121 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Oni Ralas, on 22 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

LRM mech cannot hug the wall, missiles will bounce - so he/she must be far enough away and in a position so the bees can leave the hive. poptarts have no such issues. And note the big word in your secondary point - IF. IF his team has LoS, and IF, they hold locks for long enough, you MIGHT get a volley or two to land. The reality of the situation is that, in todays world, no one is exposing themselves long enough to lock up a target for indirect fire support. So no, your point is basically moot.

Is it really that big of an "if"? I mean, what are the odds that none of the 11 other mechs on your team will ever see any of the other 12 mechs on the enemy team?
You are right that you probably wont do as well with indirect fire if you just blindly launch LRMs every time you see a red triangle within 1000m, but, even in PUGs, since you can stay far enough away from the mosh pit, you can look on the mini-map to get a good idea of which targets will be lit up for the longest amount of time.

[Oni Ralas]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

LOL!
Nice try in wanting to make this about snipers, it isn't, its about LRM boats.
(They are very easy to play and do well in)

Edit: Well, that came off way harsher than I was attempting.

TL;DR: If LRM boats are easy, then so is anything else about this game.

Edited by Oni Ralas, 22 June 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[Hotthedd]

wanderer, on 22 June 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Perhaps noting that my kills were on the 'Mechs that between them had killed just as many of my team themselves might make an impression. That is, they'd already reamed my entire team and were quite capable of killing me, had I been unskilled myself- and had mostly crippled the other members of my team- the Kintaro and Catapult were out of ammo well before that and the Adder was half-gone, and had obliterated the base defenses for good measure. They had the Cicada shielding them nearly the entire time- and by the time it was dead, I was out of LRM ammo.

Nice job?
Congratulations?
I realize it's sometimes a pain to look a few pages back, but if you would, you would see that I have made a distinction between Good pilots who use LRMs and those pilots who just boat LRMs and use that damage to justify their e-peen. The latter group being the ones who take great offense to anyone pointing out that anyone can get a buttload of damage and kills in an LRM boat.

[Oni Ralas]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Is it really that big of an "if"? I mean, what are the odds that none of the 11 other mechs on your team will ever see any of the other 12 mechs on the enemy team?
You are right that you probably wont do as well with indirect fire if you just blindly launch LRMs every time you see a red triangle within 1000m, but, even in PUGs, since you can stay far enough away from the mosh pit, you can look on the mini-map to get a good idea of which targets will be lit up for the longest amount of time.

Seeing != targeting != holding targets. Chances of someone on my team seeing a mech? High. Chances of them locking? Med/High. Chances of holding lock? EXTREMELY low in the current meta. As such, the chances of me being able to lock their lock and actually fire against it with some degree of usefulness - low. This of course scales with map and team quality. Against an array of direct fire weapons, using locks from team mates makes up a tiny fraction of my actual output with LRMs. In addition, "far away" is a relative term. If someone is engaging their missiles at >600m, they're doing it wrong. That range is more than enough playgrown for the AC crowd, PPC crowd and now the CERLAS crowd.

Funny though, ya mention being able to watch the map and select targets based on terrain knowledge and/or distance. Situational awareness? Special awareness? That sounds much harder than this point n' click Fisher Price style combat everyone keeps telling me exists

It's not as easy as it sounds to be effective with LRMs. If they were truly as easy as everyone makes them out to be, then teams would be running nothing but LRM and spotter combos all friggin day. That's why I love them so much - when someone gets nuked by the swarm, you've earned the kill over the pinpoint campers. If anything, I think LRMs should hit HARDER than they do now - so there might actually be use for them at higher tier levels. When ever I run with structured teams, I rarely get to bring out the bees

[Hotthedd]

Oni Ralas, on 22 June 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Sorry you've gotten ***** a few times by LRM boats to the point where you assume their EZ mode.

Funny how those who've played this the longest will continually smack down the chumps like yourself that make this argument every_god_damn_week.

Nope, not exactly.

I have more than likely been playing longer than you, although that does not mean anything when discussing the validity of opinions.

I actually formed that opinion by playing LRM boats. Perhaps I am just a natural at it, but compared to brawling, scouting, playing mediums, etc. I find it quite easy. I also will look over the shoulder of LRM boats when I die sometimes. The worst PUGs -by far- are the LRM boats.

[wanderer]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yes, this is true. Bishop Steiner has already made that point. The better the enemy, the harder it is (moreso for LRMs)

For the record, you can often find me playing on some very good 12 man teams.

