard, 19 July 2014 - 06:34 AM.

[Wolfways]

Demoncard, on 19 July 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

You're not going to be able to twist in time. You're underestimating just how quick 500m/s is. 100 LRMs is still more than enough damage to cripple anything it hits, and with that speed, that's secured, even dumbfired. 100 LRMs spread across everything would still hurt. A second shot would finish you off.

I wouldn't know. I doubt I've ever been hit by 100LRM's...and certainly never all at once.

Quote

I want to roll dice for crits.

No matter how much people like to say "MWO isn't TT", MWO is based on the TT game, even going so far as using the majority of the stats.
Even if you just transfer all the weapon stats straight over from TT to MWO as soon as you give weapons a "bullet speed" you start nerfing them. LRM's have the highest nerf of all weapons...160ms from instant (as all weapons were). Since then PGI have constantly been nerfing and buffing (mostly nerfs due to the whining) LRM's trying to find the right spot (which imo they never will).
Also, the non-spread damage weapons got a buff...you can aim them.
SRM's, SSRM's, and AC20 have slow speeds but that's okay because they are short ranged and it's hard to miss with them, but LRM's are (supposed to be) a long range weapon. 160ms is pathetic and it's hard, or even almost impossible to hit anyone at long range, especially when they also get a warning.

[Khobai]

LRMs need their impulse lowered at the very least. Why does a single LRM shake you three times more than an AC20? Their impulse is three times higher than it should be.