894 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 23 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Well, if you keep the dissipation at 2.0 you'll get a VERY slow game.

Currently with 15 DHS you get (10*0.2)+(5*0.14)=2.7 H/s. Add in your elite efficiencies and get a 15% bonus: 3.105 H/s. More than true 2.0 dissipation.

Honestly, since weapons fire 3 times as fast as TT, you'd need 6.0 heatsinks to match TT efficiency for heat generated to heat dissipated, but that wouldn't work very well either.

Whole heat system is a tad borked.

I'd personally set the cooling to somewhere around 0.24 - 0.3 per DHS, assuming a dramatically cut down capacity. You'd still be hotter than TT, but it would be much more manageable.

[Dakshinamurthy]

Slightly leaning towards the nova being op too, but not by as big a margin as the timber wolf. It just doesn't seem like it because match making is so skewed towards larger mechs now.

[TOGSolid]

Dakshinamurthy, on 23 June 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Slightly leaning towards the nova being op too, but not by as big a margin as the timber wolf. It just doesn't seem like it because match making is so skewed towards larger mechs now.

I dunno, I've been exclusively running IS mediums and whenever I see Novas it's like a dinner bell goes off in the back of my head. They seem fairly easy to core, but that's all anecdotal on my end and could just be due to ****** pugs being ****** pugs.

[Adiuvo]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

snip

Sustained DPS for SRM brawlers is about triple that of the sustained for sniper mechs. Burst DPS is about 5 points more on average for SRMS, but the sniper mech will only last about 30 seconds if they use burst.

Every competitive drop is tonnage restricted.

Caustic is basically an open field and when you're crossing caldera you're perfectly open to enemy fire...

If you want to change the heat system that's probably for another post. Changing it will require any and all balance done to this point to be thrown out the window though, so I doubt it will ever happen. No point in throwing away two years worth of work.

Edited by Adiuvo, 23 June 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

TOGSolid, on 23 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

I dunno, I've been exclusively running IS mediums and whenever I see Novas it's like a dinner bell goes off in the back of my head. They seem fairly easy to core, but that's all anecdotal on my end and could just be due to ****** pugs being ****** pugs.

There's a case for the 12 ERSL Nova, but that's the weapon... not the mech.

I'll admit I haven't played the Nova or Stormcrow much, but from what little time I have spent with them, I like the Stormcrow MUCH better even with it's lack of JJs. Between the Nova and Shadow Hawk, I'll take my SHDs in a heartbeat.

As a Clan heavy pilot, Novas are indeed lunch. Not quite as lunchable as Kit Foxes and Adders, but close.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[New Breed]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, if the JJ/heat fix isn't enough they will change something else.

The last tournament was a joke for PGI, you think they want the public to see EVERYONE using ONE build and TWO mechs?.

That would be like watching a LoL game with everyone using the same character. Yes, skill becomes a factor but still makes for a much less interesting game. IF they want people to watch it, something is going to have to change.

[Adiuvo]

Mavairo, on 23 June 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

snip

Using JJs puts a random distribution on your shots. There is no correcting it unless you're using a weapon with a burn time, like lasers. Where the shot goes has no relation to your crosshairs during ascent.

[Mavairo]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Using JJs puts a random distribution on your shots. There is no correcting it unless you're using a weapon with a burn time, like lasers. Where the shot goes has no relation to your crosshairs during ascent.

Actually it does, if you notice there's a slight delay where the weapon fires off in relation to where your cross hair shakes at. You are correct in that a burn time weapon such as a ML will help you figure it out readily too to make it less trial and error. You can use a Tag, if you're worried about heat as a "tracer". The delay is long enough that you can at least smack one of the 3 primary torsos on most mechs in the game. You can't gaurantee the shot is going to land where you think your cross hair should wind up, but it gets in a close enough surface area to hit one of the three torsos, when your mech's guns are roughly level with line of sight to mid upper center mass. On an Awesome you'd probably still hit all CT (Never tried it on an Awesome, there's too few of them out there), but you get the idea.

