894 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 June 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Mostly this, though I don't think it needs to be the whole way down. Just an additional .5 second of shake would remove pinpoint jump sniping from the toolbag of all but the truly 1%. And if they got the skill for it, they should be able to do it.

But when even the Underhive can effectively jumpsnipe, atm, it tells you that we have a crisis of required skill in the game.

All the way down. It also means that sliding down mountaintops and the like isn't some amazing supershoota.



Basically, a newbie doing the jump (or slide down) shot should be about 5:12 on that video. Shots everywhere (though y'know, if they actually aimed they should HIT the target). We can't really do much with convergence, but we can make movement important. Weapons that spread damage over time can have that damage shielded by twists or scattered by target movement or both at once. Jumps should be treated as ways to drop some fire on targets, but lower risk should also be lower accuracy.

[RockmachinE]

Again no answer. I'll try one more time. Why should anyone stick with IS after the Clans become availabe for CBills? What's the incentive? At the moment I see no reason to play IS whatsoever other then the fact that some people just don't want to caugh up the cash for Clan.
I think this is a huge issue, PGI just made 75% of all the mechs obsolete. As any MMO and any game, players gravitate towards whats best in meta. Meta will become Clan mechs - beyond the shadow of a doubt.

WHY SHOULD WE STICK TO IS?

And don't tell me about no community warfare etc. As it stands right now, to play IS is to deliberately nerf yourself back to the stonage in all but a few cases. Most IS builds are useless vs. clans hands down.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 23 June 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Pygar]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Again no answer. I'll try one more time. Why should anyone stick with IS after the Clans become availabe for CBills? What's the incentive? At the moment I see no reason to play IS whatsoever other then the fact that some people just don't want to caugh up the cash for it.

I think this is a huge issue, PGI just made 75% of all the mechs obsolete. As any MMO and any game, players gravitate towards whats best in meta. Meta will become Clan mechs - beyond the shadow of a doubt. If I can bring twice the firepower, twice the armor and double the range at same or even greater speed, why should I play IS?

WHY SHOULD WE STICK TO IS?

Because IS mechs are still technically better, or at least better if you play the "meta" mechs. Try not to flip out and sell all of your stuff until it's proven in the tournaments that IS is obsolete.

Me personally, I have been playing for going on 2 years now- so when I hear chatter about IS being absolete there's a part of me that says "GOOD, WHO WANTS TO PLAY WITH THOSE TIRED OLD TRASH CANS ANYWAYS?"- but I keep a lid on it, because I know other people still want to play them, and they are in fact still very good...in fact I played a match in one of my Jagermechs yesterday for giggles, and it turned out to be my best match all day.

Edited by Pygar, 23 June 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[wanderer]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Again no answer. I'll try one more time. Why should anyone stick with IS after the Clans become availabe for CBills? What's the incentive? At the moment I see no reason to play IS whatsoever other then the fact that some people just don't want to caugh up the cash for Clan.
I think this is a huge issue, PGI just made 75% of all the mechs obsolete. As any MMO and any game, players gravitate towards whats best in meta. Meta will become Clan mechs - beyond the shadow of a doubt.

WHY SHOULD WE STICK TO IS?

I dunno, I've been maiming Clanners left and right in my Orion. And the only meta-powerful chassis for the Clans is the Timber Wolf.

That leaves us with 3/4 of the weight classes being meta-primarily fast IS lights, Shadow Hawks, and Dragon Slayers.

The question should be "Why should we stick to a jump sniping meta?"

[RockmachinE]

I don't understand. Clan mechs bring more armor and firepower at a greater speed then IS hands down. How can you guys say they win meta? If I peek at a distance, I get a face full of lasers. As soon as I go into cover I get LRMs. If I attack one on one from close range I get a barrage of EVERYTHING. The only way to play this is to play a tactically perfect game. Its frustrating.

I mean the things can carry 12 (or was it even 14) MLAS at 100 KPH. No IS can do that.

I kill clan mechs too, in fact I got the 8 kill in a round award just recently with my cheese Jager, but what I'm saying is no matter what I do I'm outclassed. I have to play a tactically perfect game while the clan mech sits at 800m just chosing whether he should shoot that ppc, the mlas or the LRM, fondling his balls and just waiting for me to die. Which is completely irellevant because everything outranges everything on the IS side. Their MLas have almost the same range as my LLas for gods sake.

