684 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Reticule shake when moving... mmmmmmmm... tasty.

Thunderchild... you stay at a Holiday Inn Express today?

[Thunder Child]

Kjudoon, on 26 July 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Reticule shake when moving... mmmmmmmm... tasty.

Thunderchild... you stay at a Holiday Inn Express today?

Um....no.... Why?

[Kjudoon]

Thunder Child, on 26 July 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

Um....no.... Why?

you got so smart! Such awesomeness in your posts tonight.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Thunder Child, on 26 July 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

The reason it will not die, is because both sides see themselves as being correct.
You have those that have no problem dealing with LRMs in their current incarnation, and thus see no reason to change them.
And you have those that are incapable of dealing with them in their current state, and need them nerfed to bring back "balance".
And then you have me, who believes that LRMs could do with some minor tweaks to make them still a viable weapon, but realises that the true culprit is the PP Long Range fire that will decimate any non-Sniper before they can get into range.

Since the introduction of HSR, this game has steadily been heading towards CoD: Mech Edition.

And it's why I believe that if we got a CoF style mechanic (not random placement, but rather a standardized spread) to punish high mobility long range fire, but still allow Pinpoint Stationary shots, a complete rework of ECM to prevent LRMs being turned off by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment, Konivings modifications to LRMs to balance them, adding the JUMP back into Jumpjets, and a lowering of the heat threshold, this game would start getting back to being a "Battletech Game" as advertised.

But that's just the rambling of an old TT player.



The only issue with Clan LRMs, is a lack of spread due to Streamfire, and that the LRM Impulse is too high. I believe that was in Konivings Fix, but if it isn't, then yes, LRM Impulse needs to be lowered, or at least, based on number of hits, rather than each missile rocking harder than an AC20

I had meant the plural "you" in my post about lettign the thread die and even then you were at least bringing something interesting to the thread instead of the same few people posting the same argument over and over and insulting anyone that disagrees with their view. It seems pretty much everyone is in agreement about ECM needing a rework and some sort of lrm rework. I have personally wanted a CoF mechanic for a while now so there is at least one small downside to pumping up the speed of mechs. It is essentially impossible to account for every single bump and sway of each gun going 80+ kph in rough hilly terrain or flying through the air regrardless of how well the targeting computers run, the work required increases exponentially with the required calculations and approximations. The real trick is making the cone of fire the correct degree- you should still be hit the target every time within optimum range with projectile weapon but maybe not exactly the component you were aiming at if you are going full speed in say a timberwolf and each weapon has an individual CoF such that they won't always hit the same location outside of brawling ranges. I feel that the projectile weapons (the ones with recoil) would have larger CoF than something like lasers. Maybe another way to differentiate pulse lasers and regular lasers is to allow pulse lasers to have near zero CoF. Again this CoF should only really be present at land speeds over ~40 kph, at longer ranges, and in the air at all times, to varying degrees of course.

[Thunder Child]

Indeed. "Everyone" seems to assume that when someone mentions Cone of Fire, they are referring to the CoD mechanic that makes your shots go all over the place, with no logic to it whatsoever. My take on it is just that it spaces your shots out equidistantly, dependent on where the weapon is mounted. So, high Right Torso, will shoot higher right. Low Left arm, will shoot lower, and lefter. Centre Torso will always fire dead straight, because that is the focal point of the mech.
So, moving along at a high throttle will cause your shots to distribute quite widely. Parking and waiting a whole second for your weapons to center will result in perfect pinpoint firing again. Not sure if Torso twisting should affect it, but if so, the effect should be negligible. (This should also, hopefully, not be as taxing on the HSR code as random shot distribution might be).
Another one of Konivings (Seriously, this guy needs to become the official Community Balance Guy for PGI) suggestions, was to have simulated movement on the crosshair, so that mech movement affects weapon fire. AND HE HAS A POINT! Have you ever followed a Jagermech (either in 3pv, or just following)? Notice how much those guns BOUNCE?!? And yet no effect on the crosshair. Amazing.

Edited by Thunder Child, 26 July 2014 - 11:54 PM.

[l33tworks]

Thunder Child, on 26 July 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

Indeed. "Everyone" seems to assume that when someone mentions Cone of Fire, they are referring to the CoD mechanic that makes your shots go all over the place, with no logic to it whatsoever. My take on it is just that it spaces your shots out equidistantly, dependent on where the weapon is mounted. So, high Right Torso, will shoot higher right. Low Left arm, will shoot lower, and lefter. Centre Torso will always fire dead straight, because that is the focal point of the mech.
So, moving along at a high throttle will cause your shots to distribute quite widely. Parking and waiting a whole second for your weapons to center will result in perfect pinpoint firing again. Not sure if Torso twisting should affect it, but if so, the effect should be negligible. (This should also, hopefully, not be as taxing on the HSR code as random shot distribution might be).
Another one of Konivings (Seriously, this guy needs to become the official Community Balance Guy for PGI) suggestions, was to have simulated movement on the crosshair, so that mech movement affects weapon fire. AND HE HAS A POINT! Have you ever followed a Jagermech (either in 3pv, or just following)? Notice how much those guns BOUNCE?!? And yet no effect on the crosshair. Amazing.