It's considerably more difficult to pull off than simply waiting to fire on descent when your mech is completely stable (for whatever reason. Seriously who decided THAT was a good idea?) but if you think your target will not be in line of sight long enough to pull off a shot on descent, you certainly can take it as a shot of opportunity, and you will likely still hit your target.

I used to be able to guarantee a hit out to 400 meters doing that. Since I'm out of practice now, I'd probably give that promise at around 250 meters as there is considerably less deviation at closer distances.

Edited by Mavairo, 23 June 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Deathlike]

I wanted to write a bigger post/thread in response to the OP's points, but since that would take more time than I'd like to spend at the moment.. I have a different suggestion or two to go with and some thoughts.

The thing about the "meta-Victor" that we all can identify and poke at, is that it's still when engaged @ 90m, the PPC has less of a role... but that can be negated with good teamwork (and as we know, teamwork is OP). So, in trained groups, you can mitigate this weakness... so it's not really a weakness unless you have really bad PUGs.

The Victor's torso twist WAS NOT A FIX, but in some context it did need a nerf... as we try so hard to suggest buffs for the Awesome... but it almost always is a worse choice than the Stalker. So... that's up to PGI/Paul to address.

Almost w/o fail, I see Madcats in EVERY MATCH. I'm kinda convinced a nerf is needed, but as to what, I couldn't tell you what (but it probably starts with some torso twist nerf).

I do however have a suggestion in regards to how you address jump sniping in general...

You can blame/thank Paul for this, but back when he was "trying to buff mediums", what he did specifically was increase the overall "range" of the medium mech. I mean specifically the range of motion (faster torso twist). I'd rather he would've added improved acceleration and deceleration (to be almost as agile as a Light, but whatever.. he's almost always off some mark). If any of you have ever run the Trebuchet (a meta Paul has mentioned in a Vlog), the current buffs allow it to have incredible range of motion... so much so that I don't think the mech can take advantage of due to cockpit vision.. 40 degrees of arm pitch. You can't make use of it.. really (try it).

It got me thinking... what if we "reduced" the effective pitch of BOTH the arm AND torso while in the air? Scale it by tonnage... where the smaller mechs are less affected and bigger mechs are affected more.

For example:
Lights - ~25% reduction
Mediums - ~40% to 50% reduction
Heavies - ~66% to 75% reduction
Assaults - ~75% to 90% reduction

So, you're wondering why this?

If you have ever run the Thunderbolt, specifically the TDR-9SE.. it never ended up being meta. Besides the fact it doesn't have any ballistics, it actually has a VERY BAD range of firing when you're trying to poptart. This in part may be due to the cockpit view... yet it HAS THE SAME torso twist values as the Cataphract-3D.

Reducing the "range of firing" while in the air actually works better this way. You still have pinpoint (which in itself is a problem), but it greatly reduces the jump sniper's effectiveness significantly as currently constituted (across the board). This WOULD NOT affect brawling at all (well, you would only be able to use it on a limited basis for jump brawling). If you only have enough range to fire something slightly below you, you then have less of an incentive to use said tactic. The idea is that it would reduce the effect of poptarting in a map like Alpine, firing down upon an enemy from H9-I10... because you have incredible range to do that. While this somewhat indirectly nerfs "high torso weapons" in a sense, it doesn't make it overbearing... making it a choice of the player if that want it instead of a "given".

I'll write another post about ERPPCS to this thread, but let this settle in for a bit...

For TL;DR reducing the range of motion in the air (aka reducing pitch+yaw by a percentage based on tonnage) would help this significantly.

[Maxx Blue]

Mystere, on 23 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

I like the fact that weapon types act differently from each other. If everything becomes DPS-based, the only difference will be the visuals and sound effects. As such, the boredom factor just increased while the variety factor just decreased.

As for the portion I highlighted ["more friendly to those of us with less aiming skill"] , I will just refrain from commenting.

