894 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Except that SRM DPS is spread damage ineffective beyond 180m. And they have to get that close in the first place.

Caustic is an open field with a central point and ridges on either side. The drop points are set far enough away from the points of engagement that it's possible for each side to maneuver through cover before the other side has position to focus jumpshots on them. There are few other maps with that kind of balance--which is a subject for another thread, probably.

The tonnage restrictions on the final were tighter than other setups.

No, this is the right thread for it. Getting balance from where we're at begins with the heat system and our ability to alpha strike with near impunity. It's fundamentally broken--that's why competitive players have been stuck with the same meta for a year and a half. It's prevented every other change from meaningfully altering gameplay.

Bringing up the amount of work done in 2 years as a reason not to make change is a sunk cost fallacy. And I doubt it would take that much work to simply switch the values on the heat system, disable ghost heat, and then see where we're at.

When your DPS is triple it doesn't particularly matter that some of it is spread.

Those ridges are what make it a good sniping map. You can ask any competitive player, "Is Caustic a good brawling map?" They'll all answer no. You can ask any high elo player that too and you'll get the same answer.

No, the tonnage restrictions were not tighter. 720 tons is one of the middling tonnages for Run Hot or Die, which is the primary competitive tournament. 720 tons is also just about the most popular. It's certainly the most balanced out of the lot.

If you want to discuss changes to the heat system I'm just saying it'd probably be more of a primary topic than trying to shoehorn it in this thread. I don't think the current heat system is so messed up that we need an entirely new one, nor do I think that the proposed system will be free of unique problems.

Shalune, on 23 June 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

This whole thread is a joke, but really you folks need to reexamine your logic. You're telling me an exceptional player performed very well in a mech? Stop the presses. That mech must be OP. Because we've obviously tested it against every possible team comp and skill level that could ever exist.

All of your group's posts in this thread are full of broad generalizations based on anecdotal evidence, if that. At best you've pointed to some personal stats of yours which are affected by plenty of factors beyond the quality of the mech build, and form such a small sample size that they may as well have been anecdotal.

The only people with statistically significant data on the current balance of the game are PGI. Even this data is mostly useless as it represents the initial reactions to new mechanics without allowing time for counters or alternatives to be tested.

In short: you are excellent pilots. No amount of skill can let you declare with absolute certainty where the meta is 5 days after new mechanics. Nothing you've presented actually demonstrates your points beyond a superficial level.

We've discussed this subject with the other top team in the game, Steel Jaguar. These kinds of findings aren't made in a vacuum.

I'm also curious who you think are the ones who make those 'meta' builds in the first place...

Azrael1911, on 23 June 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

That's all well and fine, but the game isn't, and shouldn't be, balanced around competitive players. People who pugs are such a tiny portion of the player base that balancing around them at the expense of your "plays for fun/plays occasionally" user is a disservice to the game.

12-man players can abuse the game however they want, but it needs to be in the context of a game that's balanced for public queue games.

tl;dr- 100% fine with weapons being broken in comp if it means it's not broken in queue.

It is broken in queue. The Mad Cat with 2xERPPC/1xGauss is a more versatile and serviceable mech than just about anything. It's already starting to be used at the same rate that jumpsniper Cataphracts/Dragon Slayers are used at.

Games aren't really balanced around comp play. It's more accurate to say that games should be balanced around 'good' play. Why would someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of the game, build their mechs properly, or have the game knowledge to position well have a say in balance?

Balancing off of people like that is why the AC2 keeps on getting nerfed. In low Elos people don't know how to torso-twist. They then get hammered by the AC2s great DPS, and die for it. In higher Elos, people eventually learn that if you get an AC2 on you, to move and use one of your arms to take the majority of the fire.

Edited by Adiuvo, 23 June 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Jun Watarase, on 23 June 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Burst fire : Burst fire is only a disadvantage in one situation : when the target can spread/nullify the damage through use of cover (commonly poptarting). In all other aspects, it is not a disadvantage at all. The advantages are : Lower weight, less critical slots (can UAC20s in arms with hand actuators!) and access to UACs that the IS do not have. A situational disadvantage vs an always present, very large advantage. In the case of gauss rifles, there's no disadvantage at all.

