556 replies to this topic

[Asmudius Heng]

Keith Youngblood, on 19 July 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

IS mechs have far more freedom of what to mount and where to put it and the ability to alter other factors of the mech.

And this is the problem with discussing Clan balance.

The clans end up with some mechs less than optimal due to restrictions but not due to other reasons - but then you get SOME clan mechs where the restrictions are not quite so bad and they can end up mouting enough of the better weapons to be extremely powerful.

If you count balance as some mechs in the arsenal are terrible and others are OP therefore they balance out then this is a TERRIBLE way to have balance instead of making as many chassis and weapons viable as possible.

Disclaimer as per usual - i do not think clans are OMGWTFBBQ OP NERF NERF NERF!

I think they end up marginally better overall and it seems this is held up by a some people looking into masses of data rather than individual anecdotal evidence.

Everyone cherry picks fgrom both IS and clans to prove a point either way rather than look at the broad spectrum

[Mcgral18]

Asmudius Heng, on 19 July 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

And this is the problem with discussing Clan balance.

The clans end up with some mechs less than optimal due to restrictions but not due to other reasons - but then you get SOME clan mechs where the restrictions are not quite so bad and they can end up mouting enough of the better weapons to be extremely powerful.

Night Gyr: 4 hardwired JJs, half ton shy of max armour, 38 tons of pod space. It has a 300, so it moves at 71 and only has 2 hardwired DHS.

Of course, this is 3052 tech, but it goes to show there are more fearsome Clan mechs out there than the Timby. Heck, it comes STOCK as a Dual gauss jumpsniper, one in each arm.

[ArmandTulsen]

Spike Brave, on 18 June 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Most of the clan mechs are slower. They don't get more ammo per ton. The laser burn is longer too. The weapons are lighter but way hotter.

And they're STILL better than their IS counterparts! lol..

[IraqiWalker]

Hobgoblin I, on 19 July 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

I would like to believe you are actually reading and comprehending the posts you quote, but that doesn't seem the case.

When discussing the meritts of a large laser laserboat, stalker vs. warhawk, talking about the lasers isn't cherry picking. It is the discussion. You quoted me, so you can see that I mentioned the engine size and 2x heatsinks, yet you say I forgot them. It would be easier to structure my arguement so one party didn't look completely stupid if you would stop being completely stupid.

The topic of this thread is "clan tech is OP or are you guys blind", not clan tech is pay to win. When they become available for C-bills is irrelevant. Your argument the the smaller slotted heat sinks is plain disingenuous. You are proving thet you are the one with no concept of balance. If the range advantage clantech has is the "wrong tactic" to argue when discussing the performance of a mech chasis, please tell all of the clan mechs out there to stop shooting me at ranges over 700m.

Your heat and ghost heat arguements are simply wrong. You discount weight, slot size and range and focus only on beam duration. You can't read numbers on a chart and see that 15 is the same as 15. You quote people and make arguements taht have nothing to do with what they said. You are simply a poor spokesman for a lost cause.

I wish you actually paid attention to my responses, you're replying to things all over the place while ignoring the context, or what I was actually typing.

The range argument was specifically aimed at the side-pop tactic, the heat and duration were specifically brought to highlight how you keep ignoring them. The argument I made about the validity of AWS Vs STK, was to highlight that clan tech or not, the main reason people are complaining is lack of access.

It's really nice when you can just jumble up someone's response and twist their meanings.

If you really think your arguments are solid, I am willing to go down the list with you, one by one, and show you exactly why and how you are wrong.

Oh, and don't worry, I won't be completely condescending, dismissive, and insulting in my replies. I'll make sure they are completely professional.

Roland, on 19 July 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

OK, so you don't understand the definition of p2w in the game industry, and reject the correct definition when it is explained to you.

Further discussion seems pointless then.

I'm curious, why exactly is your definition the "correct" one?

From my experience with the online gaming industry spanning about 15 years now, that's the definition I've encountered, and dealt with.

Mcgral18, on 19 July 2014 - 11:40 PM, said:

Night Gyr: 4 hardwired JJs, half ton shy of max armour, 38 tons of pod space. It has a 300, so it moves at 71 and only has 2 hardwired DHS.