It's ok, you can comment. I exist somewhere in the fat part of the ELO bell curve, and I understand that. Aside from the occasional match where I get dropped in with 4-man from a comp team, I play in the moderately skilled players zone. There are things about the game that frustrate us that aren't a big deal to the really good players, and vice versa. However, there are way, way more of us medium-skill players and we contribute a big percentage of the money going in to this game. So, it isn't a bad idea to consider what makes the game more fun for us when balancing things. I'm not saying balance the game for mediocre players, but if there are multiple options for a nerf, considering how those options affect players like me isn't unreasonable. Ghost heat hurts worse if you don't hit virtually all of your jump shots, so it's bad for comp players and worse for everyone who isn't as good. I think we can do better than that.

As to your 'everything feels the same' argument, that is a very good one. I would counter that, currently, every other energy weapon in the game is DPS. The only total FLD weapons are IS AC's. Clan AC's are now semi-DPS (a new variety of weapon that didn't exist before...unless you played the AC2 alot), so unless those feel the same as lasers to you, which I admit they might, it is still a different sort of DPS mechanic. Still, would you prefer if it acted more like an LBX? Still get FLD, but no pinpoint. I'm looking at ways to ADD a drawback to PPC's, and we can't change tonnage or crits. If you can thikg of other weapon mechanics that would do that, or you don't think the PPC needs more disadvantages, please elaborate.

Oh, and I am fine with Gauss staying FLD. I think it has enough other drawbacks that, while it would still be a powerful meta weapon, it might not be as prevalent if it didn't synergize so well with the PPC on the timberwolf.

Edited by Maxx Blue, 23 June 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Mystere, on 23 June 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

But it is logical to assume that more engine power equates to more speed and torque. That is most likely the rationale for the current mechanic. And frankly, I agree with it.

Putting a bigger engine in a tank wouldn't make the turret turn any faster and after poking around online for TT schematics, the torso twist mechanism is essentially a tank turret mechanism. Locking the torso twist speed would be very interesting as it would require the players to think a lot more about how they're facing even with a bigger engine installed, much like in a tank sim game. I have a gigantic ***** for tank games though so I totally admit to being kinda biased here.

And yeah, yeah, I know. This is Battletech where the laws of reality are basically completely ****** but it's at least an interesting idea to think about. Anything that adds depth to the game without increasing complexity is worth thinking about.

Quote

Almost w/o fail, I see Madcats in EVERY MATCH. I'm kinda convinced a nerf is needed, but as to what, I couldn't tell you what (but it probably starts with some torso twist nerf).

To be fair, it's the Mad Cat. One of the most iconic mechs in the entire frachise that a gigantic horde of fans have been clamoring for and drooling over ever since this game was first announced. The only way that mech won't see massive use is if it was deleted from the game entirely.

Ghost Bear, on 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

I wouldn't worry about it too much, if the JJ/heat fix isn't enough they will change something else.

The last tournament was a joke for PGI, you think they want the public to see EVERYONE using ONE build and TWO mechs?.

That would be like watching a LoL game with everyone using the same character. Yes, skill becomes a factor but still makes for a much less interesting game. IF they want people to watch it, something is going to have to change.

It's kinda like how the entire "competitive" scene for Battlefield 3 was a gigantic joke. When everyone is running around as an Assault with an M16 it makes for some seriously boring matches.

Edited by TOGSolid, 23 June 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 23 June 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

I wanted to write a bigger post/thread in response to the OP's points, but since that would take more time than I'd like to spend at the moment.. I have a different suggestion or two to go with and some thoughts.

The thing about the "meta-Victor" that we all can identify and poke at, is that it's still when engaged @ 90m, the PPC has less of a role... but that can be negated with good teamwork (and as we know, teamwork is OP). So, in trained groups, you can mitigate this weakness... so it's not really a weakness unless you have really bad PUGs.

The Victor's torso twist WAS NOT A FIX, but in some context it did need a nerf... as we try so hard to suggest buffs for the Awesome... but it almost always is a worse choice than the Stalker. So... that's up to PGI/Paul to address.

Almost w/o fail, I see Madcats in EVERY MATCH. I'm kinda convinced a nerf is needed, but as to what, I couldn't tell you what (but it probably starts with some torso twist nerf).

I do however have a suggestion in regards to how you address jump sniping in general...