I like the sound of these canges, it would mean they can stop nerfing all the weapons are less precision damage will be able to be dealt in general and damage will be more spread ot.

BUT PLEASE FOR MERCY'S SAKE MAKE IT CLIENT SIDE, US POOR PEOPLE WITH BAD INTERNETZ JUST CANT HANDLE ANOTHER SERVER SIDE LAGGY FRUSTRATING GAME MECHANIC WHILE LOW PINGS LAUGH IN OUR FACES.

[Kjudoon]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 26 July 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

I had meant the plural "you" in my post about lettign the thread die and even then you were at least bringing something interesting to the thread instead of the same few people posting the same argument over and over and insulting anyone that disagrees with their view. It seems pretty much everyone is in agreement about ECM needing a rework and some sort of lrm rework. I have personally wanted a CoF mechanic for a while now so there is at least one small downside to pumping up the speed of mechs. It is essentially impossible to account for every single bump and sway of each gun going 80+ kph in rough hilly terrain or flying through the air regrardless of how well the targeting computers run, the work required increases exponentially with the required calculations and approximations. The real trick is making the cone of fire the correct degree- you should still be hit the target every time within optimum range with projectile weapon but maybe not exactly the component you were aiming at if you are going full speed in say a timberwolf and each weapon has an individual CoF such that they won't always hit the same location outside of brawling ranges. I feel that the projectile weapons (the ones with recoil) would have larger CoF than something like lasers. Maybe another way to differentiate pulse lasers and regular lasers is to allow pulse lasers to have near zero CoF. Again this CoF should only really be present at land speeds over ~40 kph, at longer ranges, and in the air at all times, to varying degrees of course.

Talk to the fellow LRMHatorz to stop whining and I'd have nothing to tear into the subject about.

l33tworks, on 27 July 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

I like the sound of these canges, it would mean they can stop nerfing all the weapons are less precision damage will be able to be dealt in general and damage will be more spread ot.

BUT PLEASE FOR MERCY'S SAKE MAKE IT CLIENT SIDE, US POOR PEOPLE WITH BAD INTERNETZ JUST CANT HANDLE ANOTHER SERVER SIDE LAGGY FRUSTRATING GAME MECHANIC WHILE LOW PINGS LAUGH IN OUR FACES.

Hate to tell you this, but PGI is making this all server side to diminish the cheaters ability to wreck the game. We're not supposed to talk about whether it's successful or not. Or that it even can or does happen.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 July 2014 - 12:10 AM.

[l33tworks]

Kjudoon, on 27 July 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

Talk to the fellow LRMHatorz to stop whining and I'd have nothing to tear into the subject about.


Hate to tell you this, but PGI is making this all server side to diminish the cheaters ability to wreck the game. We're not supposed to talk about whether it's successful or not. Or that it even can or does happen.

Great, so that means we have to wait at LEAST another another 270ms longer for the guns to stabilise than everyone else, technically speaking , or in real world terms with jitter, fluctuating network conditions, fps, giving it a little longer to be sure, reaction times, more like an extra second longer each and every time we fire. Great.

At least give us our own ping based que. Seriously does the matchmaker even try to sync you up with people of similar ping?

Edited by l33tworks, 27 July 2014 - 12:18 AM.

[Thunder Child]

I feel your pain. Being based in New Zealand, even with the super-expensive 50/100 Fibre Plan I just bought into, I still top out at 240ms at the best of times. Still, I think it would be a balanced way to limit the effect of Pinpoint. Good Players will still be good. Bad Players will still be Bad. And players like me will have to get good, instead of just jumping on the Meta-Wagon and farming easy kills with PP FLD.

[Mazzyplz]

nerf narc!!

it's single shot from a light mech is more powerful than a misery alpha strike.


what's the counter to it? you get narcd and it's gg - do you chalk it up to having the bad luck of being narcd?

the game shouldn't be about luck. it's fine if there is huge alpha strikes from huge mechs - that makes sense; at least they move slow and you can evade them

a single kit fox puts narc on you and you're DEAD. unless you're in a map like river city but in tourmaline and specially caustic it is insta kill

at least with the TAG they have to sit there and keep the reticle on you - again, nerf narc

[Yokaiko]

Mazzyplz, on 27 July 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

nerf narc!!

it's single shot from a light mech is more powerful than a misery alpha strike.


what's the counter to it? you get narcd and it's gg - do you chalk it up to having the bad luck of being narcd?

the game shouldn't be about luck. it's fine if there is huge alpha strikes from huge mechs - that makes sense; at least they move slow and you can evade them

a single kit fox puts narc on you and you're DEAD. unless you're in a map like river city but in tourmaline and specially caustic it is insta kill

at least with the TAG they have to sit there and keep the reticle on you - again, nerf narc

You should try cover.