False, there is never a hand or lower arm actuator if you mount an AC, Gauss or a PPC. Automatic removal.

And you cannot seriously say spread damage is a minimal disadvantage. It's one of the biggest balancing methods for the Clans. Have you noticed with all the Clan mechs about how TTK has actually increased? Despite more damage being flung around, it still takes more time to kill stuff (assuming your opponent is halfway competent). This is because Spread damage is easily mitigated.

Sure, more DPS, but that can't compare to PP FLD until you get in their face.

Edited by Mcgral18, 23 June 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Are the Top Tier going to take part in CW? Or will they continue to worry about simple win lost stats?

That's kind of why we've formed teams

[wanderer]

Jun Watarase, on 23 June 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

It was bad enough where you could only compete with meta builds by using meta builds (why do you think poptarts dominated the tournament?), but now you literally cannot compete with clan mechs without using pinpoint FLD meta builds...and even then the clan mechs can do pinpoint FLD just as well (direwolf can do 2x er ppc + 2x gauss).

I'm truly, truly uncompetitive in my IS 'Mechs.



Look at how uncompetitive I am.



My experience goes rather strongly against your theorycrafting, Jun.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 23 June 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

False, there is never a hand or lower arm actuator if you mount an AC, Gauss or a PPC. Automatic removal.

And you cannot seriously say spread damage is a minimal disadvantage. It's one of the biggest balancing methods for the Clans. Have you noticed with all the Clan mechs about how TTK has actually increased? Dispite more damage being flung around, it still takes more time to kill stuff (assuming your opponent is halfway competent). This is because Spread damage is easily mitigated.

Sure, more DPS, but that can't compare to PP FLD until you get in their face.

This only applies for Clan Omnis, in many cases IS Mechs with those weapons still have low/hand actuators. Panther as an example.

[Shalune]

Ghogiel, on 23 June 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Meta filters down from the top level players. Top level players are telling you how the meta is changing. You also listed evidence as to why it's changing. I guess fair enough that you remain skeptical.

Except that the OP is full of horrific flaws, unsubstantiated claims, and jumping to his own conclusions without following a logical trail.

One example of many:
'Clan dps is better therefor effectiveness is universally up and TTK is universally down, and many lights and mediums are now ineffective'

Damage numbers on their own are almost meaningless. This is why LRMs can get such high numbers but are not used in truly competitive play. What's important is how much damage you deal to components that directly contribute to a kill (ex: CT). Clan weapons spread damage more which lowers their effective killing power.

As someone else pointed out, skill at piloting does not equate to skill at deciphering game balance. Obviously it comes with the advantage of seeing and experiencing high level play first hand, but this can only benefit you so much. Modern day historians know much more about what trends would shape the medieval world than anyone that lived during that time.

Making these broad and conclusive claims so early on holds no weight. This does not mean they could not be correct, only that they're completely unfounded.

[Ghogiel]

GreyGriffin, on 23 June 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

The fixes proposed on the OP don't fix change the meta. They calcify it. What's needed is a fundamental mechanics change that directly affects pinpoint damage to allow the game's other mechanics to emerge.

He suggests ghost heat on 2 CERPPCs and a nerf to the TBR basically across the board. calcifing the meta, what on earth do you mean?

Quote

Furthermore, the OP's suggestions hamstring builds that aren't optimal without understanding that the game is comprised of more than optimal builds. Some people, believe it or not, don't play the meta, and carpet bombing their 'mechs, their weapons, and their play styles to preserve the delicate balance at the top 1% of play is the wrong solution.

Some people also use joysticks too. Bads gon b bad :shrug:

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

That's kind of why we've formed teams

My point is you argue like a basketball team instead of warriors. I am not here to play v the Lakers I am here to push back an invading army.

[Turboferret]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

It is broken in queue. The Mad Cat with 2xERPPC/1xGauss is a more versatile and serviceable mech than just about anything. It's already starting to be used at the same rate that jumpsniper Cataphracts/Dragon Slayers.

Games aren't really balanced around comp play. It's more accurate to say that games should be balanced around 'good' play. Why would someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of the game, build their mechs properly, or have the game knowledge to position well have a say in balance?

