215 replies to this topic

[cSand]

PREACH IT BROTHER


MAN CRUSH ON BISHOP CONFIRMED

[Bishop Steiner]

Torgun, on 21 June 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

I don't see where you get the 12t difference from? If I compare the Tbr-prime with the 3D both at full armor and the 3D running an XL340 which still makes it run slower than the Tbr-prime, I see a 5t difference. Considering a lot of clan weapons weight less than IS counterparts, that weight difference would easily become equal. And then I haven't considered Tbr have more armor and of course the "single side torso destroyed = death" weakness of 3D which the Tbr doesn't have.

You are right. I was actually thinking my Orion (which make more sense as a 75 tonner) and wrote Cataphract. The Orion sits at 41 tons of weapon space, whereas the CTF-3D has about 7 tons more weapon space than the TWolf. My bad.

And of course, neither of these mechs have a bullet trap CT like the Timberwolf

[Damocles69]

2 gauss 2erppc dire wolf disagrees

as dose 12 er small 4 mg nova

these are really the only 2 out of whack builds however. nerfing ER meds and smalls (they are currently the 2 best lasers in the game by a wide margin) will fix the nova. dont know what to do about the dire wolf. however, any mech should not be allowed to 1 or 2 shot assault mechs lol

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

You are right. I was actually thinking my Orion (which make more sense as a 75 tonner) and wrote Cataphract. The Orion sits at 41 tons of weapon space, whereas the CTF-3D has about 7 tons more weapon space than the TWolf. My bad.

And of course, neither of these mechs have a bullet trap CT like the Timberwolf

Well if I do the same thing with the Orion I did with the 3D, the Orion will actually end up with 3 tons less of weaponry. I mean if we're going to compare the free weight for the mechs, we should have engines in them that make them move at the same speed. And with 3 tons less of weapons/gear for the Orion it still moves a bit slower than the Tbr (360 vs 375 engine)

Edited by Torgun, 21 June 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[BourbonFaucet]

Damocles69, on 21 June 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

2 gauss 2erppc dire wolf disagrees

as dose 12 er small 4 mg nova

these are really the only 2 out of whack builds however. nerfing ER meds and smalls (they are currently the 2 best lasers in the game by a wide margin) will fix the nova. dont know what to do about the dire wolf. however, any mech should not be allowed to 1 or 2 shot assault mechs lol

The PPC/Gauss Direwolf is part of the pinpoint alpha metaturd along with poptarting, it just lacks the jumpjets. So of course it'd seem "OP" because it's a part of the annoying twitch-shooter "strategy" we have plaguing this game. It's not OP, it's due to the game heavily favoring high damage pinpoint alphas.

As for the nova, if it's packing all smalls or mediums, there's gotta be some weakness there. If anything, it's 50 tons. Squish it with something big at long range, or outbrawl it.

[InspectorG]

You mean dont stand in the open? How will they see my awesome paintjob?

[Bishop Steiner]

Torgun, on 21 June 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Well if I do the same thing with the Orion I did with the 3D, the Orion will actually end up with 3 tons less of weaponry. I mean if we're going to compare the free weight for the mechs, we should have engines in them that make them move at the same speed. And with 3 tons less of weapons/gear for the Orion it still moves a bit slower than the Tbr (360 vs 375 engine)

<but you see, we DON'T. That is the advantage of IS MEchs. They don't have locked cores. No one runs an Orion with a 375. To artificially claim that you have to is a fallacy. You see, I can choose to run a larger engine....or a stock 300. A TWolf HAS to have the 375, no matter what.

[Jeb]

Duran Vancor, on 21 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Of course, here you go. Niko from PGI is there too.

Just watched the entire thing and they mostly feel the clans mechs are fine...
-They feel the light and assault clan mechs are too slow and wouldn't be used mostly in competitive play,,,
-They feel Clan vs IS, IS get the advantage due to speed and mobility.
-They feel the clan mechs in pug matches are mostly fine...
-They have some issues with very specific clan mech builds... 1 med and 1 assault mostly... but over all think they did a pretty good job at balancing the clans... they say more then once, it was done better then any other BT games including TT...
- They feel the TW (using JJs) beats out a 3D. So my guess is for jump sniping... which I don't know about your ELO, but in mine, I only ever see a few jump snipers, and they don't' normally decide the games...