[Mavairo]

lmao it's gg if you're narced.
Now that's just hilarious.

Narc's counter is AMS. Not even in regards to the LRMs that will be coming themselves but the actual narc launcher. AMS can pretty reliably defeat the narc rocket. Multiple AMSes make a farce out of narc rockets.

Even with Narc, LRMs are very far from a guaranteed damage generator. Even with TAG to go with it.
Most of the maps Including Tourmaline, (especially tourmaline. It's probably the best designed of PGI's Big Maps) have plenty of places you can safely nestle in against the storm of LRMS. Then you advance, to a new piece of cover, closer to the enemy, take shelter again if necessary and continue onwards.
Standing out by the craters in the middle of the map, will get you killed. As it should for you being a Dumb Ass. There are no less than 4 major overlooks that you can be Sniped To Death along the craters in tourmaline, and you'll die much quicker from GR+PPC fire than you will LRM fire standing out there.

Narc gauranteed kill lmao

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Yokaiko, on 27 July 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

You should try cover.

Maps need a serious revamping before that argument works. Not every location will be ideal, but when pilots actually USE the cover they are given and the missiles clip through it anyways, EFF that noise.

Edited by lockwoodx, 27 July 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Mavairo, on 27 July 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

lmao it's gg if you're narced.
Now that's just hilarious.

Narc's counter is AMS. Not even in regards to the LRMs that will be coming themselves but the actual narc launcher. AMS can pretty reliably defeat the narc rocket. Multiple AMSes make a farce out of narc rockets.

Even with Narc, LRMs are very far from a guaranteed damage generator. Even with TAG to go with it.
Most of the maps Including Tourmaline, (especially tourmaline. It's probably the best designed of PGI's Big Maps) have plenty of places you can safely nestle in against the storm of LRMS. Then you advance, to a new piece of cover, closer to the enemy, take shelter again if necessary and continue onwards.
Standing out by the craters in the middle of the map, will get you killed. As it should for you being a Dumb Ass. There are no less than 4 major overlooks that you can be Sniped To Death along the craters in tourmaline, and you'll die much quicker from GR+PPC fire than you will LRM fire standing out there.

Narc gauranteed kill lmao

not gonna credit the ignorant response from the first clan wolf member with a response; next!

- Narc's counter is AMS

that would be fine if ams actually worked as it should, except it doesn't shoot down missiles reliably for high pingers as it does for low pingers, it is bugged as betty's missile warning is bugged

on top of that how do you make your team bring AMS? it seems you have figured out how to control other people's loadouts, share this secret with me! i usually play solo, how do you do it

some people say try cover and then a few pages back they tell you to go flank from the side and kill the boats - which one is it?
i am flanking from the side when a kit fox narcs me and in less than ten seconds my assault mech is down

i guess you guys use a magical type of cover - a hill that walks along with you to flanking maneuvers

how many places with proper height cover are there in caustic valley by the way? could you list them please? where the arc from LRM does not reach you?

the base of the caldera (temporarily until they step 200 meter around caldera), spawn- inside the buildings area. and the big rock to the side of each spawn. 3?

very good i will try to stick to those 3 and not move out for the entire match, my srm mech will be damn useful in those scenarios

thanks for the genius advice bro, you truly are the guru of mwo

Edited by Mazzyplz, 27 July 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[Mavairo]

Mazzyplz, on 27 July 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

not gonna credit the ignorant response from the first clan wolf member with a response; next!

- Narc's counter is AMS

that would be fine if ams actually worked as it should, except it doesn't shoot down missiles reliably for high pingers as it does for low pingers, it is bugged as betty's missile warning is bugged

on top of that how do you make your team bring AMS? it seems you have figured out how to control other people's loadouts, share this secret with me! i usually play solo, how do you do it

It is still enough to fire down a Narc even on a bad ping, unless they're hitting you from point blank range. Which if they are, legging them should be a trivial matter. Getting narced, and then nestling up by the tall shards, and not hitting you with a single LRM while they LOST a mech, is hardly a fair trade.

Seek out the other players on your team that do bring AMS. They aren't terribly hard to spot, either by the little turret (or turrets) sticking out ontop, or because of the bullets that will fire off out of their mechs STs or shoulders.

Two guys with AMS are fairly safe from being narced if they stay together and play intelligently.

