894 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

TOGSolid, on 23 June 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Putting a bigger engine in a tank wouldn't make the turret turn any faster and after poking around online for TT schematics, the torso twist mechanism is essentially a tank turret mechanism. Locking the torso twist speed would be very interesting as it would require the players to think a lot more about how they're facing even with a bigger engine installed, much like in a tank sim game. I have a gigantic ***** for tank games though so I totally admit to being kinda biased here.

In truth, a higher engine rating isn't just the power plant itself- it represents the core of the 'Mech motive system, including it's basic cooling systems and more robust actuator systems to handle the increased power as rating increases.

Given, torso twist speed is pretty even for TT 'Mechs. Everyone gets to rotate one hexside (60 degrees). On the other hand, you can also get 'Mechs with quirks that give you more and some arms with only upper/shoulder actuators that can flip around entirely.

[Deathlike]

Abivard, on 23 June 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

It seems you are missing the MAIN point, PP FLD, we fix that then there would be very little need to come up with all these elaborate JJ schemes would there?

TBH, I don't expect PGI to address pinpoint, since it is beyond their abilities. If there was even some sort of inaccuracy penalty as suggested by Homeless Bill based on the alpha or whatever, then I'd be for that... that's all I've got.

Think about it for a moment though... if you are a Cataphract or Victor and CANNOT LOOK DOWN FAR ENOUGH TO SHOOT at your opponents, then it's a bad position to take. This amounts to getting a "more precise shot" based on your current position.

There was this godawful match that ended in a tie... it was like an Adder/Puma + Madcat vs a lone Jenner up on one of the HPG walls. The Puma died because he was crit CT, but the Madcat was healthy. He was really stupid enough to "hump the wall" of the HPG instead of BACKING UP to fire the ERPPC at the Jenner and trying to JJ up the wall (just really bad decision making). In order to hit the Jenner at ANY level, you need to get a proper angle to shoot the weapons to the target. In a sense, restricting motion often reduces your ability to hit stuff. You'd have to get "extraordinarily good positioning" to fire downwards.

Try firing down from your torso mounts on mechs far below you on Alpine. Only the arm mounted weapons are designed for this... and most poptarts carry weapons on the high mounted torsos. Once you restrict the range of motion, it changes how you approach your target. That is why lasers (or PPCs for that matter) on arms are extraordinarily popular instead of putting it on your torso (unless you have no other choice).

Edited by Deathlike, 23 June 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[Mystere]

Maxx Blue, on 23 June 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Ghost heat hurts worse if you don't hit virtually all of your jump shots, so it's bad for comp players and worse for everyone who isn't as good. I think we can do better than that.

I like Ghost Heat. It's an uncontrolled but temporary chain reaction triggered by firing too many weapons at the same time.

Maxx Blue, on 23 June 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

As to your 'everything feels the same' argument, that is a very good one. I would counter that, currently, every other energy weapon in the game is DPS. The only total FLD weapons are IS AC's. Clan AC's are now semi-DPS (a new variety of weapon that didn't exist before...unless you played the AC2 alot), so unless those feel the same as lasers to you, which I admit they might, it is still a different sort of DPS mechanic. Still, would you prefer if it acted more like an LBX? Still get FLD, but no pinpoint. I'm looking at ways to ADD a drawback to PPC's, and we can't change tonnage or crits. If you can thikg of other weapon mechanics that would do that, or you don't think the PPC needs more disadvantages, please elaborate.

I like PPC splash. Add EMP effects like HUD disruption and I will like the PPC even more.

I'm not too fond of the Clan AC firing in bursts, probably because I find the burst duration too long and thus almost feels like lasers. But, I can live with it.

Clan LRMs are worse than IS ones because of the stream. They should have increased the speed to compensate. That's in addition to the not yet implemented 0-180m firing range.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Almost w/o fail, I see Madcats in EVERY MATCH. I'm kinda convinced a nerf is needed, but as to what, I couldn't tell you what (but it probably starts with some torso twist nerf).