And there you go. Do you find it easy to use LRMs on those teams, given your opponents? Heck, do they even LET you use LRMs?

Either of us can line up a shot on some mouthbreather who stops dead center in the middle of an open spot on Arctic and level them while watching World Cup soccer or something. Against a good opponent, trying for missile kills is nowhere near easy. And that's the standard I hold a weapon to. Is it easy to shoot a good opponent with and kill them? No? Then it's not easy to use. It's easy to kill bads with, and any mediocre weapon can be used to mow down bads.

[Wolfways]

Oni Ralas, on 22 June 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Direct fire LRM's is how I roll! No one expects the flying Timber Wolf of DOOM!!!

So what do you do when people start firing at you? Defend yourself and waste the missiles, or keep the lock and die?
Of course if you're out in the open and the enemy aren't shooting you that says more about the enemy. If i pop out of cover for a second in my C1 i get everyone that can see me suddenly turning their torso straight in my direction

[Hotthedd]

wanderer, on 22 June 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

And there you go. Do you find it easy to use LRMs on those teams, given your opponents? Heck, do they even LET you use LRMs?

Either of us can line up a shot on some mouthbreather who stops dead center in the middle of an open spot on Arctic and level them while watching World Cup soccer or something. Against a good opponent, trying for missile kills is nowhere near easy. And that's the standard I hold a weapon to. Is it easy to shoot a good opponent with and kill them? No? Then it's not easy to use. It's easy to kill bads with, and any mediocre weapon can be used to mow down bads.

The mistake I believe you make is in saying that the weapon is only easy against bad players, and supporting your point by saying only bad players get easily killed by that weapon.
It commits the logical fallacy of "Begging the question".

It is my opinion that a bad to medium player can do medium to good numbers due to the extreme ease of use of LRMs. i.e. they are a crutch for the lower skilled player.

[Wingbreaker]

RADAR DEP.

[Wolfways]

Dirkdaring, on 22 June 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

If you're under cover the entire match you aren't helping your team. It's impossible to remain under cover and fight for a whole game. You aren't gods gift to MWO, I have yet even watching pro teams play see someone who can always avoid LRM fire.

And that is a perfect example of someone who doesn't know the difference between using cover and hiding. I don't hide, ever.
Getting a line of fire does not mean leaving cover either.

I may not be gods gift to MWO but reading threads like this make me feel like i am. I'm probably mid ELO somewhere so i have to assume those complaining about LRM's are either low ELO or just want the weapons removed so they don't have to use tactics.

LRM's are pathetic and you have to really work hard to do well with them if your opponents know what they are doing.

[Oni Ralas]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Nope, not exactly.

I have more than likely been playing longer than you, although that does not mean anything when discussing the validity of opinions.

Seeing how I've got a full YEAR on creation date on you, I kinda doubt that's true.

Oni: Member Since 03 Nov 2011
Hotthedd: Member Since 04 Nov 2012

Damn near to the day baby! LOL

Edited by Oni Ralas, 22 June 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[Oni Ralas]

Wolfways, on 22 June 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

So what do you do when people start firing at you? Defend yourself and waste the missiles, or keep the lock and die?
Of course if you're out in the open and the enemy aren't shooting you that says more about the enemy. If i pop out of cover for a second in my C1 i get everyone that can see me suddenly turning their torso straight in my direction

I keep the lock while skirting to the sides and using the 4Mlas for center-mass shots. If they're still within range, I might blow the ammo. I will *definitely* direct fire into a crowd if I happen to run across some, even if some are inside the 180m band. Having warning klaxons go off, or just seeing the stream, will often make people turn towards cover or change direction. The upcoming changes to Clan LRM arming distance will change the game a bit - I can still use my bees even with someone tries to "get under my guns" at 150m. They won't be as effective of course, but just direct streaming 60 of those ******** right towards face of someone charging you is going to hurt at even 50% damage.

JJ's are your friend too. And TAG -- never leave home without it. Macro it so you can toggle on/off, or use the edited config for always on. IF you are going the always-on route, be sure to keep it pointed at the dirt while changing position...don't give away your location with the big laser pointer

[Wolfways]

Oni Ralas, on 22 June 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

I keep the lock while skirting to the sides and using the 4Mlas for center-mass shots. If they're still within range, I might blow the ammo. I will *definitely* direct fire into a crowd if I happen to run across some, even if some are inside the 180m band. Having warning klaxons go off, or just seeing the stream, will often make people turn towards cover or change direction. The upcoming changes to Clan LRM arming distance will change the game a bit - I can still use my bees even with someone tries to "get under my guns" at 150m. They won't be as effective of course, but just direct streaming 60 of those ******** right towards face of someone charging you is going to hurt at even 50% damage.

