556 replies to this topic

[Hobgoblin I]

IraqiWalker, on 19 July 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

You're still cherry picking.

You forget that the stalker can CHOOSE not to do that silly loadout. You forget that the stalker has INFINITELY better hitboxes than the Warhawk, and that it can switch engines, upgrades, internal structure slots, and heatsink amount. The stalker can carry a lot more firepower than the Warhawk any day of the week. While the Warhawk will have more mobility for less firepower.

Why is it that people always structure their arguments so at least one party is completely stupid?


Clan tech is not superior my cherry picking friend. In fact, I'm willing to go down with you point by point and show you exactly how wrong you are. The point made by the person you're quoting is still valid. Why are you not complaining about the AWS vs. STK comparison? The reason the complaints are actually being made is because the clan mechs are still not available to people. That's why.

Not to mention your grasp on the concept of balance is very tenuous. You seem to think that balance means everything should work the same way. That clan DHS should be 3 slots like IS DHS. When in fact 2 slot Hardwired fixed slotted DHS is a valid tradeoff.

cute, but flat out wrong. Since anyone engaging in these types of combat will be doing that around <700 Meters anyways. Good try on the range difference, wrong tactic to try it with.

I would like to believe you are actually reading and comprehending the posts you quote, but that doesn't seem the case.

When discussing the meritts of a large laser laserboat, stalker vs. warhawk, talking about the lasers isn't cherry picking. It is the discussion. You quoted me, so you can see that I mentioned the engine size and 2x heatsinks, yet you say I forgot them. It would be easier to structure my arguement so one party didn't look completely stupid if you would stop being completely stupid.

The topic of this thread is "clan tech is OP or are you guys blind", not clan tech is pay to win. When they become available for C-bills is irrelevant. Your argument the the smaller slotted heat sinks is plain disingenuous. You are proving thet you are the one with no concept of balance. If the range advantage clantech has is the "wrong tactic" to argue when discussing the performance of a mech chasis, please tell all of the clan mechs out there to stop shooting me at ranges over 700m.

Your heat and ghost heat arguements are simply wrong. You discount weight, slot size and range and focus only on beam duration. You can't read numbers on a chart and see that 15 is the same as 15. You quote people and make arguements taht have nothing to do with what they said. You are simply a poor spokesman for a lost cause.

[Hobgoblin I]

IraqiWalker, on 19 July 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

That is where you are wrong sir. Pay for an advantage is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win guarantees a win.

If you have played all of these games you say, you know the term pay2win doesn't literally mean paying money to guarantee a victory. You are either posting just to get a rise out of people or you are a complete idiot. Either way I now feel dirty for ever responding to you.

[Papaspud]

Doesn't really matter that the clan mechs are OP- and they are, the game really sucks the way it stands right now. No new maps, MM eats balls- tired of being on teams where the average score is less than 200-heck less than 100, very boring- how many times can you play the same old crap. I can't play more than a couple of matches before I realize this isn't fun anymore.

No new maps= BORING!!

[Sandpit]

Nik Reaper, on 19 July 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well you do realise that if R&R was still a thing , yes it would be a blatant PTW?

which is relevant how? R&R isn't and hasn't been for over a year, There's no point in even bringing that up...

Nik Reaper, on 19 July 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well you do realise that if R&R was still a thing , yes it would be a blatant PTW?
Clans will need a bit more of ballance to not overpower IS ( wich they should in lore , but so bad for gameplay unless 10v12 .. torn on that ) when Clan vs IS gets here.
The numbers and the experiance so far shows they have a tangible advantage at this point , and sence you have to pay to play them right now , they kinda are pay for an advantage , yes this game doesn't have gold ammo but this is kinda like that , at least it's a time limited advantage , but still hope somehow IS get's back to par.

actually
the numbers say otherwise. There's a great thread floating around that actually breaks all the numbers down
DPS
Kills
Survival
W/L

all of that plus more and it shows that Clans do a bit more in damage but IS actually get more kills and the W/L was about even. I just don't see them as an op or an advantage. They ahve their pros and cons just like IS mechs do. There's no advantage to them over IS mechs other than perceived advantages.

What I mean by that is that you can't just jump into a clan mech and win "because"
If they were truly OP, IS mechs and pilots couldn't compete with them. There wouldn't be a close W/L
Every time a clan mech faced off against an IS mech, the clan mech would win
That's not the case here.

[Mcgral18]

I'm kind of curious...what is the average warhawk ERLL boat?