No no no just no. It is the same mistake as they did with the Victors. Torso twist is not the fix to jump jets and is not even needed. Shoot the TW S torsos already have a slower twist speed quirk.

Here is why. First of all it has nothing to do with the real problem in the game jump sniping.

Second we are getting fall damage and jump jet heat to try and get people to use all the jump jets and not just 1. This means the TW s is loosing 5 tons to jump jets. Plus the slower torso twist it already has plus fall damage. Plus the heat of jump jets. Plus having a huge engine you cant change and ferro armor you cant change. So while it will be fast it will have limited weapons and heats. If I was going to do anything I would make the jump jets fixe so you could not remove them and had to keep all of them to use the S toros.

So we have tons of nerfs already coming for the TW S plus what is built into it. It would be stupid to try and nerf it again now. And even more stupid to do it with an agility nerf.

This is what a Timber Wolf S is. Notice the words read it a couple of times.

• Alt. Config. S A highly maneuverable urban combat configuration of the Timber Wolf, the S mounts five jump jets, allowing it to jump up to one hundred and fifty meters. To offset the inaccuracy from using jump jets, the S configuration is armed with a Large Pulse Laser backed up by two Medium Pulse Lasers. The S configuration also carries four SRM-6 launchers and two Machine Guns, making it a deadly close combat fighter. BV (1.0) = 2,229^[3][16], BV (2.0) = 2,462^[2][17]

[Deathlike]

XX Sulla XX, on 23 June 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

No no no just no. It is the same mistake as they did with the Victors. Torso twist is not the fix to jump jets and is not even needed. Shoot the TW S torsos already have a slower twist speed quirk.

The Victor compared to the Awesome may have warranted a torso twist nerf (although, I'd rather have buffs for the Awesome first, because that is a "last resort" option). That speaks to the disparity between mechs of the same tonnage.

Quote

Here is why. First of all it has nothing to do with the real problem in the game jump sniping.

Second we are getting fall damage and jump jet heat to try and get people to use all the jump jets and not just 1. This means the TW s is loosing 5 tons to jump jets. Plus the slower torso twist it already has plus fall damage. Plus the heat of jump jets. Plus having a huge engine you cant change and ferro armor you cant change. So while it will be fast it will have limited weapons and heats. If I was going to do anything I would make the jump jets fixe so you could not remove them and had to keep all of them to use the S toros.

So we have tons of nerfs already coming for the TW S plus what is built into it. It would be stupid to try and nerf it again now. And even more stupid to do it with an agility nerf.

It's hard to qualify said nerfs (until tomorrow) until we experience how it works for ourselves. The assumptions are that "nothing else changes" while this occurs.

Quote

This is what a Timber Wolf S is. Notice the words read it a couple of times.

• Alt. Config. S A highly maneuverable urban combat configuration of the Timber Wolf, the S mounts five jump jets, allowing it to jump up to one hundred and fifty meters. To offset the inaccuracy from using jump jets, the S configuration is armed with a Large Pulse Laser backed up by two Medium Pulse Lasers. The S configuration also carries four SRM-6 launchers and two Machine Guns, making it a deadly close combat fighter. BV (1.0) = 2,229^[3][16], BV (2.0) = 2,462^[2][17]

I'm pretty sure there's a bunch of variants and mechs that suffer greatly if you have to cite canon descriptions. See Raven-2X. It doesn't help for the purposes of balance.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 June 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[Shalune]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

I don't think you read his post, at all. He's calling for nerfs to the PPC/gauss Timberwolf. We've also had zero problems 'getting' that Timberwolf to work fine. I think Heim's W/L in that thing with around 200 matches is at a 7.5, and his KDR is in the 8s. Very weak mech, as you can see. Completely gets outclassed by... like everything.

