894 replies to this topic

[ShadowWolf Kell]

The crux of the problem is engines altering twist/turn speed. It's been a horrible and shortsighted mechanic imo.

FIX the twist/turn speed on mechs to a default value and all that goes away.

[Adiuvo]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 23 June 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

The crux of the problem is engines altering twist/turn speed. It's been a horrible and shortsighted mechanic imo.

FIX the twist/turn speed on mechs to a default value and all that goes away.

That would indeed solve basically all of this.

[Lynx7725]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Listen I agree that clans are perfectly killable, like I said I do ok against them. But to say the maths don't matter is simply not true. My argument still stands I can bring MORE power at HIGHER armor at MORE speed and deliver all of that at GREATER range. Give me this ability and I have no reason to take something else. Also I am generalizing. Sure there are faster/more punch IS builts etc, but overall the Clan platform is far superior.

Just a quick comment. Clan Mechs follow basic armour rules, so they don't bring more armour -- in many cases, they may be lower then an equivalent IS customized mech.

In terms of speed, because of the locked engine speed, only Clan heavies really have a speed advantage, and they give up a lot of weapons tonnage to achieve that. So they don't really have a speed advantage except in two specific cases at the moment.

Range is not so much an issue when the IS are sneaky. And they are, in lore; that's one early way they evened the qualitative advantages Clan Tech has.

Now weapons power, that one is a clear advantage... until PGI's implementation turned it into DPS and not FLD, which makes Clan weapons weaker. Still generally better than IS equivalents, but not so big an advantage. IS also have advantages in certain weapon classes -- LRMs, and AC ballistics generally.

Fighting Clan at long range on open ground is stupidity. And IS pilots aren't stupid. They'll use terrain and tactics to even the odds, and PGI IMO has done a good job preserving the balance between Clan mechs and IS mechs. The sheer customizability of IS mechs is also another big draw to continue using them. IS mechs still have a lot of attractiveness left in them.

[Maxx Blue]

Since I didn't see any responses to my wall-o-text, what do people think about changing PPC's to the burst-fire mechanic like th clan UAC's? It doesn't have to LOOK like a burst. More of a ghost-busters stream look would be cool, but just functionaly not land all it's damage in a single hit. I personally think that is more friendly to those of us with less aiming skill, and making PPC's into DPS weapons forces the really good players to evaluate which DPS weapons are better, PPC's, clan AC's or lasers rather than taking all the FLD they can.

So, burst PPC? Yes or no, and why?

Edited by Maxx Blue, 23 June 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

snip

Ideally brawlers will be in a place that despite the damage they take on approach they'll be able to kill things once they close in, if not outplayed. Snipers need to be strong at long range and short at weak. Likewise brawlers strong at short and weak at long. It's kind of the point. If SRMs need further adjustments to make this true then that's where the the conversation needs to begin.

The match proves the strength of a mixed deck over a pure sniper deck... like I said before we're a better team than 228th. Yet they brought it to a 12-10. They played well, and built their deck well. If they had the current iteration of SRMs, they would have won.

The skill in MWO doesn't doesn't primarily come in aim. I mean it's a pretty big part considering how most people can't even do that right nor can they hit the same component... but the majority of it comes in through positioning. Especially for lights.

Edited by Adiuvo, 23 June 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Lynx7725]

Maxx Blue, on 23 June 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

So, burst PPC? Yes or no, and why?

Might need to think about how the interaction with ECM would work. As much as I dislike ECM (as a LRM specialist), having a burst fire ECM disruptor might have issues.

[Lucian Nostra]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Possible Solutions:

2xClan ERPPCs is ridiculously overpowered. Following the current implemented Ghost Heat rule, firing two should cause Ghost Heat. This will require two separate shots, and if you want pinpoint, it's at the penalty of quite a bit of heat.

If you think 2 clan ERPPCs are "ridiculously overpowered" how have you fared in the double IS PPC meta for the last year?