The only thing that works against clans is my god damn AC40 Jaeger which I built as a joke. Now I'm forced to use it for real and its one boring mech to play.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 23 June 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[1453 R]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

I wouldn't say the Victor was ruined at all... it's one of these things that gets posted on the forums often but I really don't see the proof of in game or otherwise. The mech doesn't move as fast, no. However, it is still incredibly fast given its payload assuming you're using an XL (as you should) of the proper size. It's still an assault mech. It's 80 tons. It needs to be able to be outmaneuvered by mediums, lights, and heavies.

I doubt anybody wants the Timberwolf moved down to Dire Wolf levels of agility. Please don't be hyperbolic. The thing with the Timberwolf is that, despite it having an XL engine, clan XLs don't have the drawbacks of IS XLs. A 375 XL is equivalent to a 305 STD in weight. You're really not sacrificing that much by putting on a 305 in an Orion, just like how you aren't sacrificing much by having a 375 in a Mad Cat.

I pilot (when I’m in the mood to be depressed) a 385XL VTR-9S with an AC/20, paired mediums, and 3xSSRM-2 w/Probe, and the chassis’ entire compliment of four jump jets. It’s still kitted up and ready to go, since I have nothing else that can take a 385XL anyways. Very literally as fast and agile as one could physically make the ‘Mech move. It used to be one of my absolute best chassis, a sprinting cannon-blasting Juggernaut (while its armor held out), and an absolute joy to pilot.

Then Piranha made it move like an Atlas in everything but the straightline dragster rush, and while my enormous, meta-inefficient weight of engine counteracted that to a great degree, the magic definitely went out of the thing. I’m no longer significantly more agile than a 280STD Cataphract carrying most of my armor and more armament than I bring to the table. The ability to go heavy strike-brawling in the Victor was noticeably curtailed by the fact that Piranha very literally stripped its gears.

Not that anybody in the competitive scene cares much. They may miss the occasional lulz drop in semicomp matches with brawling Victors, and you can certainly go strike-brawling all you want in the public queue with your exceptional aim and defensive skills, but you guys never put anything bigger than a 300STD in it anyways when you wanted to win. At that point it’s an Atlas with jump jets and better hitboxes/hardpoints.

Nevertheless, this is all very much beside the point. First the Victor, now the Timber Wolf. What happens when we get the next big, agile Clan heavy? What happens when we get the next Inner Sphere high-speed 70+ ‘Mech? We can’t go around murdering the movement profiles of every single ‘Mech above seventy tons that dares to show more pep in its step than a dead rhinoceros. Is the Timber Wolf a fantastic chassis? Yes, of course – but we all knew it was going to be. It should be a ‘Mech you have to take into consideration when building your own loadouts or working up your drop decks. Giving it the twenty-phantom-tons treatment the same as Piranha did the Victor (sorry for the hyperbole earlier. It’d move like a Banshee, not a Dire Wolf) ruins it for anything but the one job you’re trying to deny to it.

I don’t subscribe to the active-malevolence notion as much as the rest of the folks around here – you’re not trying to ’secure the continued dominance of the CTF-3D’ or any such nonsense. However, you’re also basically asking Piranha to institute a systematic nerf to every single heavy and assault ‘Mech capable of going over 70kph, such that it moves/twists/turns such as it would if it was a version of itself that moved 70kph, regardless of its actual speed, weight of engine, or efficiencies. As evinced by the fact that the first breakout ‘Mech to really push the envelope for mobility in a heavy platform got smashed in the face by the nerf crane, and now the second ‘Mech to do the same is being eyeballed for the same treatment by the players who, at one time, rose up in anger over the Victor’s being ruined for anything but jump-sniping.

How does that even remotely strike you folks as fair, if I may ask?

[wanderer]

It's that of what you have, the Boomjager is one of the things that outdoes a Clanner- you have ballistics that put huge frickin holes in things vs. ones that spray damage across targets.

My LRMs punch through AMS that Clan ones fizzle out on, since mine cluster and theirs stream. Clan lasers do worse against lights because they tend to waste more beam damage on terrain vs. time spent crossing armor. Clan lights dodge more poorly, meaning IS lights win on mobility as well. Put an Ember on an Adder or Kit Fox, it'll generally eat it alive, never mind what they do to Dire Wolves! Clan assaults are also less agile, which means a flanked Clan assault is generally one that suffers- they deliver better frontal firepower, but again, get crushed by mobile opponents in lights and even mediums.