This whole thread is a joke, but really you folks need to reexamine your logic. You're telling me an exceptional player performed very well in a mech? Stop the presses. That mech must be OP. Because we've obviously tested it against every possible team comp and skill level that could ever exist.

All of your group's posts in this thread are full of broad generalizations based on anecdotal evidence, if that. At best you've pointed to some personal stats of yours which are affected by plenty of factors beyond the quality of the mech build, and form such a small sample size that they may as well have been anecdotal.

The only people with statistically significant data on the current balance of the game are PGI. Even this data is mostly useless as it represents the initial reactions to new mechanics without allowing time for counters or alternatives to be tested.

In short: you are excellent pilots. No amount of skill can let you declare with absolute certainty where the meta is 5 days after new mechanics. Nothing you've presented actually demonstrates your points beyond a superficial level.

[Ghogiel]

What I learned from the first 2 pages of this thread are most players don't play the same game as high level players and also think they understand the game better than them.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 23 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

You're misunderstanding. The fact that you get FULL RANGE OF MOTION in the air when trying to fire makes poptarting extraordinarily desirable. If you couldn't use the arms/twist as effectively, you can't fire as effectively on the target. When you reduce the motion, you can't poptart as effectively in certain circumstances.

That was my point.

Negative, you line your shot up mostly before you get air born, only if that target is unavailable is torso twist necessary, and typically, that is not an issue.

Your point is not a point at all.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghogiel, on 23 June 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

What I learned from the first 2 pages of this thread are most players don't play the same game as high level players and also think they understand the game better than them.

Are the Top Tier going to take part in CW? Or will they continue to worry about simple win lost stats?

[Mavairo]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Are the Top Tier going to take part in CW? Or will they continue to worry about simple win lost stats?

Why is it we can't just admit that CW isn't ever going to happen?
Why is it that after ALL of this time, when we hear CW, we get trembly in anticipation?

[Joseph Mallan]

Mavairo, on 23 June 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

Why is it we can't just admit that CW isn't ever going to happen?
Why is it that after ALL of this time, when we hear CW, we get trembly in anticipation?

Cause it is the only thing keeping me here. I have played BattleBowl for nie onto 3 years now... I have accomplished everything there is for me to do. No CW... I can move on.

[Shalune]

Ghogiel, on 23 June 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

What I learned from the first 2 pages of this thread are most players don't play the same game as high level players and also think they understand the game better than them.

It doesn't take a top level player to tell you a faster poptart entering a poptart meta will be strong, popular, and get good stats when used by a top level player. These are no-brainers, and while they may represent the long term balance of the game there is insufficient evidence to support that or any other conclusion at this time.

[Ghogiel]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Are the Top Tier going to take part in CW? Or will they continue to worry about simple win lost stats?

They'll be getting plenty of W in CW

[Jun Watarase]

Quick scan of the first page, unsurprisingly saw some very rude posts. Sigh...

Cliffnotes version of clan balancing problems :

RIpple fire : Ripple fire is only a disadvantage in one situation : when the target has AMS. This essentially forces everyone to mount AMS or die to mass clan LRMs. Meanwhile the half tonnage advantage of clan LRMs are always present. A situational disadvantage vs an always present, very large advantage. Guess why this is a problem. Im also positive that clan LRMs have faster speeds than IS lrms as i have seen them out-racing IS LRMs quite easily (who float through the sky quite leisurly on the way to their target), so the ineffectiveness vs AMS may not even work out in reality.

Burst fire : Burst fire is only a disadvantage in one situation : when the target can spread/nullify the damage through use of cover (commonly poptarting). In all other aspects, it is not a disadvantage at all. The advantages are : Lower weight, less critical slots (can UAC20s in arms with hand actuators!) and access to UACs that the IS do not have. A situational disadvantage vs an always present, very large advantage. In the case of gauss rifles, there's no disadvantage at all.