Balancing off of stuff like that is why the AC2 keeps on getting nerfed. In low Elos people don't know how to torso-twist. They then get hammered by the AC2s great DPS, and die for it. In higher Elos, people eventually learn that if you get an AC2 on you, to move and use one of your arms to take the majority of the fire.

No, I agree with that sentiment. The point I was trying to make was that "fun for people who queue" should be a much higher balance priority than "balance for players for PUG." I wasn't disagreeing about PPCs particularly (My problem was really with Heim's tone).

I do think the 2PPC/Gauss TW build is a problem, but I'm reserving my opinion until the next patch with the JJ nerfs come in.
Keep in mind the 'tart TW isn't as horribly overpowered in queue as it is in 12-man, since the required teamwork (and sometimse the aim) just isn't there. But it's still something that should be addressed, in part because being jump-sniped at isn't really "fun."

Edited by Azrael1911, 23 June 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[1453 R]

I think this particular point has a lot of merit in the discussions held in this thread, so I'ma quote it out over here, too.

1453 R, on 23 June 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Let me say it more plainly then, since your hearing apparently ain’t up to snuff. Sorry ‘bout that, by the way – I’m half-deaf in one ear, I can totally relate.

How about we go with “I want a ‘Mech which takes a disproportionately high weight of engine tonnage to be disproportionately faster/more agile/better at moving than a ‘Mech which drops every single ton of weight it possible can to stuff more guns on.” If I stuff a giant engine in my Victors, I want it to move like it has a giant engine in it. If my Timber Wolves are locked into a 375XL engine, I want them to move like they have 375XL engines in them.

Let’s put this another way – you can’t punish people who go engine-heavy unfairly for not going gun-heavy. If a Cataphract has a giant pile of guns but is slow and kinda cumbersome, and we have these Victors (or Timber Wolves) which carry significantly less weight of guns but are fast and agile to make up for it…but then they get nerfed so they’re not fast and agile anymore…what sort of message are you sending to players who prefer to bring enough firepower in just the right spot, rather than ALL the firepower chugging along five minutes behind the fight at all times?

The faster-than-normal ‘Mechs get nerfed and nerfed and nerfed, their agility gets taken away from them, leaving them strictly inferior options to the ‘Mechs which are slow but carry tons of firepower since those ‘Mechs don’t have a set number of inherent, systemically unfair penalties blunting what they’re good at. Or: until you nerf the Cataphract’s ability to mount more weight of gun than a 70-ton ‘Mech should rightly be able to, you can’t fairly justify nerfing the ability of a ‘Mech like the VTR or TBR to take more engine than most other ‘Mechs of its size can.

That’s the complaint, Pygar – the inherent unfairness in taking a ‘Mech which is supposed to be fast but less well-armed, and then making it not-fast but also still less well-armed. That clear things up for you?

[Shalune]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

We've discussed this subject with the other top team in the game, Steel Jaguar. These kinds of findings aren't made in a vacuum.

I'm also curious who you think are the ones who make those 'meta' builds in the first place...

I'm so glad I have the geniuses from on-high to show me how to put 2 ER PPCs, Gauss and JJ on a Timber Wolf. Everyone with a basic understanding of the game saw this build in Smurfy before the clans even launched.

Now if you're implying I said this was not a good mech build, kindly point out where I said that. I'm pointing out the flaws in your assumption that what's good right now is and will always be the best there is barring further balancing.

I'd liken things to Starcraft 2. The developers don't even need to make mechanical changes to the game for the meta to shift. Assuming the same could never happen here, especially following such a large influx of changes and new mechanics, is premature.

[Ghogiel]

Shalune, on 23 June 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Except that the OP is full of horrific flaws, unsubstantiated claims, and jumping to his own conclusions without following a logical trail.

One example of many:
'Clan dps is better therefor effectiveness is universally up and TTK is universally down, and many lights and mediums are now ineffective'

Damage numbers on their own are almost meaningless. This is why LRMs can get such high numbers but are not used in truly competitive play. What's important is how much damage you deal to components that directly contribute to a kill (ex: CT). Clan weapons spread damage more which lowers their effective killing power.