That is what I got out of the video anyways...

Most of what they talk about though with certain mechs being overpowered IMO is for very high ELO and competitive play with mixed drops where we already had certain overpowered IS mechs...

[Jeb]

Techorse, on 21 June 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

The PPC/Gauss Direwolf is part of the pinpoint alpha metaturd along with poptarting, it just lacks the jumpjets. So of course it'd seem "OP" because it's a part of the annoying twitch-shooter "strategy" we have plaguing this game. It's not OP, it's due to the game heavily favoring high damage pinpoint alphas.

As for the nova, if it's packing all smalls or mediums, there's gotta be some weakness there. If anything, it's 50 tons. Squish it with something big at long range, or outbrawl it.

I think the problem though is that one Direwolf build has such a high alpha with very long range... It's too high as even a bad player can get lucky and land a shot or two... and it has the armor to live long enough to pump out a few of those shots... put that in the hands of someone with good aim and it's deadly... People were already complaining about Duel Gauss IS builds, add in the PPCs and you have double the trouble lol


The Nova, from what I have seen, it's mostly the SL build that is a problem due to the clans range on SLs, and their high dmg vs heat... I am sure the SLs will be adjusted a bit to bring that build more inline.

[Alistair Winter]

For the sake of balance to my previous argument about Clan mechs possibly being OP, I will supply some evidence which counters my previous claim.

http://mwomercs.com/...braggin-rights/

My glorious inner sphere Griffin has a 1.75 W/L ratio and a 4.00 KDR, almost exclusively from pugging against clanners.

And I have to say, I used to be terrified of light mechs when I played my Griffin with SRMs that had a 50% chance of disappearing. Now they all hit their mark, and the clan light mechs are just so slow, plump and juicy

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

<but you see, we DON'T. That is the advantage of IS MEchs. They don't have locked cores. No one runs an Orion with a 375. To artificially claim that you have to is a fallacy. You see, I can choose to run a larger engine....or a stock 300. A TWolf HAS to have the 375, no matter what.

This is critical.

You want to see overpowered? Let me add Endosteel and remove 3 jets from a Summoner. Let me pull my twolf back to a 325 engine. Then I'll show you overpowered

[MischiefSC]

This forum hates phones. i have awesome test idea, will post later.

Edited by MischiefSC, 21 June 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[N0MAD]

Wouldnt it be nice if they held an IS vs Clan Tourny as part of the invasion.
Then we would really see how Clan vs IS mechs hold up.

[Silverlance]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Yes indeed.

I had to sit there and really examine the issue. Why do some players facing the Clans not have any particular issue with them, yet others, just absolutely get their panties puckered and cry "OP! OP!"?

Then I had an epiphany. The Majority of Clan Weapons are Damage Over Time. Given a chance to unleash their full power, they do tend to have a Higher DPS, and also a potentially higher Alpha Potential.

Mind you, good players seldom worry about DPS, but this led me to the answer.


IF........... you insist on standing out in the open, especially in big, slow mechs, and doubly especially without the benefit of ECM or massed AMS....... Clan Tech is OP.

IF........... you regularly get into staring matches with your opponent....... Clan Tech is OP.

IF........... you cannot reliably put the majority of your return fire into one section of your opponent..... especially when it's staring back at you....... Clan Tech is OP.

If you do all these things, have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, and regularly stare into the sun, you will indeed find Clan Tech OP.

The good news, is there is a cure. No, not to Nerf Clan Tech. Or to Buff Inner Sphere Mechs. No silly rabbit, the cure? It's to learn NOT to stand out in the open, not to get into staring matches with your opponent and to aim effectively, without panicking at return fire.

So indeed noble Forum Warriors, the power to defeat the Clans is indeed right in your very hands!!!!


Also, if the whole world is against, you and everything is OP, this may enlighten you as to why:
http://mwomercs.com/...80#entry3466680

you´re welcome!

Also, have noticed a trend that exacerbates the "Clan superiority" mythos. People are so scared of Clan Tech (just like they are of LRMs) that they turtle and huddle and mewl, even WORSE than they did against IS Mechs.

Thus, they huddle up like fish in a barrel, and take themselves out of the fight. And thus, they lose, and thus, become a self fulfilling prophecy of "Clan Superiority".

