335 replies to this topic

[R Razor]

Cimarb, on 20 June 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

I don't have a problem with restrictions on what mechs you can use in CW, as long as it makes sense. It doesn't make sense that Clans can use whatever Clan mechs they want, regardless of WHICH Clan they are in, just like it doesn't make sense that Houses can use whatever House mechs they want, regardless of WHICH House they are in.

I really don't think it is viable either way, since most of us currently talking have 50+ mechs, and forcing us to use certain mechs is going to be a pain in the butt.

Instead, CW needs to incorporate Repair and Rearm. If you are a House unit and want to use a mech that is produced by a manufacturer in your House's "control" (i.e. you own the planet), then you have normal repair and rearm costs. If you instead choose to use a mech produced by a manufacturer from a rival House, you pay exorbitant amounts to both repair it and rearm it. If you then use a Clan mech, you pay ludicrous amounts to repair and rearm it.

That way, you have complete freedom to use whatever mech you would like, but controlling planets ACTUALLY MATTERS. Don't want to pay a crapton to repair and rearm your mech, buy American! (aka your current faction)

I'd be all for restrictions on what mechs you can use being based on what house or clan you belong to..........as well as repair and re-arm. I'd even go so far as to support a system wherein if you get the kill on an enemy mech AND your team wins the battle, the mech you got the kill on becomes a playable mech whether it's of your house or clan or not.

That is immersion, something this game currently sorely lacks. That is Battletech / Mechwarrior, and that is what I would truly like to see this game live up to.

[AntharPrime]

Another 180? They previously said that players that paid real money for Clan mechs would not be penalized for using them in CW.

[Roland]

AntharPrime, on 20 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Another 180? They previously said that players that paid real money for Clan mechs would not be penalized for using them in CW.

Yeah, but that was BEFORE people paid money for them.

Now they have the money.

[R Razor]

QQ...........you aren't being penalized, you can use your clan mechs in CW, they aren't stopping you. You just have to use them as a test tube baby and not an Innersphere Mechwarrior. I'm sorry that concept is so hard to wrap your mind around and accept. Give it a couple of years, maybe by then us freebirth will have pimpslapped enough of you test tubers that PGI can justify allowing low life freebirth to pilot a clan mech as part of an IS unit.

[Colonel Cody]

Hanse: To my Beloved New Bride Melissa; I give you 'THE CAPPELLAN CONFEDERATION!
Max: SAYWHAT!!!!???


This Wedding Reception this is an example of WHY you should awlays read the background information.

[Arguss10]

Community Warfare was always going to be faction against faction. That also means restrictions of mechs for certain factions. Clan mechs are for Clan factions. It is not until years later when the clans invaded was when clan mechs were used by the inner sphere. Those people who bought the clan packages should know that. I know that me being in House Davison that I will be restricted to their manufactured mechs and close affiliated factions. That's what Community Warfare is all about. I'm looking forward to this development .

[Ryue]

N0MAD, on 18 June 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

So what happens if a member is recruited, puts into the Group fund and then thrown out what happens to his contribution, or the leader decides to raid the bank and leaves?
I ask this because a system very similar to this is in place on STO, it is widely abused.

There are ways to circumvent this (STO has that in btw and I hope MWO will too): You can assign how much from the guildbank a given rank can take per day.

[CyclonerM]

Cimarb, on 20 June 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

I don't have a problem with restrictions on what mechs you can use in CW, as long as it makes sense. It doesn't make sense that Clans can use whatever Clan mechs they want, regardless of WHICH Clan they are in, just like it doesn't make sense that Houses can use whatever House mechs they want, regardless of WHICH House they are in.

I really don't think it is viable either way, since most of us currently talking have 50+ mechs, and forcing us to use certain mechs is going to be a pain in the butt.

Instead, CW needs to incorporate Repair and Rearm. If you are a House unit and want to use a mech that is produced by a manufacturer in your House's "control" (i.e. you own the planet), then you have normal repair and rearm costs. If you instead choose to use a mech produced by a manufacturer from a rival House, you pay exorbitant amounts to both repair it and rearm it. If you then use a Clan mech, you pay ludicrous amounts to repair and rearm it.

That way, you have complete freedom to use whatever mech you would like, but controlling planets ACTUALLY MATTERS. Don't want to pay a crapton to repair and rearm your mech, buy American! (aka your current faction)

I am all for restrictions but there is both for House and Clan units the usual justification for having 'Mechs manufactered by other factions. In the Successor States salvage could bring Panthers or Dragons in Davion hands or an old Catapult in Marik hands. In the Clans even more so: gifts, trades and most of all isorla (spoils of war) and Trials of Possession make every OmniMech and 2nd line 'Mech common enough among many Clans.