As someone else pointed out, skill at piloting does not equate to skill at deciphering game balance. Obviously it comes with the advantage of seeing and experiencing high level play first hand, but this can only benefit you so much. Modern day historians know much more about what trends would shape the medieval world than anyone that lived during that time.

Making these broad and conclusive claims so early on holds no weight. This does not mean they could not be correct, only that they're completely unfounded.

It's not like it takes months for the top to get it's bearing in this game. You are under the incorrect assumption the TBR hasn't been put to the test.

It's meta compliant gold seal approved.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

This only applies for Clan Omnis, in many cases IS Mechs with those weapons still have low/hand actuators. Panther as an example.

Correct, and he specifically mentions it as an advantage:

Quote

The advantages are : Lower weight, less critical slots (can UAC20s in arms with hand actuators!)

While it doesn't make a difference it it started with the actuator or not. It will be removed whenever the cannon is equipped.

[Shalune]

Ghogiel, on 23 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

It's not like it takes months for the top to get it's bearing in this game. You are under the incorrect assumption the TBR hasn't been put to the test.

It's meta compliant gold seal approved.

Correct. It works exceptionally well in the current meta of this minute of this day.

The top teams in the game have spent months playing with similar builds and team comps. They have a chemistry and knowledge that understands how they operate inside and out. So it's obvious that of all the possible mech builds to come out of the clans, this would be the first to rise to preeminence. There is no adjusting that needs to be done to accommodate it, and it is backed up by a wealth of experience.

The same cannot be said for ER SL Novas. Will these ever be competitive? I don't know. But if they are, a team will need to be built and conducted differently in the field to make the most of them. It's natural this would take more time as it requires more effort and has a high likelihood of not producing immediate results of time invested.

This is why any sufficiently complex game such as MWO takes time for the meta to settle in. Remember when we first started seeing CN-9Ds showing up at high levels? The CN was not buffed, SRMs and ML were not buffed. This resulted from an evolving understanding of the game, and how the mech could be used to counter the popular builds of the time. It has similarly faded from use since.

[Adiuvo]

Shalune, on 23 June 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

I'm so glad I have the geniuses from on-high to show me how to put 2 ER PPCs, Gauss and JJ on a Timber Wolf. Everyone with a basic understanding of the game saw this build in Smurfy before the clans even launched.

Now if you're implying I said this was not a good mech build, kindly point out where I said that. I'm pointing out the flaws in your assumption that what's good right now is and will always be the best there is barring further balancing.

I'd liken things to Starcraft 2. The developers don't even need to make mechanical changes to the game for the meta to shift. Assuming the same could never happen here, especially following such a large influx of changes and new mechanics, is premature.

Well of course, that's been the staple for around 1.5 years now. Now, who, 1.5 years ago, helped make that staple?

I'm not implying anything like that.

The meta could shift, yes. Base mechanics are still base mechanics, however. This game is nowhere near as complex as Starcraft, and so far it doesn't seem like there will be any major changes to the game's general playstyle minus SRMs brawlers coming back.

[Adiuvo]

Shalune, on 23 June 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Correct. It works exceptionally well in the current meta of this minute of this day.

The top teams in the game have spent months playing with similar builds and team comps. They have a chemistry and knowledge that understands how they operate inside and out. So it's obvious that of all the possible mech builds to come out of the clans, this would be the first to rise to preeminence. There is no adjusting that needs to be done to accommodate it, and it is backed up by a wealth of experience.

The same cannot be said for ER SL Novas. Will these ever be competitive? I don't know. But if they are, a team will need to be built and conducted differently in the field to make the most of them. It's natural this would take more time as it requires more effort and has a high likelihood of not producing immediate results of time invested.

This is why any sufficiently complex game such as MWO takes time for the meta to settle in. Remember when we first started seeing CN-9Ds showing up at high levels? The CN was not buffed, SRMs and ML were not buffed. This resulted from an evolving understanding of the game, and how the mech could be used to counter the popular builds of the time. It has similarly faded from use since.

ER SL Novas will likely be seeing use in brawler heavy decks, likely serving as a clean up mech as the Ember currently does.