*Does this mean Clan Tech is perfect, or doesn't need tweaking? Of course not. But then, look at just how out of whack a lot of IS tech is, even when compared to other IS tech. It's a process, but the basic balance is very very close.

I bow before you, almighty Bishop. Never thought I'd say that to a Steiner though. Spot on and bravo.

N0MAD, on 21 June 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

Wouldnt it be nice if they held an IS vs Clan Tourny as part of the invasion.
Then we would really see how Clan vs IS mechs hold up.

This x Over 9000. 10 million space bucks to you sir.

[Fleeb the Mad]

I have to posit something to you for this discussion.

I think much of the disconnect between people on matters of balance is wrapped around the fact that people in different ELO brackets essentially play a different game. Seems strange, but I've experienced it directly.

I have played since the game's humble beginnings and not so much since the reset. I remember when the meta was to run 8Q Awesomes with 7 medium lasers and as many SHS as would fit, succeeded by speedbacks and dual Gauss K2 catapults. In those days I saw meta mechs constantly, In addition to noting there actually was a time when the Awesome had a twink build, these builds were everywhere. Every level of the game saw them.

But since this stat reset...I find that I live in a different world than those who furiously complain about the poptart meta. I don't see them particularly often and I've come to the conclusion this is because I now live in a casual ELO bracket. Those of you who hone the most effective tactic and practice in groups and have very nice statistical profiles actually exist in a bubble, because the correct opposition for you is more players who do the same.

The low and mid ELO brackets are actually delightful chaos. Anything goes and it's the most balanced and fun play this game has ever had in my experience. I don't want that to change.

Keep that in mind when you complain about balance, or shoot down people who complain about balance. If you learn to master certain tactics and counter-tactics, you move out of the ELO bracket where they're a problem. That means they're actually still a problem for everyone in that bracket. I think many current balance changes are compromises that are made for the sake of the biggest part of the player base.

[Yukichi Fukuzawa]

Amazing post Bishop! Lets hope people read it. Sadly most people are not self critical or honest to themselves.

[Cerlin]

If you suck, clans are OP. But I am pretty sure this is the case for all tech in the game.

Great post by the way. As someone who loves inner sphere mechs, I will take buffs but honestly I dont think clans need nerfs. Been dropping a lot of equal weight and pilot drops in my units and the IS teams generally win. Remember all, we have UPGRADED IS mechs, not stock.

[IceCase88]

I swear I will win the staring contest over my enemy all day everyday!

Buffing/fixing/nerfing always boils down to someone being killed and being angry about it. They really want to nerf the red team and buff the blue team. Solve that issue and we will achieve weapons balance and meta peace.

Edited by IceCase88, 21 June 2014 - 11:31 PM.

[Pjwned]

So far my only real complaint is the clan lasers because of their high damage, high range, and relatively low extra heat while maintaining low tonnage & crit space.

I realize that clan lasers have an extra long burn time, but that's not much of a problem when shooting at something several hundred meters away (for respectable damage too) because it's easy to stay on target in that case. The medium lasers in particular are ridiculous, they have as much range as IS large lasers for only 2 less damage and a slightly longer burn time while having less heat, a fraction of the tonnage, and half the crit slots.

If ER clan lasers are going to have so much range then they should either have higher heat or do less damage, or a bit of both, or just lower the range for extremely low cost hitscan weapons.

[Wintersdark]

Pjwned, on 21 June 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

So far my only real complaint is the clan lasers because of their high damage, high range, and relatively low extra heat while maintaining low tonnage & crit space.

I realize that clan lasers have an extra long burn time, but that's not much of a problem when shooting at something several hundred meters away (for respectable damage too) because it's easy to stay on target in that case. The medium lasers in particular are ridiculous, they have as much range as IS large lasers for only 2 less damage and a slightly longer burn time while having less heat, a fraction of the tonnage, and half the crit slots.

If ER clan lasers are going to have so much range then they should either have higher heat or do less damage, or a bit of both, or just lower the range for extremely low cost hitscan weapons.

It's a pretty good trade for the IS. Clan lasers are better, but IS have substantially better LRM's and Autocannons, as well as having both regular and ER PPC choices.

You can't look at individual systems to balance them, you need to see the ecosystem as a whole.