This means that not being able to use a Timberwolf if you are a warrior of Clan Jade Falcon makes little sense as they actually had a few of them (of course not as many as the Wolves). Here is where Repair & Rearm should come back: the more common is a 'Mech in your faction (basically manufactered by your faction aka you currently control the factories that build it) the less you will pay for R&R and vice versa.

[Belorion]

AntharPrime, on 20 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Another 180? They previously said that players that paid real money for Clan mechs would not be penalized for using them in CW.

No they didnt. I have been asking for a clarification on this very point from the day they announced the clan packs. There was 0 information on it other than a pod cast where it was stated that in CW clans would use clan mechs and vica versa.

Which is why I didnt buy a pack. If you thought something else it wasnt because thats what they stated.

I posted several threads about it. No one paid any attention to the issue.

At this point I really dont feel bad for anyone. They had the chance to demand the information before they purchased.

[wanderer]

Cimarb, on 19 June 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

As long as it is done at the House/Clan level, I am fine with that. I don't want the break to be at the Clan/IS level, though. The line being drawn between Clan and IS is what gets my goat, not the line itself.

I want community warfare to matter, and that means my faction/unit needs to matter AND what planets we currently control. Just because I am a Clanner, why should I not be able to use an Inner Sphere mech when I control the planet that it is made on? If I am a mercenary unit working for House Davion, why would I be able to use a mech made and used exclusively by the Draconis Combine? If you give the excuse that House Davion all aged the mech, you have also lost the reasoning for the restriction from Clan mech usage, since we are already fighting them as well.

The reason is simple, and it is repairs.

In 3050, there are zero suppliers of repair parts for Clan machines in the Inner Sphere. None. Any parts slapped into a Clan machine by an IS unit had to be salvaged from another Clan unit. And Battlemechs are hangar queens at an epic level, Clan ones even more so. Without parts, the average Clan 'Mech would be dysfunctional inside of a fight or two.

Now, you put an R&R system in that lets IS units hack together a Clan 'Mech from salvaged parts and repair them from same? I'm all for it, and considering the base cost of Clan gear, I expect it'll be hideously expensive for non-Clan factions to maintain one even with salvage- especially since you're frequently going to take more damage than you get back in cannibalized parts from anything but a Clan opponent.

As for Clan units using IS gear? Call it fluff if you want, but most Clanners would be shamed beyond belief for getting stuck in an IS Mech as a first choice. It's basically saying the warrior in question wasn't worthy of actually piloting a real 'Mech and was stuck with discarded IS garbage instead. IS units sharing from the same pool at least have the process of centuries of trade, salvage, and "this works if you don't actually have that" from four Succession Wars worth of combat and inter-state exchange to allow for other factions to use their designs.

[Cimarb]

R Razor, on 20 June 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

I'd be all for restrictions on what mechs you can use being based on what house or clan you belong to..........as well as repair and re-arm. I'd even go so far as to support a system wherein if you get the kill on an enemy mech AND your team wins the battle, the mech you got the kill on becomes a playable mech whether it's of your house or clan or not.

That is immersion, something this game currently sorely lacks. That is Battletech / Mechwarrior, and that is what I would truly like to see this game live up to.

100% agree. Totally in favor of the salvage system, though I think it should be a chance by component ("gotta collect em all" to use - maybe by omnipod, or all the way down to by item). Make us work for it. In fact, make it be required that the component has to be INTACT at the end of the match to get! (makes taking out legs instead of torsos important, for instance).

So much cool stuff they could do with this...

AntharPrime, on 20 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Another 180? They previously said that players that paid real money for Clan mechs would not be penalized for using them in CW.

As was already mentioned: they didn't say that. They said that anyone could use any mechs regardless of faction, and said that everyone could participate in CW, but they did NOT say them together.

CyclonerM, on 21 June 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

I am all for restrictions but there is both for House and Clan units the usual justification for having 'Mechs manufactered by other factions. In the Successor States salvage could bring Panthers or Dragons in Davion hands or an old Catapult in Marik hands. In the Clans even more so: gifts, trades and most of all isorla (spoils of war) and Trials of Possession make every OmniMech and 2nd line 'Mech common enough among many Clans.