I mean, I had a game where I fully expected to be hosed because I got caught out in the open and had Clan AC's and lasers tearing me up. I twisted, I sidestepped...and if it'd been IS 'Mechs, I'd have lost sections. Instead, I just had shredded armor and a barely-yellow CT, even with three mediums and a Timber Wolf hammering on me for a half-minute straight.

[Wispsy]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I don't understand. Clan mechs bring more armor and firepower at a greater speed then IS hands down. How can you guys say they win meta? If I peek at a distance, I get a face full of lasers. As soon as I go into cover I get LRMs. If I attack one on one from close range I get a barrage of EVERYTHING. The only way to play this is to play a tactically perfect game. Its frustrating.

I mean the things can carry 12 (or was it even 14) MLAS at 100 KPH. No IS can do that.

I kill clan mechs too, in fact I got the 8 kill in a round award just recently with my cheese Jager, but what I'm saying is no matter what I do I'm outclassed. I have to play a tactically perfect game while the clan mech sits at 800m just chosing whether he should shoot that ppc, the mlas or the LRM, fondling his balls and just waiting for me to die. Which is completely irellevant because everything outranges everything on the IS side. Their MLas have almost the same range as my LLas for gods sake.

The only thing that works against clans is my god damn AC40 Jaeger which I built as a joke. Now I'm forced to use it for real and its one boring mech to play.

Look you need to just realize that math does not matter in mwo. I killed 3 clan mechs in 1 game with my IS mech which proves everything you said wrong. IS are obviously better, the Clans are just a lame invading force with no capability of original thought, you just have to outplay them.

Just like why would you take an IS medium over a Dragonslayer...well they are planning to force you into it...so thats why...

Edited by Wispsy, 23 June 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[aud]

I too post here incredibly infrequently but I have no such lauded credentials to back my observations, just an average low/mid elo casual. That being said you asked for outside opinions so kindly don't dismiss them on the grounds that I am not a top elo competitor.

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Now to bring this all full-circle and back to the pinpoint weapon balance, Time to Kill needs to be increased in order for Lights, and even mediums, to be more viable again. It's why I don't believe bringing everything up to the viability of current pinpoint is the solution, and the solution is rather to nerf the current pinpoint weapons to decrease DPS, increase TTK, and make 'Mechs with less armor more viable.

I am in full agreement with you here, I believe increasing time to kill makes the game more interesting and further differentiates MWO from other multiplayer FPS titles.

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

2xClan ERPPCs is ridiculously overpowered. Following the current implemented Ghost Heat rule, firing two should cause Ghost Heat. This will require two separate shots, and if you want pinpoint, it's at the penalty of quite a bit of heat.

While I agree that 2x CERPPC is strong, I believe that like their IS counterparts before them these weapons are not overbearing on their own, only when coupled with other pinpoint+low heat weapons, CGauss in the case of clans, does their effect become overbearing. Your proposed solution is reasonably mild though, personally I would prefer a more unified alternative to the ghost heat system but that's an entirely different argument. The only thing I see this accomplishing is forcing competitive teams to swap back to their ghost-heat-less CTF-3D/VTR-DS, an exciting prospect that I'm not particularly keen to see and I suspect that the competitive scene is also somewhat tired of.

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

This may be the one change that is opposite to my philosophy, but I feel the current IS AC5s are in a good place. They have decent range, decent damage, use good weight and slots, etc. I feel the IS AC10s/AC2s need a buff. Clan ACs, however, are burst fire. They are definitely lacking in comparison to IS ACs. Clan ACs need the duration of shells being fired decreased. The spread is too much and cannot compete with any pinpoint ballistics.

I agree with you view of the IS AC performance. That being said, proposing to make Clan (U)AC's closer to the pinpoint realm of their IS counterparts seems at odds with your stated desire of an increased TTK. Yes pinpoint damage offers the greatest tactical advantage, presently so much so that it overshadows all other methods in most scenarios, as such weapon balance should aim to reduce the prevalence/effectiveness of it or increase the viability of other damage types no? Clan AC are lighter, smaller, and have better DPS than IS equivalent while still providing the AC platform standard of high, ammo-dependent, bracketed-range, low-heat damage weapons. Why should Clan AC be made equivalent to IS AC when other weapon systems (i.e. CSRM6) are objectively better than their IS version(marginally lower damage, half the tonnage, less slots).Should the meta persist, and I see no reason why it won't, IS AC provide a reason to take non-light IS mechs in comp drops. Personally I would prefer that the changes you proposed for Clan AC be instead applied to IS AC, making them also burst-fire but with a better propensity for landing all the shells on one location.