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 23 June 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

The problem with the Timerberwolf lies less in its twist speed than in its turn speed, however. Going back to the Victor and Cataphract, the Cataphract has a turn speed of 45.86 degrees per second, whereas the Victor has a turn speed, with a 385, of 55.18 degrees per second. It can rotate around itself one second faster than a Cataphract with a 280 can. The Timberwolf turns at a rate of 57.32 degrees per second and twists at 100 degrees per second.

Why does the cataphract have a 280 when it can run a 340xl?

If you meant 280 STD you can ignore the following, otherwise:


340xl would put CTF-3D at 54 degrees per second turn speed, 97 degrees per second torso twist, and it can still actually fit 1x JJ, Gauss (3 tons ammo) and 2x PPCs without shaving much armor.

Even with base 10 DHS in the engine at that point, it will have slightly higher cooling efficiency than the Timber Wolf because the Timber Wolf's cER PPCs are 30 heat per volley vs. 20 heat (so the HPS overall is higher, even though the Dissipation rate is higher).

The Timber Wolf has some advantages, but

1) The gap is closer than examples using huge engine disparities.
2) You don't really need a 340xl engine, and can drop down a few notches for more DHS to increase cooling even further.

[Mystere]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 23 June 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

The crux of the problem is engines altering twist/turn speed. It's been a horrible and shortsighted mechanic imo.

FIX the twist/turn speed on mechs to a default value and all that goes away.

But it is logical to assume that more engine power equates to more speed and torque. That is most likely the rationale for the current mechanic. And frankly, I agree with it.

[Khobai]

Quote

If you think 2 clan ERPPCs are "ridiculously overpowered" how have you fared in the double IS PPC meta for the last year?

CERPPCs are much stronger than PPCs though. Mainly because of the range difference. CERPPCs and CERLLs both need their max ranges reduced back to their canon ranges of 690m and 750m respectively.

ISERPPCs should also have their max range reduced to 690m but their heat reduced to 13.5, while ISERLLs seem fine at 675m for the time being.

This would significantly reduce the damage these weapons do when sniping into the other teams deployment zone in the first 10 seconds of the match.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2014 - 12:07 PM.

[Pygar]

Update: Jump Jet nerf is going to focus on fall damage which scales up for heavier mechs, but is going to leave out heat mechanics.

http://mwomercs.com/...41#entry3498841

Still a "soft" nerf, but it is now more squarely aimed at Heavy and Assault mechs with JJets, and especially ones that are skimping on JJets in favor of bigger/better guns.

Edited by Pygar, 23 June 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Ideally brawlers will be in a place that despite the damage they take on approach they'll be able to kill things once they close in, if not outplayed. Snipers need to be strong at long range and short at weak. Likewise brawlers strong at short and weak at long. It's kind of the point. If SRMs need further adjustments to make this true then that's where the the conversation needs to begin.

The match proves the strength of a mixed deck over a pure sniper deck... like I said before we're a better team than 228th. Yet they brought it to a 12-10. They played well, and built their deck well. If they had the current iteration of SRMs, they would have won.

The skill in MWO doesn't doesn't primarily come in aim. I mean it's a pretty big part considering how most people can't even do that right nor can they hit the same component... but the majority of it comes in through positioning. Especially for lights.

My point is that jumpshot mechs aren't weak at any point. At worst, they're even at close range while enjoying a clear advantage beyond 270m. This puts brawlers in a bad place.

That match only shows that Caustic+Conquest gives a mixed deck loadout a shot. Almost any other situation apart from Forest Colony+Skirmish and they would've been outclassed by far.

You're right, aiming doesn't take much skill in MWO. Neither does heat management. Which is why both of those things need a skill-based adjustment. 1) Increase the number of trigger pulls it takes to deliver the damage of our current alpha strikes. 2) Make alpha strikes high risk, high reward shots. Both can be done by adopting a more CBT heat system along the lines suggested by Koniving with a lower heat cap, penalties for reaching different thresholds within the heat cap, and heat sinks that dissipate heat more rapidly. This would avoid having to mess with the convergence system or adding cone of fire.