You can blame/thank Paul for this, but back when he was "trying to buff mediums", what he did specifically was increase the overall "range" of the medium mech. I mean specifically the range of motion (faster torso twist). I'd rather he would've added improved acceleration and deceleration (to be almost as agile as a Light, but whatever.. he's almost always off some mark). If any of you have ever run the Trebuchet (a meta Paul has mentioned in a Vlog), the current buffs allow it to have incredible range of motion... so much so that I don't think the mech can take advantage of due to cockpit vision.. 40 degrees of arm pitch. You can't make use of it.. really (try it).

It got me thinking... what if we "reduced" the effective pitch of BOTH the arm AND torso while in the air? Scale it by tonnage... where the smaller mechs are less affected and bigger mechs are affected more.

For example:
Lights - ~25% reduction
Mediums - ~40% to 50% reduction
Heavies - ~66% to 75% reduction
Assaults - ~75% to 90% reduction

So, you're wondering why this?

If you have ever run the Thunderbolt, specifically the TDR-9SE.. it never ended up being meta. Besides the fact it doesn't have any ballistics, it actually has a VERY BAD range of firing when you're trying to poptart. This in part may be due to the cockpit view... yet it HAS THE SAME torso twist values as the Cataphract-3D.

Reducing the "range of firing" while in the air actually works better this way. You still have pinpoint (which in itself is a problem), but it greatly reduces the jump sniper's effectiveness significantly as currently constituted (across the board). This WOULD NOT affect brawling at all (well, you would only be able to use it on a limited basis for jump brawling). If you only have enough range to fire something slightly below you, you then have less of an incentive to use said tactic. The idea is that it would reduce the effect of poptarting in a map like Alpine, firing down upon an enemy from H9-I10... because you have incredible range to do that. While this somewhat indirectly nerfs "high torso weapons" in a sense, it doesn't make it overbearing... making it a choice of the player if that want it instead of a "given".

I'll write another post about ERPPCS to this thread, but let this settle in for a bit...

For TL;DR reducing the range of motion in the air (aka reducing pitch+yaw by a percentage based on tonnage) would help this significantly.

The issue is not twisting/pitching in air...that is actually very little part of the problem. The problem is PP FLD damage. Mobility is little to do with jump sniping. Sure, it helps to reposition quicker, though that does not, in itself, make anything a better jump sniping mech than another mech.

The Highlander is still VERY serviceable in this regard, but has less SPEED than the Victor, while having BETTER MOBILITY in confined space. The primary reason they are used less is because hitboxes on the Victor are more favorable for running XL engines. In a HGN you NEED 4 JJs these days to have an efficient jump sniping mech, and the Victor can run 2-4 that weigh less and accelerate more quickly...

If you instituted the HGN JJ changes to ALL assaults and gave the Victor the mobility it had in confined space before, issue solved...

As for clan mechs, I seriously cannot believe this conversation is on page 18...the issue is absolutely NOT mobility...

Everyone is throwing darts at the board and landing in all the markers that dance around the center, the REAL issue, is STILL PP FLD, after 2+ years, it is no different than it was back then...the dynamics have changed some, but the reality is...that is still the case...

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Sustained DPS for SRM brawlers is about triple that of the sustained for sniper mechs. Burst DPS is about 5 points more on average for SRMS, but the sniper mech will only last about 30 seconds if they use burst.

Every competitive drop is tonnage restricted.

Caustic is basically an open field and when you're crossing caldera you're perfectly open to enemy fire...

If you want to change the heat system that's probably for another post. Changing it will require any and all balance done to this point to be thrown out the window though, so I doubt it will ever happen. No point in throwing away two years worth of work.

Except that SRM DPS is spread damage ineffective beyond 180m. And they have to get that close in the first place.

Caustic is an open field with a central point and ridges on either side. The drop points are set far enough away from the points of engagement that it's possible for each side to maneuver through cover before the other side has position to focus jumpshots on them. There are few other maps with that kind of balance--which is a subject for another thread, probably.

The tonnage restrictions on the final were tighter than other setups.