This means that not being able to use a Timberwolf if you are a warrior of Clan Jade Falcon makes little sense as they actually had a few of them (of course not as many as the Wolves). Here is where Repair & Rearm should come back: the more common is a 'Mech in your faction (basically manufactered by your faction aka you currently control the factories that build it) the less you will pay for R&R and vice versa.

Salvage/trade excuses are just as valid for House vs. Clan arguments as House vs. House and Clan vs. Clan. I have fought in nearly a hundred matches against other Clans, both in my own Clan mechs and my IS mechs, so I can justify a lot of salvage already.

I completely agree about the repair and rearm, though. This, and a salvage system as I quoted Razor above, are VERY important if we are to have a proper CW with mech restrictions.

wanderer, on 21 June 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

The reason is simple, and it is repairs.

In 3050, there are zero suppliers of repair parts for Clan machines in the Inner Sphere. None. Any parts slapped into a Clan machine by an IS unit had to be salvaged from another Clan unit. And Battlemechs are hangar queens at an epic level, Clan ones even more so. Without parts, the average Clan 'Mech would be dysfunctional inside of a fight or two.

Now, you put an R&R system in that lets IS units hack together a Clan 'Mech from salvaged parts and repair them from same? I'm all for it, and considering the base cost of Clan gear, I expect it'll be hideously expensive for non-Clan factions to maintain one even with salvage- especially since you're frequently going to take more damage than you get back in cannibalized parts from anything but a Clan opponent.

As for Clan units using IS gear? Call it fluff if you want, but most Clanners would be shamed beyond belief for getting stuck in an IS Mech as a first choice. It's basically saying the warrior in question wasn't worthy of actually piloting a real 'Mech and was stuck with discarded IS garbage instead. IS units sharing from the same pool at least have the process of centuries of trade, salvage, and "this works if you don't actually have that" from four Succession Wars worth of combat and inter-state exchange to allow for other factions to use their designs.

Completely agree, again. R&R is paramount, and some sort of salvage system needs to be implemented if there are mech restrictions.

Your "Clanners using IS gear" idea is only valid when you consider that Clan gear was supposed to be far "better" than IS gear. Now that it is not, that argument doesn't have as much weight as it previously did. In fact, with the current AC setup, Clan units would probably prefer to have slightly heavier IS versions on their Clan mechs due to FLD...

[Alaskan Nobody]

R Razor, on 20 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

....Stuff

I know that absolutely none of the video games have been canon
I know that all of the video games have done stuff that contradicts canon


BUT NO!

HOW DARE THEY PUT NON CANON INTO THIS ONE!!!

Is not going to carry your point very far.

Edit: Clarification:
Mech2: some unnamed (though possibly Khan at that point) Jade Falcon warrior killed Morgan Kell

Mech3: Clan warriors running around in mechs such as the Avatar - which was just being developed in the IS.

Mech4:......do I really need to list examples for this one?

There are reasons none of the games are canon.
Getting upset because the developer goes against canon, in any way, is foolish at best

Edited by Shar Wolf, 21 June 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[AntharPrime]

Belorion, on 21 June 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

No they didnt. I have been asking for a clarification on this very point from the day they announced the clan packs. There was 0 information on it other than a pod cast where it was stated that in CW clans would use clan mechs and vica versa.

Which is why I didnt buy a pack. If you thought something else it wasnt because thats what they stated.

I posted several threads about it. No one paid any attention to the issue.

At this point I really dont feel bad for anyone. They had the chance to demand the information before they purchased.

I did get a response from a dev but thanks to the poor search engine on this site I can't find it again. In a thread about this same subject I mentioned that it didn't make sense for the devs to penalize paying players in CW. I suggested that I thought it would make more sense to allow any mech but give bonuses for using faction specific mechs. A dev chimed in and said that it was exactly what they were looking to implement in CW. This would make more sense since by comparison to tabletop, MWO only has a fraction of the mech available to each individual faction. Limiting the mechs would seriously limit the tactics players can use in game.

[Belorion]

AntharPrime, on 21 June 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

I did get a response from a dev but thanks to the poor search engine on this site I can't find it again. In a thread about this same subject I mentioned that it didn't make sense for the devs to penalize paying players in CW. I suggested that I thought it would make more sense to allow any mech but give bonuses for using faction specific mechs. A dev chimed in and said that it was exactly what they were looking to implement in CW. This would make more sense since by comparison to tabletop, MWO only has a fraction of the mech available to each individual faction. Limiting the mechs would seriously limit the tactics players can use in game.