[Kjudoon]

l33tworks, on 27 July 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

Great, so that means we have to wait at LEAST another another 270ms longer for the guns to stabilise than everyone else, technically speaking , or in real world terms with jitter, fluctuating network conditions, fps, giving it a little longer to be sure, reaction times, more like an extra second longer each and every time we fire. Great.

At least give us our own ping based que. Seriously does the matchmaker even try to sync you up with people of similar ping?

I would love to see PGI give you guys your Asian and European servers. For you guys, HSR gives lag shield from us, but the control is so garbage, I know why we don't have more people playing from that neck of the world. It would probably mean our unit would lose a few players, which I would hate, but then they could play their game better. AFAIK ping is not factored into matchmaking. I am fortunately that my ping rarely goes above 60, but I am cursed with a similar problem of a low end machine so I have FPS problems so if there gets too much graphic complexity, I'm watching a slide show in social studies from the mid 1980's. (If you know what I'm talking about. If you don't, BOY you're young and lucky.)
As for splitting up queues even more... I'm worried our player base is too small because of the difficulty to learn the game, and the too often mismatches in Elo/skill/groups are keeping them away. Hence why the ideas of a true targeting computer and nerfing the precision game have been put forth by me and others as well as why LRMs need to be able to compete better against or at least TIE with the current Direct Fire mechlords of the battlefield.

@Lockwoodx

The "Revamping" of the maps project would be essentially replacement of the maps from scratch. The way Cryengine works, or at least how PGI has this set up, these are huge assets that take months to create, and to go back and just 'plop in more cover' is not drag and drop, it's a huge undertaking apparently and not something you can do in an afternoon.

Also, cover exists on every map. I know both because I use it and because I get stopped by it. I see more clipping errors that block LRMs but have DF holes through them (With the exception of Advanced Zoom which provides clipping errors to EVERYTHING it seems). Something that REALLY needs to happen is instead of when you die, your death scene shows you where the killer was and how he shot you. Not just spinning around your spectacular wreck.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 July 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Mavairo, on 27 July 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

It is still enough to fire down a Narc even on a bad ping, unless they're hitting you from point blank range. Which if they are, legging them should be a trivial matter. Getting narced, and then nestling up by the tall shards, and not hitting you with a single LRM while they LOST a mech, is hardly a fair trade.

Seek out the other players on your team that do bring AMS. They aren't terribly hard to spot, either by the little turret (or turrets) sticking out ontop, or because of the bullets that will fire off out of their mechs STs or shoulders.

Two guys with AMS are fairly safe from being narced if they stay together and play intelligently.

It is still enough to fire down a Narc even on a bad ping


are you assuming i am talking about a single lrm boat? because i routinely see multiple missile boats and one AMS is 0.05% better than no ams if you are narcd in that situation
now share that secret with me also please how do you make the enemy just bring a single lrm boat that your ams can handle when narcd

Edited by Mazzyplz, 27 July 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Mazzy, can you share me the secret of getting only one ECM mech in a match? I regularly face off against 2+ ECM and 8+ AMS units on various mechs.

Btw, I never pack AMS because I have cover, speed and need the tonnage for better things.

Edited by Kjudoon, 27 July 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[Mavairo]

Mazzyplz, on 27 July 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

It is still enough to fire down a Narc even on a bad ping


are you assuming i am talking about a single lrm boat? because i routinely see multiple missile boats and one AMS is 0.05% better than no ams if you are narcd in that situation
now share that secret with me also please how do you make the enemy just bring a single lrm boat that your ams can handle when narcd

Your AMS can shoot down the Narc Rocket itself.
One LRM boat or 12 it doesn't matter, if you aren't standing out in the middle of yonder open and low terrain. AMS is there to lighten the blow, (5 rockets of each volley) not mitigate it entirely. What it does do, is give yourself and your allies, a little breathing room as you advance cover to cover, to get to grips with the enemy and wreck their faces.

By the way AMS also works on Streaks and on SRMs too. Though not as effectively. I carry AMS to deal with Narc Rockets, Streaks, and SRMs. I rarely get hit by enough LRMs to really matter. Brawling Rockets on the other hand....

Edited by Mavairo, 27 July 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Kjudoon, on 27 July 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Mazzy, can you share me the secret of getting only one ECM mech in a match? I regularly face off against 2+ ECM and 8+ AMS units on various mechs.

Btw, I never pack AMS because I have cover, speed and need the tonnage for better things.

my secret is to press launch and i get no ecm. it is rare that i get 1 ecm in my team - what's yours for gettin 2+?????

also i am waiting for you guys to list the places in caustic where you can get at least adequate cover from LRM with the height

i mentioned 3, that's it. are you going to say 2 line? because that's not safe from the lrm barrage

i have ams and i guess it sometimes doesn't shoot down the narc, i have it in all my mechs