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

For the Timberwolf: The acceleration, twist rate, jumpjet speed, the whole nine yards needs to hit it. It has above average hitboxes which make it difficult to hit when moving quickly or torso twisting fast.

The TW certainly looks strong on paper, not owning a clan pack I haven't had the chance to play one and I haven't dropped enough against them to really get a feel for it. As a hunchback pilot they certainly make me sad in that they move as fast as me with a STD250 but thats not really a shock as the engine rating has been a known factor since well before the clan release. That being said, I'm not certain I see the big problem with it being found to be the best mech. There is always going to be a 'best' mech, ideally all or most mechs would be competitively viable but regrettably that is not the game we're currently playing. What mech would you propose as the baseline for performance in the 70-80 ton range?

My big takeaway from this week? Balance has yet to properly address the overbearing presence of the pinpoint meta, but thats nothing new. The introduction of the clans brings the new apex mech touting the same old tricks, it just does it better than what could before. The meta is so prevalent that it becomes very difficult to see what else is under/over performing, I'd be curious to see what would happen to this game if you removed PPC's or Gauss for a week. SRM's are fixed and clan ER laser ranges gives brawling loadouts better engagement ranges so maybe there will be some shift in the lower tonnage decks, wouldn't that be interesting? I don't think Clans/IS are balanced at a 1:1 level but I'm not really certain that was the objective of the devs to begin with, again its difficult for me to fully grasp the mechanical advantage of most clan mechs (speed, survivability, cooling efficiency, modularity) compared to IS mechs at this point. It is my opinion that it is these mechanical components which will be definitive rather than a particular weapon system when it comes to balance. Assuredly, time will tell.

[Corbon Zackery]

The inner sphere veteran light pilot are have a field day right now. Were not having any issues with the new clan mechs. The larger duration of clan lasers enhances the water pistol effect of lasers. so that were only taking minimal 1 to 2 point damage before a clan laser moves to a new section due to the speed of a light at 124kph to 150 kph. VS the 84KPH movement of most clan mechs. This is spreading laser damage to such a extent were taking very little damage. The burst fire Auto cannons have the same water pistol effect since your moving and I am moving. So its like being hit by a LBX pellet.


Because of the fixed eng. on clan light mechs they have no way to match the speed of a inner sphere Light mech giving us the freedom to attack mechs at will with no worry of reprisal unless a inner sphere light mech is present.

Were seeing the redundant weapon loads on high heat maps shutting down Clan mechs at a rapid rate. Leaving them defenseless. TheB33f just released a Youtube making fun of it.

http://youtu.be/PF7QcaJcw4A

So I don't see any Clan overbalance.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 23 June 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Maxx Blue, on 23 June 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

I am OK with leaving Gauss alone for the moment, but to be honest we could make it easier to shoot (I'm looking at you charge-up mechanic) and it wouldn't matter much to the high-ELO crowd. You guys still land a really high percentage of your Gauss shots as it is. Us lower/mid guys are the ones who actually got nerfed by that effect, but it isn;t so bad that I am going to push for a change.

Gauss needs to be adjusted. Even with it's charge up mechanic, it's not overly difficult to use even while jump brawling. You simply have to adjust to the time to aim and fire rythm and that's it. Some people are put off by it and don't like using them, but that doesn't mean they are "hard" to use, because they aren't. You just have to think a few seconds ahead.

The reality is, a lot of people are getting around it with macro software so they can sync PPCs and Gauss together, rather than doing it themselves.

The core of the PP FLD problem isn't solely PPCs. It's also the fact that Gauss provides high PP FLD, ZERO heat and the fastest velocity round in the game and has maintained that due to TT lore.

Weapon velocity is as much a part of the problem as anything else.

[RockmachinE]

Wispsy, on 23 June 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Look you need to just realize that math does not matter in mwo. I killed 3 clan mechs in 1 game with my IS mech which proves everything you said wrong. IS are obviously better, the Clans are just a lame invading force with no capability of original thought, you just have to outplay them.

Just like why would you take an IS medium over a Dragonslayer...well they are planning to force you into it...so thats why...

Listen I agree that clans are perfectly killable, like I said I do ok against them. But to say the maths don't matter is simply not true. My argument still stands I can bring MORE power at HIGHER armor at MORE speed and deliver all of that at GREATER range. Give me this ability and I have no reason to take something else. Also I am generalizing. Sure there are faster/more punch IS builts etc, but overall the Clan platform is far superior.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 23 June 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Listen I agree that clans are perfectly killable, like I said I do ok against them. But to say the maths don't matter is simply not true. My argument still stands I can bring MORE power at HIGHER armor at MORE speed and deliver all of that at GREATER range. Give me this ability and I have no reason to take something else. Also I am generalizing. Sure there are faster/more punch IS builts etc, but overall the Clan platform is far superior.