Did they say that specifically about the Clan Mechs, or about just IS mechs from other factions, because there is a difference. Any IS mech was at least obtainable cross faction if rare.

[AntharPrime]

Belorion, on 21 June 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

Did they say that specifically about the Clan Mechs, or about just IS mechs from other factions, because there is a difference. Any IS mech was at least obtainable cross faction if rare.

Yes, it was about the Clan mechs. That was the question in the thread.

[anonymous161]

cw is so far in the future at this point that it's debatable if it will ever come out anyways.

[Quincy McAllister]

Quote
On a side note, I've seen the rumblings of people thinking that mixed teams of Clan and IS 'Mechs will be the norm from here on out. This is not the case. Faction (IS/Clan) combat is a big part of Community Warfare as are the skirmishes between the Houses themselves and the Clans themselves. This requires additional work to the database, player data and match making systems and will come out at a later time.

This is indeed important. Many players have IS and Clan mechs in their inventory and probably like to Play them both in CW. It will be a hard choice for those players if a unit is tied to either IS or clan, and then players can only use IS or Clan mechs in CW (although stricltly according to BT lore).

One workable solution might be that one Player can be amembe of one IS and one clan unit. The obvious consequence will then be that these units may never fight againt each other.

Edited by Quincy McAllister, 22 June 2014 - 03:56 AM.

[R Razor]

Quincy McAllister, on 22 June 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

Quote

On a side note, I've seen the rumblings of people thinking that mixed teams of Clan and IS 'Mechs will be the norm from here on out. This is not the case. Faction (IS/Clan) combat is a big part of Community Warfare as are the skirmishes between the Houses themselves and the Clans themselves. This requires additional work to the database, player data and match making systems and will come out at a later time.



This is indeed important. Many players have IS and Clan mechs in their inventory and probably like to Play them both in CW. It will be a hard choice for those players if a unit is tied to either IS or clan, and then players can only use IS or Clan mechs in CW (although stricltly according to BT lore).

One workable solution might be that one Player can be amembe of one IS and one clan unit. The obvious consequence will then be that these units may never fight againt each other.

You are absolutley correct, PGI should throw out all pretense that this is a Battletech based game and instead allow those that didn't do their homework to utilize what they want, when they want, and how they want........after all, if they don't then the whining will reach a cresendo and the Earth will stop rotating on its axis.

Or..........people could accept that this game is based (however loosely) on an IP with a rich history that MANY folks followed and are fans of, and wait the requisite amount of time until Clan Tech is more readily available to Inner Sphere Mechwarriors and stop all the whining and hand wringing about how they want it and they want it right now.

I urge that particular crowd to head over to Titanfall or Hawken if all they want to do is shoot stuff in giant stompy robots and stop watering down this particular attempt at providing a real Battletech Universe game.

[Belorion]

R Razor, on 22 June 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

You are absolutley correct, PGI should throw out all pretense that this is a Battletech based game and instead allow those that didn't do their homework to utilize what they want, when they want, and how they want........after all, if they don't then the whining will reach a cresendo and the Earth will stop rotating on its axis.

Or..........people could accept that this game is based (however loosely) on an IP with a rich history that MANY folks followed and are fans of, and wait the requisite amount of time until Clan Tech is more readily available to Inner Sphere Mechwarriors and stop all the whining and hand wringing about how they want it and they want it right now.

I urge that particular crowd to head over to Titanfall or Hawken if all they want to do is shoot stuff in giant stompy robots and stop watering down this particular attempt at providing a real Battletech Universe game.

I agree, they need to pick one and stick with it. Trying to placate both crowds will just lose both crowds.

I for one will most likely lose interest in this game is it moves too far away from Battletech.

AntharPrime, on 21 June 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

Yes, it was about the Clan mechs. That was the question in the thread.

Hmm... I missed that then. All I had to go off of was the pod cast with Russ and the vlog with the devs talking about 10 v 12 which both seemed to lend themselves to Clan and IS being segregated.

Again they needed an earlier and more definitive statement on their intentions.

[Wildstreak]

What if some group wants to represent a second line garrison unit for the Clans?
These usually do not use OmniMechs and the known second line clan Mechs are not in game, I do not even think they would be since their # of variants does not meet standards of 3+ by lore.
Why not allow Clanners to use IS Mechs for this same as how IS will eventually be able to use Clan equipment?