Of course, this is 3052 tech, but it goes to show there are more fearsome Clan mechs out there than the Timby. Heck, it comes STOCK as a Dual gauss jumpsniper, one in each arm.

Speaking of fun dual gauss mechs. The Blood Asp is a fun mech that will hopefully enter within the coming years.

ArmandTulsen, on 19 July 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

And they're STILL better than their IS counterparts! lol..

Unless you are referencing the Timberwolf by "they", you are very much wrong sir. Even the SCR falls to the mighty Shawk.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 20 July 2014 - 03:31 AM.

[ArmandTulsen]

IraqiWalker, on 20 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

Unless you are referencing the Timberwolf by "they", you are very much wrong sir. Even the SCR falls to the mighty Shawk.

If you lose to a Shadowhawk in a Stormcrow, then you're terribly lacking in skill. You shouldn't.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 20 July 2014 - 07:47 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

ArmandTulsen, on 20 July 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

If you lose to a Shadowhawk in a Stormcrow, then you're terribly lacking in skill. You shouldn't.

Not necessarily. You see, the Shawk is a lot more mobile with it's JJs, plus it's ability to run meta poptart set ups, meaning it can kill the SCR from long range easily, and in a close range brawl, the two mechs are pretty close in performance with the Shawk having better hitboxes in the end. It's close, but the Shawk has the advantage. SRM and SSRM SCRs are a thing of beauty though. One of my friends was complaining about not having much fun in it until I talked him into running those two set ups. He loves the SCR now.,

[ice trey]

INKBALL, on 18 June 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

-F*ck table top and change all the balance system.

You lost me, right there.

[Lightfoot]

All I see is that Clan mechs are faster with worse ACs and better medium lasers. If you could change the engines out, then Clan would be OP. You should be thankful that Clan tech is so muted in MWO, normally it is so easy to boat-out Clan mechs.

Overall, I think the lore is supported nicely, but the mechs are not easy to win with. My stats didn't change when switching from an Orion mostly to a Timber Wolf. They are actually worse. Truth.

[KuroNyra]

Thunderfrog, on 19 July 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

One of the dumbest things I've read from a clan defender yet.

I've sunk more than the price of your clan package into this game, but drew the line at clan mech prices when PGI has DONE NOTHING WITH THE MONEY THEY HAVE FLOCKED FROM IT PLAYERS OTHER THAN CREATE NEW MONEY FINDING INITIATIVES.

Have they paid more designers for maps? Community Warfare? Fixed Map Glitches?

No. They took every dollar and used it to make clan mechs so they could sell THEM for big dollars. Until there's a full game, PGI gets no more money.

To assume a non-clanner is a broke teen with no money and nothing but time reveals you to be a petty and shortsighted individual who couldn't reasonably think his way out of a port-a-potty.

Well since they had a lot of cash made with the clans.
They have lot's of found now to work completly on the CW.
And the sneak peeks by Nicolas have prooved so far that there were indid working on it.

The Clans probably gived them enought money for a lot of time. Since they said themselve that half the package bought were Masaraki.
And that's not counting the Alacarte mech and Golden one's.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 19 July 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

First, you need to abandon the bottom that the clans are being talked about holistically. Second, you need to realize that being p2w does not necessarily imply being overpowered.

If a mech is the best in its class, this does not necessarily mean overpowered. However, if that mech is behind a pay wall, then it is still p2w.

Purchasing a competitive advantage is the definition of pay to win. It does not require that the purchase guarantee a win in all cases. It merely involves paying for an advantage.

The term pay to win is derived from the fact that if you were to equalize all other factors, such as player skill, etc. Then the person purchasing the advantage would be purchasing a statistically higher chance of winning. Thus, they would be paying to win.

Some hero mechs are pay to win, in that they are advantageous over the variants which are available for in game currency.

Premium time, however, is not at all pay to win, in that it has no advantageous impact in regards to the competitive outcome of a match.


This is merely because most of the people piloting them are bad.

Again, that would imply that premium time is P2W. You gain an advantage over free players in earning cbills faster to buy more mechs with.

[IraqiWalker]

Sandpit, on 21 July 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Again, that would imply that premium time is P2W. You gain an advantage over free players in earning cbills faster to buy more mechs with.