No, this is the right thread for it. Getting balance from where we're at begins with the heat system and our ability to alpha strike with near impunity. It's fundamentally broken--that's why competitive players have been stuck with the same meta for a year and a half. It's prevented every other change from meaningfully altering gameplay.

Bringing up the amount of work done in 2 years as a reason not to make change is a sunk cost fallacy. And I doubt it would take that much work to simply switch the values on the heat system, disable ghost heat, and then see where we're at.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 01:46 PM.

[Siriothrax]

1453 R, on 23 June 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Being fair, I didn’t say 300XL. S’far as I know, the only XL engines in any kind of top-tier match are the ones in the light ‘Mechs.

All Victors.

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

The issue is not twisting/pitching in air...that is actually very little part of the problem. The problem is PP FLD damage. Mobility is little to do with jump sniping. Sure, it helps to reposition quicker, though that does not, in itself, make anything a better jump sniping mech than another mech.

The Highlander is still VERY serviceable in this regard, but has less SPEED than the Victor, while having BETTER MOBILITY in confined space. The primary reason they are used less is because hitboxes on the Victor are more favorable for running XL engines. In a HGN you NEED 4 JJs these days to have an efficient jump sniping mech, and the Victor can run 2-4 that weigh less and accelerate more quickly...

If you instituted the HGN JJ changes to ALL assaults and gave the Victor the mobility it had in confined space before, issue solved...

As for clan mechs, I seriously cannot believe this conversation is on page 18...the issue is absolutely NOT mobility...

Everyone is throwing darts at the board and landing in all the markers that dance around the center, the REAL issue, is STILL PP FLD, after 2+ years, it is no different than it was back then...the dynamics have changed some, but the reality is...that is still the case...

You're misunderstanding. The fact that you get FULL RANGE OF MOTION in the air when trying to fire makes poptarting extraordinarily desirable. If you couldn't use the arms/twist as effectively, you can't fire as effectively on the target. When you reduce the motion, you can't poptart as effectively in certain circumstances.

That was my point.

[Abivard]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Jump brawlers make shallow jumps to spread damage. They won't be impacted by fall damage unless the player is holding down spacebar, which is just bad play. JJ heat needs to be in for everyone, including brawlers, to make JJ mechs and non-JJ mechs more even. There needs to be some drawback besides the (minor) tonnage investment of JJs. I would ideally like for an Orion not to be outclassed by a Cataphract purely because the Cataphract has JJs.

IS jumpsniping was the only option, again, due to broken SRMs. The problem was always that even if you closed the distance on them, you couldn't put out enough damage to kill them before they could kill you. SRMs fix this. Jumpsniping in general is already being addressed by the aforementioned fall damage and JJ heat. We'll see if counters arise in next season of comp play, which for the most part is banning out clan mechs until they become available for cbills. In pugs SRM brawlers are already being used and dealing out some good damage.

A 2xERPPC/1xGauss nerf isn't a nerf to only the Timberwolf. As for its agility reduction, the reason for that is that it outclasses every mech in the game, in every role at the moment. No IS brawler can compete with it due to speed. An IS medium mech can't maneuver around it. A clan medium can't maneuver around it. A Cataphract will *die quickly. So will an Orion. So will an Atlas... why is this OK? Even if it's in a brawler config?


This post is about clan mechs, why are you expecting Inner Sphere things to be addressed?

If you want that info, we've all said the same thing many times.

1) Put in JJ scaling such as the Highlander had, on ALL mechs. IE., linear scaling.
2) Put in JJ heat.
3) Revise jump animations so that you don't get 5 meters free for just tapping spacebar.
4) Put in JJ fall damage.
5) (if needed) require a minimum number of JJs as to reduce tonnage available for heatsinks. Point 1 will ideally accomplish the same thing without a hard limit.

Which does not a single thing to adress the ppc/ac/gauss PP FLD damge, which is the problem in the first place.

Again you and your self proclaimed comps just want to preserve your PP FLD meta, many of you are willing to pay lip service to JJ nerfs because you know that will effect others more than it will your favorite meta.

Now clan weapons balance versus IS weapons balance certainly includes discussing all of the weapons IS and Clan have available to them.