And it would avoid having to nerf specific styles of play directly. It would affect them all equally.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 12:03 PM.

[xMintaka]

Just spent a little bit of time in Smurfy's building the Victor-DS and Timber Wolf into what I assume are the optimal jump sniping loadouts. Obviously I could be wrong in the way I've built these, but it's clear that the Dragon Slayer is by far the more effective mech. The extra 10kph is a fair trade for more armour and heat efficiency that is astronomical compared to the Timber Wolf.

The mechs below have the exact same pinpoint damage, and similar ground speeds. The major difference is heat, which is crucial in the aggressive style used by the better players.

Dragon Slayer w/ 2xPPC

Timber Wolf

It is not CERPPC's that are overpowered.

Alternate -DS build w/ 1xERPPC 1xPPC


Even in the above example, the Dragon Slayer has far better heat efficiency. The 2 crit CDHS don't come into the equation because the Timber Wolf does not have the tonnage to mount more than one extra.

Edited by Lunatech, 23 June 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It is not CERPPC's that are overpowered.

The damage isnt OP but the range definitely is. Being able to snipe people in their deployment zones on small maps like River City before they even have a chance to move out simply should not be allowed. The ranges on these weapons need to be pulled in. Even a slow mech like a Daishi should have a chance of getting out of its deployment zone without taking damage in the first 10 seconds.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Pygar]

Pygar, on 23 June 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Update: Jump Jet nerf is going to focus on fall damage which scales up for heavier mechs, but is going to leave out heat mechanics.

http://mwomercs.com/...41#entry3498841

Still a "soft" nerf, but it is now more squarely aimed at Heavy and Assault mechs with JJets, and especially ones that are skimping on JJets in favor of bigger/better guns.

BUMP because this ^^ is more important than anything that has been stated in this thread for at least 6 pages^^

Edited by Pygar, 23 June 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[1453 R]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 23 June 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

The next batch of Clan mechs are all going to be faster than their IS counterparts, from light all the way on up to assault.

Every game I've been involved in where I've been with a group at the top of the competitive pile, there are always those individuals who have an ABSOLUTE FIT when something new comes along and they don't want to adapt. Some of the responses are informative, and some just come across as personal QQ bias.... from both sides of the fence and everything inbetween.

I realize this is a heated discussion but try to keep it civil guys. We want constructive feedback not mudslinging.

My first, admittedly very angry, post aside, I’ve tried to keep calm and argue from reason rather than my anger. That’s why I’m pointing out the systemic flaw in angling to remove the Timber Wolf’s agility.

We already have a case where the exact same nerf happened. The Victor put on twenty phantom tons and it seriously hampered the ‘Mech’s ability to do much of anything but popsnipe. It could still drag-race above the generally accepted standard for its size, but its actual agility – the stuff that made it unique in its weight class, the stuff that made it fun – was stripped away from it. Now it’s a decidedly sub-par brawler and only marginally acceptable as a striker because it can be outmaneuvered by friggin’ Cataphracts.

Now the same thing is being suggested as a “necessary balancing step” for the Timber Wolf, which is very like the Victor in its ability to dance below its weight class. Aud mentioned it above – there seems to be an unspoken baseline for heavy/assault ‘Mechs in terms of mobility, wherein anything that moves better than the given baseline is battered about the head and shoulders with the nerf club until it’s back down to baseline, and no matter what kind of significant sacrifices it had to make to perform above that baseline in the first place.