JJ's are your friend too. And TAG -- never leave home without it. Macro it so you can toggle on/off, or use the edited config for always on. IF you are going the always-on route, be sure to keep it pointed at the dirt while changing position...don't give away your location with the big laser pointer

I've been sitting here for a while trying to think of how to respond and came to the conclusion that i can't. It's like you're describing a different game. If i try to keep lock i'm dead and nobody runs from an LRM mech, they make it a priority to shoot it.

[Oni Ralas]

Wolfways, on 22 June 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

I've been sitting here for a while trying to think of how to respond and came to the conclusion that i can't. It's like you're describing a different game. If i try to keep lock i'm dead and nobody runs from an LRM mech, they make it a priority to shoot it.

How many LRMs are you carrying? If anyone knows that the LRM boat is capable of laying down hurt, then it becomes a priority target. Remember to run your modules -- decay, range and deprivation. And keep in mind the decay timer is reset if you see *any* part of the mech you are targeting -- so I will JJ up enough just to glance the top of them (hopefully) and it resets the timer. Allows you to keep the stream flowin'

[wanderer]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

It is my opinion that a bad to medium player can do medium to good numbers due to the extreme ease of use of LRMs. i.e. they are a crutch for the lower skilled player.

So in other words, LRMs are not an easy to use weapon.

Easy to use weapons are weapons that work, no matter what. LRMs do not. A laser? Easy to use. Even a PPC is easy to use- point at target in crosshair, pull trigger.

Other than Streaks, are there any other weapons that will spontaneously fire into a wall instead because an ECM 'Mech passed by just as you were ready to pull the trigger? Perhaps whiff completely if they crossed out of LOS for a moment and radar deprivation module kicks in to break the lock? Get randomly reduced in damage depending on how many AMS bubbles they cross on the way to target (and for Clanners, that can be zero with surprising ease)?

Have a roughly 30% accuracy rate on hits? This is an "easy to use" weapon? No. It's a weapon that gets bad, easy TARGETS at low levels of skill, and the more intelligent and skilled the opponent is, the harder the weapon gets to use- to the point where it's considered useless at the top and inefficient much below that- and even then, to be effective truly needs a SECOND partner that can spot/NARC for the LRM user. Strangely, the hit rate for my lasers doesn't seem to change much under the same low-odds circumstances for my LRMs.

I bounce around between the edge of the "top tier" players and the middle. If LRMs were "easy to use" against competent players, I'd be trading shots with the big 12-man groups every day. Instead, I get 12-mans that will tell me "No LRMs, they're useless on good teams- bring something with direct-fire AC/PPC/Gauss instead."

Weapons that only work easily for killing bad players are badly balanced weapons. And considering how hard I have to work to kill decent players with LRMs, I'd say the only people whining for LRM nerfs (not you) are....bad players. And bads should never, ever be where you look for balance. You look at what the good players are using, abusing, and stomping everyone else who doesn't in. Those are the easy-to-use weapons. They function regardless of conditions like ECM or modules. You don't have to take hostile environments (like -ceilings-) into account with easy-to-use weapons. Point, shoot, hit.

LRMs don't fit anywhere in that easy-to-use category.

[Wolfways]

Oni Ralas, on 22 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

How many LRMs are you carrying? If anyone knows that the LRM boat is capable of laying down hurt, then it becomes a priority target. Remember to run your modules -- decay, range and deprivation. And keep in mind the decay timer is reset if you see *any* part of the mech you are targeting -- so I will JJ up enough just to glance the top of them (hopefully) and it resets the timer. Allows you to keep the stream flowin'

30, it's basically a stock CPLT-C1. I use Target Decay, Sensor Range, and Seismic. I wouldn't use Deprivation as there's no point for me.
It's not that i have a problem shooting people (unless they have ECM or know how to use cover) that aren't targeting me. The problem is if i try to use direct-fire the enemy can see me too and will core me because i can't torso twist while firing, or if i do i lose lock so it was pointless firing, apart from the very first salvo if it hits them.
Even if i'm following my lance and staying behind them, the enemy will focus me first...which is good for the team as they will have more firepower than me anyway. On the other hand if i use a non-LRM mech i'd be doing much more damage (than direct-fire LRM's anyway).