Likewise for Stalker boat. I kinda want to calculate the cooling, and compare the 7 VS 8.5 heat.

Does it make a significant difference?

[Sandpit]

Papaspud, on 19 July 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Doesn't really matter that the clan mechs are OP- and they are, the game really sucks the way it stands right now. No new maps, MM eats balls- tired of being on teams where the average score is less than 200-heck less than 100, very boring- how many times can you play the same old crap. I can't play more than a couple of matches before I realize this isn't fun anymore.

No new maps= BORING!!

then maybe you should find a map thread (like the one I started) and voice your opinion about the lack of maps there?

Mcgral18, on 19 July 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'm kind of curious...what is the average warhawk ERLL boat?

Likewise for Stalker boat. I kinda want to calculate the cooling, and compare the 7 VS 8.5 heat.

Does it make a significant difference?

for that, seriously, check out my clan mech throwdown thread. There's a lot of different builds in there.
One thing to note, DPS is not a good metric to use when talking about balance. At least not as the sole metric. Or are you wanting to know time to overheat and such?

[Yokaiko]

Mcgral18, on 19 July 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'm kind of curious...what is the average warhawk ERLL boat?

Likewise for Stalker boat. I kinda want to calculate the cooling, and compare the 7 VS 8.5 heat.

Does it make a significant difference?

Not sure I haven't run a LLAS Stalker in forever.
The Hawk is like 5 llas, and then TC and heatsinks to taste. I think you can max out at like 28 DHS, its still hot as hell.

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 19 July 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

for that, seriously, check out my clan mech throwdown thread. There's a lot of different builds in there.
One thing to note, DPS is not a good metric to use when talking about balance. At least not as the sole metric. Or are you wanting to know time to overheat and such?

Yep, dissipation, capacity and heat generated, along with the low heat option of the isLLs.

[Yokaiko]

Mcgral18, on 19 July 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

Yep, dissipation, capacity and heat generated, along with the low heat option of the isLLs.

That is going to vary on build. Since you can actually change the engine on the stalker its a lot more variable. The Warhawk gives you the option of tossing three (no **** total) heatsinks for the targeting computer.

....That TC makes llas pretty nasty though

[Hobgoblin I]

Mcgral18, on 19 July 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'm kind of curious...what is the average warhawk ERLL boat?

Likewise for Stalker boat. I kinda want to calculate the cooling, and compare the 7 VS 8.5 heat.

Does it make a significant difference?

I run a 5 LL stalker laserboat (to me having 5 is better as you can chain fire two quick shots, break haf a second and repeat with no real downtime). I don't know if that is considered the norm or not.
But in comparison I have an ams, one ton of ammo, 5 LL, 22 2x heat sinks and a standard 280 with 512 armor. Cooling is 43% and max sustained DPS is 4.55. Optimized or not it does very well.

A clone build on smurfy's I made in the warhawk was 5 CERLL's, AMS and 1 ton of ammo, the clan XL 340, 26 clan 2x heat sinks, 518 armor and the clan mrk 5 targeting computer. It has a cooling of 47% and a max DPS of 5.57.

if any of that helps.

[Yokaiko]

Hobgoblin I, on 19 July 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

I run a 5 LL stalker laserboat (to me having 5 is better as you can chain fire two quick shots, break haf a second and repeat with no real downtime). I don't know if that is considered the norm or not.
But in comparison I have an ams, one ton of ammo, 5 LL, 22 2x heat sinks and a standard 280 with 512 armor. Cooling is 43% and max sustained DPS is 4.55. Optimized or not it does very well.

A clone build on smurfy's I made in the warhawk was 5 CERLL's, AMS and 1 ton of ammo, the clan XL 340, 26 clan 2x heat sinks, 518 armor and the clan mrk 5 targeting computer. It has a cooling of 47% and a max DPS of 5.57.

if any of that helps.

Can you link the smurfies?

Time to overheat and sustained DPS are the big numbers.

[Hobgoblin I]

Yokaiko, on 19 July 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Can you link the smurfies?

Time to overheat and sustained DPS are the big numbers.

I've never made an account on smurfy's so I don't think I can save loadouts...can I?

[Roland]

IraqiWalker, on 19 July 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

That is where you are wrong sir. Pay for an advantage is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win guarantees a win. Play any of the thousands of games on Kongregate like Wartune, and you will understand what I am talking about.

Time savers, and advantage are not the same as pay to win. Of the two I mentioned the clan packages fall under &quot;time savers&quot;. That's it.