At any level of play PP FLD weapons rule, this is a good hint that they are OP compared to all other classes. the presence of JJ's is really moot to the issue of PP FLD.

Which means logically that the other weapon types need improvement, the offending weapons need to be decreased in power or a combination of both is needed.

Anyone suggesting nerfs to mech variants or a nerf to any non PP FLD weapon system is nothing but a shill for a special interest group that is part of the problem, not the solution.

[GreyGriffin]

I have a lot of commentary reserved for other parts of this thread that address jump sniping and pinpoint damage, but I'd like to bring up an idea separate from the Victor nerf debacle about Timber Wolf balance.

What if it kept VCRs on its shoulders if it removed its missile pods? This would fatten up its side torsos making it a high profile target even in jump sniping configurations.

[Maxx Blue]

If you restrict torso/arm pitch and yaw while airborn, it might have an effect, assuming you nerfed it enough. However, if it did work and jump-sniping was really tough under, say, 300m what will happen next? My guess is one of two things, maybe both: Comp player now run around in a larger circle to keep each other further away, or they do more hill-humping and peek-sniping with firebrands, shadowhawks and highlanders. What I don't think will change is the weapons they use. I am betting they will still use PPC's and AC5 or Gauss, they will just do horizontal-peeking instead of vertical-peeking. Maybe some of the comp guys can chime in and say what they would do.

[Abivard]

Deathlike, on 23 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

You're misunderstanding. The fact that you get FULL RANGE OF MOTION in the air when trying to fire makes poptarting extraordinarily desirable. If you couldn't use the arms/twist as effectively, you can't fire as effectively on the target. When you reduce the motion, you can't poptart as effectively in certain circumstances.

That was my point.

It seems you are missing the MAIN point, PP FLD, we fix that then there would be very little need to come up with all these elaborate JJ schemes would there?

[Deathlike]

Arg, I spend a lot of time writing up a post about ERPPCs... only to rewrite it again...

Here's the deal, my suggestion is to simple change the damage properties.

Now: 10 direct damage, 2.5 splash on each side of the blast
Proposed: 7.5 direct damage, 3.75 splash on each side of the blast

There are literally two things that show a major difference between IS PPCs and Clan ERPPCs and how ghost heat factors (or actually didn't factor) into it.

1) Back at the height of the PPC meta, 3 PPC + 1 Gauss Highlander-732s were just the rage. 3 PPCs generated 8 heat a piece for a total of 24 pts of heat (2 ERPPC generated 12 pts of heat each for a total of 24 pts of heat). Ghost heat DID NOT CHANGE THE SYSTEM. The fact is, going back to TT values (10 heat for PPC, 15 heat for ERPPCs) made a difference. Now, you tend to see ERPPC + PPC combos (totaling 25 pts of heat) which is a far cry from where it was before. Countering PPCs min range was mitigated with teamwork (as it should). The IS ERPPC is fine for the most part... the Clan ERPPC isn't entirely the Clan ERPPC's fault, but how the Clans DHS benefits from just being really powerful naturally.

2) Clan Mechs in general benefit from Clan Endo and Clan FF. Combining both is the equivalent of having putting on Endo/FF (Clan Endo + Clan FF = 14 slots, same as the requirements just Endo OR FF on IS mechs). I put together a quick build of a 2 ERPPC Madcat and stuffed in ~27 Clan DHS on it.. which isn't doable for any IS mech (the most I've put on a mech ever was like 23-24... on an Awesome of all things). The major difference between the IS ERPPC and Clan ERPPC at this point is the extra splash damage... which to some degree makes up for it (5 more pts of damage - 2.5 spread, is not exactly worth scoffing it). It's "almost", but not entirely comparable to running 3 PPC (30 damage) vs 2 ERPPC (20 damage ignoring PPC min range) when the PPC meta was at its best/worst.

So, the best way IMO is to "rework" the base and splash damage, so it doesn't become as OP... instead of invoking Ghost Heat (most inelegant design ever, which I'd rather not reiterate due to being burned out by even discussing that disaster).

Edited by Deathlike, 23 June 2014 - 02:12 PM.