The Cataphract has defined the meta for so long, I would not be surprised if it was the unspoken, even the unrealized, baseline to which all other large ‘Mechs are held. Anything that’s significantly more agile than the Cataphract above the Cataphract’s own weight would send up red flags in the competitive bracket’s collective head and set them to nerfing it back down until it had around the same mobility as the Cataphract – and never mind whatever massive sacrifices or inherent inefficiencies the machine has to make/put up with in order to be more agile than the Cataphract, or the fact that the Cataphract hits a sweet spot in weapon/mobility/hardpoint mix that allows it to carry a disproportionate amount of firepower for its movement profile that no other ‘Mech gets to match.

Or, to put it in a somewhat more TL;DR fashion: I’m rather concerned that people are so used to seeing the Cataphract on top that anything which threatens the Cataphract on its weak front – mobility – is seen as overpowered and gets knee-jerk nerfed…which then leaves it with Cataphract-level mobility but with significantly less armament than the Cataphract, thus putting it safely beneath the Once And Future King once more.

We can’t keep doing this. Not everything above seventy tons needs to move like a Cataphract or worse. Some things are allowed to be big, beautiful hunter-killers, because that’s a perfectly valid playstyle that deserves its spot in the game just the same way brawling does. Or missile boating and jump-sniping, for that matter. They all deserve their place – nobody should be taking up all the places (jump-snipers), nor should anyone get nerf-hammered out of their place (strikers). That’s all I’m saying.

[Mystere]

Maxx Blue, on 23 June 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Since I didn't see any responses to my wall-o-text, what do people think about changing PPC's to the burst-fire mechanic like th clan UAC's? It doesn't have to LOOK like a burst. More of a ghost-busters stream look would be cool, but just functionaly not land all it's damage in a single hit. I personally think that is more friendly to those of us with less aiming skill, and making PPC's into DPS weapons forces the really good players to evaluate which DPS weapons are better, PPC's, clan AC's or lasers rather than taking all the FLD they can.

So, burst PPC? Yes or no, and why?

I like the fact that weapon types act differently from each other. If everything becomes DPS-based, the only difference will be the visuals and sound effects. As such, the boredom factor just increased while the variety factor just decreased.

As for the portion I highlighted, I will just refrain from commenting.

[Treysef]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I don't understand. Clan mechs bring more armor and firepower at a greater speed then IS hands down. How can you guys say they win meta? If I peek at a distance, I get a face full of lasers. As soon as I go into cover I get LRMs. If I attack one on one from close range I get a barrage of EVERYTHING. The only way to play this is to play a tactically perfect game. Its frustrating.

I mean the things can carry 12 (or was it even 14) MLAS at 100 KPH. No IS can do that.

I kill clan mechs too, in fact I got the 8 kill in a round award just recently with my cheese Jager, but what I'm saying is no matter what I do I'm outclassed. I have to play a tactically perfect game while the clan mech sits at 800m just chosing whether he should shoot that ppc, the mlas or the LRM, fondling his balls and just waiting for me to die. Which is completely irellevant because everything outranges everything on the IS side. Their MLas have almost the same range as my LLas for gods sake.

The only thing that works against clans is my god damn AC40 Jaeger which I built as a joke. Now I'm forced to use it for real and its one boring mech to play.

Just so you're aware, Clan mechs do not bring more armor. They have the same armor as IS mechs of the same weight.

[Khobai]

Quote

I like the fact that weapon types act differently from each other. If everything becomes DPS-based, the only difference will be the visuals and sound effects. As such, the boredom factor just increased while the variety factor just decreased.

Theres tons of ways of making weapons different that dont involve FLD. Giving weapons damage types or utility abilities would be a couple ways of differentiating them.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Roland]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 23 June 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

The crux of the problem is engines altering twist/turn speed. It's been a horrible and shortsighted mechanic imo.

FIX the twist/turn speed on mechs to a default value and all that goes away.

This absolutely is a huge issue, and one which has been brought up many, many times over the past few years.

There's really never been any good explanation as to why engine power is related to mech agility beyond speed.

Mech agility stats should be directly set for each chassis, and totally independent from the engine put in them... It would go a long way towards making some of the lower engine rating more useful as well.