OK, so you don't understand the definition of p2w in the game industry, and reject the correct definition when it is explained to you.

Further discussion seems pointless then.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 19 July 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

Yep, dissipation, capacity and heat generated, along with the low heat option of the isLLs.

depends on which chassis you want to use. The Banshee and Bmaster are also very viable LL boats. My 7LL Bmaster will melt mechs quickly but runs hot. The Banshee can handle up to 6LL with decent heat management

[Mister Blastman]

Clan 'mechs are NOT OP. I chew them up every time I play as an IS 'mech.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 19 July 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

OK, so you don't understand the definition of p2w in the game industry, and reject the correct definition when it is explained to you.

Further discussion seems pointless then.

no, it's just that some of us don't agree that clans are op in the first place. Therefore they can't be P2W

By your definition hero mechs and premium time are P2W

[Hobgoblin I]

Sandpit, on 19 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

no, it's just that some of us don't agree that clans are op in the first place. Therefore they can't be P2W

By your definition hero mechs and premium time are P2W

read again what the quote you are quoting quoted. you are wrong and you can quote me on that.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 19 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

no, it's just that some of us don't agree that clans are op in the first place. Therefore they can't be P2W

By your definition hero mechs and premium time are P2W

First, you need to abandon the bottom that the clans are being talked about holistically. Second, you need to realize that being p2w does not necessarily imply being overpowered.

If a mech is the best in its class, this does not necessarily mean overpowered. However, if that mech is behind a pay wall, then it is still p2w.

Purchasing a competitive advantage is the definition of pay to win. It does not require that the purchase guarantee a win in all cases. It merely involves paying for an advantage.

The term pay to win is derived from the fact that if you were to equalize all other factors, such as player skill, etc. Then the person purchasing the advantage would be purchasing a statistically higher chance of winning. Thus, they would be paying to win.

Some hero mechs are pay to win, in that they are advantageous over the variants which are available for in game currency.

Premium time, however, is not at all pay to win, in that it has no advantageous impact in regards to the competitive outcome of a match.

Mister Blastman, on 19 July 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Clan 'mechs are NOT OP. I chew them up every time I play as an IS 'mech.

This is merely because most of the people piloting them are bad.

[Mcgral18]

Hobgoblin I, on 19 July 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

I run a 5 LL stalker laserboat (to me having 5 is better as you can chain fire two quick shots, break haf a second and repeat with no real downtime). I don't know if that is considered the norm or not.
But in comparison I have an ams, one ton of ammo, 5 LL, 22 2x heat sinks and a standard 280 with 512 armor. Cooling is 43% and max sustained DPS is 4.55. Optimized or not it does very well.

A clone build on smurfy's I made in the warhawk was 5 CERLL's, AMS and 1 ton of ammo, the clan XL 340, 26 clan 2x heat sinks, 518 armor and the clan mrk 5 targeting computer. It has a cooling of 47% and a max DPS of 5.57.

if any of that helps.

22 DHS gives you a capacity of 80.16 with doubled basics.

It cools at 4.232 H/s.

5 LLs generate 35 heat, so firing twice isn't an issue. It would take around 10 seconds to cycle twice, so it would dissipate 42 heat. So, 3 firings without issues, if I'm not mistaken on the safe ghost heat preventing firings.

5 ERLLs would generate 42.5 heat, so you could fire twice as well, although you would have to wait a few seconds before that third volley....I think. It would be an additional 22.5 heat for those 3 salvos compared to regular LLs.

[Keith66AH]

I have currently 48 mechs, 24 of them clan. I do not feel they are OP at all. The weapons are fairly balanced. The pros and cons have already been clearly stated.

I kill and die the same be I IS or Clan. Had my butt handed to me by a jenner in my Timberwolf the other day that followed me back into our lines right next to two Direwolves. And yes he lived.. he as the last one killed.

The critical thing people haven't realized yet is the restrictions on weapon placement on clan mechs. The omnipods can change in the mech but rarely can you mount every weapon along with ample ammo for a long fight. AMS is rare on clan mechs since in most cases the AMS pod is the only weapon you can mount for that location. And those pods have fixed equipment in them so it limits how much room you actually have. Lastly most clan weapons are mounted in the arms....
Shoot the arms off a warhawk and its done.

So when you see that Direwolf mounting 4 guass....guess where the ammo is and its not in the legs.

IS mechs have far more freedom of what to mount and where to put it and the ability to alter other factors of the mech.

Edited by Keith Youngblood, 19 July 2014 - 09:50 PM.