[MadcatX]

wanderer, on 22 June 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

And there you go. Do you find it easy to use LRMs on those teams, given your opponents? Heck, do they even LET you use LRMs?

Either of us can line up a shot on some mouthbreather who stops dead center in the middle of an open spot on Arctic and level them while watching World Cup soccer or something. Against a good opponent, trying for missile kills is nowhere near easy. And that's the standard I hold a weapon to. Is it easy to shoot a good opponent with and kill them? No? Then it's not easy to use. It's easy to kill bads with, and any mediocre weapon can be used to mow down bads.

I'm quoting you wanderer because I agree with you 100%. I apologize to all for the following rant, but I've put up with this game and it's community's treatment and statements of LRM's since the beginning of CB and it's time I get this off my chest:

Ever since I first started CB, I loved my Founder's 'Cat. The default weapons config was just great for me, and to this day it remains mostly the same. I've always viewed and wished to play a fire support role: I'm not on the field to kill things, I'm on the field to help my team kill things. If I get kills, that's just a bonus. And I have continued to do so in my trusty Catapult and will continue to do so, even knowing that it's not meta. A look at my stats shows that my second-most played mech is the recent champion blackjack, with 3 matches played in it.

If the community considers 2 LRM 15's w/ Artemis LRM boating, well then I guess I'm a boater.
And I'm a pugger (mostly, I do have a clan but I'm usually online when they're not)

But LRM's have always been situational, thus I worked hard to mitigate that as much as I can. Learned early on that mobility is key. Sure I could load LRM 20's and just sit back... but that was too easy and very hit or miss. Couldn't trust teammates to keep locks, so even before ECM came along, LoS LRM's offered higher probability of hitting an enemy mech Learning optimal terrain locations to allow LoS, having to keep situational awareness of my comrades, quickly triaging enemy mechs based on damage as well as if they were brawling with a fellow teammate to select optimal target. Being ever-vigilant of that light mech who might take me for easy pray despite my armor and secondary weapons.

And then the changes came, some good, most bad. There were times that I completely agree that LRM's were OP, no denying that. ECM/Tag came along, that was a game changer. Now I had to learn yet another skillset: dealing and countering ECM all while keeping a big red beam that clearly gave away my position. I did become an excellent scout, usually the only one lighting up targets and getting to vantage points to call out enemy positions. Oh, and I lost a medium laser because in PGI's wisdom of role warfare, one side doesn't need a weapon slot to use but the other does... thus another concession made.

I played through all the continual LRM tweaking of trajectories and broken splash damage and damage per missile being abysmally low, And through it all, more times then I can count, in game chat, apparently despite all my experience and having to learn how to put what was for the longest time, and still is today, an inferior weapon and make it a viable contribution to the team. And oh how many times in chat was I told of how "easy" what I was doing was and how cheap I played, getting lumped in the same group of players who would just sit back and lob missiles.

But I took it all in stride, didn't have a choice.

Then there was some uplifting news: a speed increase in missiles. Finally, something good. Yea... should have known how much these forums would QQ over folks trying the new missile speeds out. We sure wouldn't want LRM's to be viable....

But now... yet again... another nerf, a module to cancel a module. The narc upgrade was great, but again situational whereas the target decay module always provided the same bonus.

And here I am, thinking I'd be jaded to it all by now, to all the less-skilled opponents crying fowl about LRM's but not minding getting cored by alpha pinpoint or the myriad other things that are much more worthy of discussion.

Ok, rant over. Sorry, that's been building up for a while.

[OneEyed Jack]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

The mistake I believe you make is in saying that the weapon is only easy against bad players, and supporting your point by saying only bad players get easily killed by that weapon.
It commits the logical fallacy of "Begging the question".

It is my opinion that a bad to medium player can do medium to good numbers due to the extreme ease of use of LRMs. i.e. they are a crutch for the lower skilled player.

Perhaps the issue here is the difference of opinion in what what constitutes "medium to good numbers". Or possibly a difference of opinion on which numbers are relevant.

[Petrothian Tong]

but what if you are playing a team game!

and LRMing to help you teammates get kills!

*and you get C-bills*



but seriously.
everybody should be in commandos with a single small laser if you want "skill"

Edited by Petrothian Tong, 22 June 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[Biaxialrain]

I've never bitched about LRMs before but since the Clans it's become too much.

Especially the Clan LRMs effect on the cockpit, it's definitely too much.

Not so much fun to sit across the map and use PPCs, Gauss, or ERxxx.