I think his point is in applying P2W to the match, where the amount of C-Bills doesn't effect the mech. You can't throw 3 Million C-Bills onto the ground mid-match to distract players, or get some effect.

Once you drop it's your mech against another's and C-Bills don't matter. However, with R&R it becomes a clear advantage.

[Sandpit]

IraqiWalker, on 21 July 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I think his point is in applying P2W to the match, where the amount of C-Bills doesn't effect the mech. You can't throw 3 Million C-Bills onto the ground mid-match to distract players, or get some effect.

Once you drop it's your mech against another's and C-Bills don't matter. However, with R&R it becomes a clear advantage.

no, but you can throw cbills at mechs to buy them faster and you can earn xp faster to get them mastered faster which DOES give you a battlefield advantage

[IraqiWalker]

Sandpit, on 21 July 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

no, but you can throw cbills at mechs to buy them faster and you can earn xp faster to get them mastered faster which DOES give you a battlefield advantage

Yes, I agree. However, if the opponent has their mech mastered, and fully customized, and you do too, there's no in-match advantage. At least that's what I believe his point to be (By the way Roland, I am using "his" in a general sense, I don't know your gender)

[Sandpit]

IraqiWalker, on 21 July 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Yes, I agree. However, if the opponent has their mech mastered,

IF your opponent has clan mechs then there's no in-match advantage
IF your team has the same number of clan mechs then there's no in-match advantage
(no, I don't feel clans are "op" just illustrating the point)

I'm just pointing out that the philosophy being discussed would define premium time as P2W.

[Roland]

IraqiWalker, on 20 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

I'm curious, why exactly is your definition the "correct" one?

From my experience with the online gaming industry spanning about 15 years now, that's the definition I've encountered, and dealt with.

Because my definition is the one actually used by everyone involved in the industry. I mean, I can link you to various sources defining pay to win as purchasing advantage, but I don't think you would bother changing your mind.

Honestly, your definition of pay to win meaning literally paying for a guaranteed win is nonsensical on its face. You should be able to reason it out and figure out why your definition couldn't possibly be the case. Paying for a guaranteed win would actually eliminate the entirety of the game.

Regardless, I don't care if you continue to be wrong about this. Educate yourself, or don't. It's up to you.

Edited by Roland, 21 July 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Because my definition is the one actually used by everyone involved in the industry. I mean, I can link you to various sources defining pay to win as purchasing advantage, but I don't think you would bother changing your mind.

Honestly, your definition of pay to win meaning literally paying for a guaranteed win is nonsensical on its face. You should be able to reason it out and figure out why your definition couldn't possibly be the case. Paying for a guaranteed win would actually eliminate the entirety of the game.

Regardless, I don't care if you continue to be wrong about this. Educate yourself, or don't. It's up to you.

It's subjective dude

Just like people arguing over MWO as an MMO.

You ahve to first have the opinion that anything is OP or that you at the very least get a clear advantage over free players. Some of us just don't see it that way

[Roland]

You can try to argue that none of the clan mechs constitute an advantage, and while kind of silly, that's fine.

But Iraqi's definition of pay to win is simply wrong. It doesn't mean paying, literally, for a guaranteed win. It means paying for an advantage.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

You can try to argue that none of the clan mechs constitute an advantage, and while kind of silly, that's fine.

But Iraqi's definition of pay to win is simply wrong. It doesn't mean paying, literally, for a guaranteed win. It means paying for an advantage.

like I said, that philosophy would relegate premium time as P2W and by that logic every single F2P game I've ever seen is P2W

[Roland]

No, premium time does not give you a competitive advantage.
It has absolutely no impact on the result of a match, which is why premium time clearly is not pay to win. This is not subjective.

Edited by Roland, 21 July 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

No, premium time does not give you a competitive advantage.
It has absolutely no impact on the result of a match, which is why premium time clearly is not pay to win. This is not subjective.

yes it does, I can buy modules faster than give me an advantage. Free players are still grinding out money to buy a mech, I'm using that extra % to buy modules, master mechs faster, etc. It's a clear advantage that does translate to battlefield results

I can also buy modules with MC instead of having to wait and earn enough cbills. New players just starting out don't have the advantage of a stockpile of cbills so it's a rather large advantage