Increased burn time : .3s extra burn time in exchange for massive weight, slot and efficiencies gains. The incrased burn time is only a disadvantage where the target can spread/nullify the damage through use of cover (commonly poptarting). In all other aspects, it is not a disadvantage at all. A situational disadvantage vs an always present, very large advantage. Or in other words, .3s more burn time for a large laser that weighs only 1 ton AND is more heat efficient to boot? Yes please!

When an enemy mech is firing lasers at you, they cannot spread damage. Therefore the balancing mechanism fails to work if your enemy chooses to use lasers. This is not a good balancing mechanism.

It was bad enough where you could only compete with meta builds by using meta builds (why do you think poptarts dominated the tournament?), but now you literally cannot compete with clan mechs without using pinpoint FLD meta builds...and even then the clan mechs can do pinpoint FLD just as well (direwolf can do 2x er ppc + 2x gauss).

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Negative, you line your shot up mostly before you get air born, only if that target is unavailable is torso twist necessary, and typically, that is not an issue.

Your point is not a point at all.

Sure, everyone that has a clue does that, but if your range of motion is limited... under my scenario, you can't really torso twist going back into cover with a Victor or Cataphract. Even then, you can't properly drive AND poptart at the same time. See, if you're just going straight up and down, you are a far easier target to deal with. If you are jumping left to right (or vice versa), the imposed limitations would not make that very desirable as your jumping path MUST align with your reticule actually crossing in the path of targets. Limited motion will not allow you to compensate for that.

Part of the change would involve "resetting" your mech when using JJs (think of it like arm lock, but much more restrictive), so that you can't simply just move, jump, and shoot... you have to be a lot more calculated in doing that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghogiel, on 23 June 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

They'll be getting plenty of W in CW

Then I will be seeing lots of them!

[Ghogiel]

Shalune, on 23 June 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

It doesn't take a top level player to tell you a faster poptart entering a poptart meta will be strong, popular, and get good stats when used by a top level player. These are no-brainers, and while they may represent the long term balance of the game there is insufficient evidence to support that or any other conclusion at this time.

Meta filters down from the top level players. Top level players are telling you how the meta is changing. You also listed evidence as to why it's changing. I guess fair enough that you remain skeptical.

[Turboferret]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

In my games, and Heim's, we don't see more CERLL usage than CERPPC. What the general populace brings doesn't really matter anyways. Meta is trickle down and given that clans just released stuff is still being experimented with by a lot of players. Comp players, however, have gravitated towards ERPPC/Gauss.

That's all well and fine, but the game isn't, and shouldn't be, balanced around competitive players. People who pugs are such a tiny portion of the player base that balancing around them at the expense of your "plays for fun/plays occasionally" user is a disservice to the game.

12-man players can abuse the game however they want, but it needs to be in the context of a game that's balanced for public queue games.

tl;dr- 100% fine with weapons being broken in comp if it means it's not broken in queue.

[GreyGriffin]

Ghogiel, on 23 June 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Meta filters down from the top level players. Top level players are telling you how the meta is changing. You also listed evidence as to why it's changing. I guess fair enough that you remain skeptical.

The fixes proposed on the OP don't fix change the meta. They calcify it. What's needed is a fundamental mechanics change that directly affects pinpoint damage to allow the game's other mechanics to emerge.

Furthermore, the OP's suggestions hamstring builds that aren't optimal without understanding that the game is comprised of more than optimal builds. Some people, believe it or not, don't play the meta, and carpet bombing their 'mechs, their weapons, and their play styles to preserve the delicate balance at the top 1% of play is the wrong solution.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

The Victor compared to the Awesome may have warranted a torso twist nerf (although, I'd rather have buffs for the Awesome first, because that is a "last resort" option). That speaks to the disparity between mechs of the same tonnage.

It got a turning nerf. A jump jet turning nerf. A jump jet fuel nerf. And a torso twist nerf. It now turns the same as a 100 ton Atlas. And works really well only for jump sniping something it was never ment to do.