As for the CN9-D... well the CN9-A was the one that was used primarily, and that was a staple of the brawl decks at the time due to it's rather interesting hitboxes that forced only 25% damage transfer to the CT when shot at from the side. It wasn't really an anti-jumpsniper mech, just something that absorbed quite a bit of damage given its weight. Which, I suppose, did help against them in a way...

Edited by Adiuvo, 23 June 2014 - 03:35 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

Ghogiel, on 23 June 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

He suggests ghost heat on 2 CERPPCs and a nerf to the TBR basically across the board. calcifing the meta, what on earth do you mean?

Ghost heat on 2 ER PPCs really only brings the heavy meta back to the Cataphract. It results in the meta being exactly the same, only the Timber Wolf is no longer any good at it. Meanwhile, everyone else who wants to play with multiple C/ERPPCs without jump sniping is just eating a straight nerf for no good reason. Clan ER/PPCs already create a huge amount of heat, and ghost heat on 2 would make any 'mech with 2 C/ERPPCs dead on arrival.

Quote

Some people also use joysticks too. Bads gon b bad :shrug:

And this is the attitude that drives people insane. The game isn't about winning at all costs to all people. I happen to like builds that cleave closer to canon for aesthetic reasons. I understand that the 'mechs that I play are not hyper-competitive. But that does not mean that builds and 'mechs that don't serve the top tier strategies should be put through the wringer for the sole purpose of balancing top tier tournament play. They shouldn't be neutered on the general field of battle just to serve a player base which is basically the dictionary definition of an edge case.

If you have to resort to mechanical fixes that do damage to vast swathes of the player base, you need to reconsider solutions that affect the core problem rather than shuffling the problem down to the next chassis.

Even after all that is said and done, if pinpoint never gets fixed and jump sniping rules the day forever, is it really bad that the Timber Wolf takes over the Cat 3D in the top Heavy spot? Why can't there be a new best?

[Adiuvo]

GreyGriffin, on 23 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Even after all that is said and done, if pinpoint never gets fixed and jump sniping rules the day forever, is it really bad that the Timber Wolf takes over the Cat 3D in the top Heavy spot? Why can't there be a new best?

Power creep. The Cataphract is already powerful enough and is already a bit of a problem. It's saving grace is that it's either powerful, tanky, and slow, powerful, squishy, and fast, or weak, tanky, and fast. It fits in with that triangle quite well. The Mad Cat however, powerful, tanky, and fast. This is directly due to a result of it being able to apply both endo and ferro, as well as mount an XL engine that can lose a side and still be alright.

[GreyGriffin]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Power creep. The Cataphract is already powerful enough and is already a bit of a problem. It's saving grace is that it's either powerful, tanky, and slow, powerful, squishy, and fast, or weak, tanky, and fast. It fits in with that triangle quite well. The Mad Cat however, powerful, tanky, and fast. This is directly due to a result of it being able to apply both endo and ferro, as well as mount an XL engine that can lose a side and still be alright.

To which I answer... so? Top tier competitors already only using the Cataphract 3D. The Timber Wolf is better. If just having the best 'mech is the concern, then why not just take the new best? All it does it make the jump sniping heavies in tournaments move faster.

The Timber Wolf being straight up good doesn't make the game any better or worse for the vast majority of players. Why should we, the vast majority of players, want to implement mechanics that interfere with our play (yes, it's play, not competition) in the interest of serving an already-broken tournament composition?

If they're not interested in fixing the core mechanics that cause the stale competitive and uppter tier game to arise, slashing the effectiveness of weapons, 'mechs, and builds for the general populace isn't going to result in a new and better game, it results in the upper tier game staying the same, while the middle of the pack gets their fun ripped out.

[Ghogiel]

Shalune, on 23 June 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

This is why any sufficiently complex game such as MWO takes time for the meta to settle in. Remember when we first started seeing CN-9Ds showing up at high levels? The CN was not buffed, SRMs and ML were not buffed. This resulted from an evolving understanding of the game, and how the mech could be used to counter the popular builds of the time. It has similarly faded from use since.

I remember the CN9-A in comp... ?