He was being sarcastic, he actually agrees with you

[Pygar]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Listen I agree that clans are perfectly killable, like I said I do ok against them. But to say the maths don't matter is simply not true. My argument still stands I can bring MORE power at HIGHER armor at MORE speed and deliver all of that at GREATER range. Give me this ability and I have no reason to take something else. Also I am generalizing. Sure there are faster/more punch IS builts etc, but overall the Clan platform is far superior.

It's because the Clan weapons have a bad tendency to spray their damage around like a garden hose....if you catch targets sitting really still somehow, then the extra damage is great- if targets are actually moving around and stuff, not so much. After about a week, I have yet to find a Clan mech build that I can do as well with as I can with my Jagermechs- I have some builds that are close, and see some flashes of brilliance, but that's it.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

1453 R, on 23 June 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

[color=#959595]I don’t subscribe to the active-malevolence notion as much as the rest of the folks around here – you’re not trying to ’secure the continued dominance of the CTF-3D’ or any such nonsense. However, you’re also basically asking Piranha to institute a systematic nerf to [/color]every single heavy and assault ‘Mech capable of going over 70kph, such that it moves/twists/turns such as it would if it was a version of itself that moved 70kph, regardless of its actual speed, weight of engine, or efficiencies.[color=#959595] As evinced by the fact that the first breakout ‘Mech to really push the envelope for mobility in a heavy platform got smashed in the face by the nerf crane, and now the [/color]second[color=#959595] ‘Mech to do the same is being eyeballed for the same treatment by the players who, at one time, rose up in anger over the Victor’s being ruined for anything but jump-sniping.[/color]

The next batch of Clan mechs are all going to be faster than their IS counterparts, from light all the way on up to assault.

Every game I've been involved in where I've been with a group at the top of the competitive pile, there are always those individuals who have an ABSOLUTE FIT when something new comes along and they don't want to adapt. Some of the responses are informative, and some just come across as personal QQ bias.... from both sides of the fence and everything inbetween.

I realize this is a heated discussion but try to keep it civil guys. We want constructive feedback not mudslinging.

[RockmachinE]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

He was being sarcastic, he actually agrees with you

Well that's embarassing .

[Ultimax]

Louis Brofist, on 23 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Again no answer. I'll try one more time. Why should anyone stick with IS after the Clans become availabe for CBills? What's the incentive?

Let's see:

1) Because IS light mechs have massively superior speed, and the top light chassis have overall better hitbox design and are harder to kill.

2) Because the best medium mechs bring enough to the table to be competitive vs. Clan mediums.

3) Because in the heavy category the Summoner is pretty awful, and the best IS heavies have superior FLD pinpoint options in their ACs vs. Clan ACs. The Timber Wolf stands out as an amazing chassis, but mechs like the Jager and Cataphract are still as good as they were a week ago.

4) Because IS is spoiled for choices when it comes to Assault mechs. The Victor is still one of, if not the best, poptart. The Warhawk is roughly in the same zone as the Stalker and Battlemaser - it has some unique advantages, but it also has some unique disadvantages vs. these chassis (all of which are 85 tons). The Dire Wolf has a terrifying amount of firepower, but all the maneuverability of a beached whale, with hitboxes you can see from low orbit and lacks lower arm actuators like a stalker but without the high mounted hardpoints of a Stalker. The Stalker, not without mentioning, is probably harder to kill due to hitbox design even though it's 15 tons lighter.


There are still reasons to use IS mechs.

1453 R, on 23 June 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

I pilot (when I’m in the mood to be depressed) a 385XL VTR-9S with an AC/20, paired mediums, and 3xSSRM-2 w/Probe, and the chassis’ entire compliment of four jump jets. It’s still kitted up and ready to go, since I have nothing else that can take a 385XL anyways. Very literally as fast and agile as one could physically make the ‘Mech move. It used to be one of my absolute best chassis, a sprinting cannon-blasting Juggernaut (while its armor held out), and an absolute joy to pilot.

Then Piranha made it move like an Atlas in everything but the straightline dragster rush, and while my enormous, meta-inefficient weight of engine counteracted that to a great degree, the magic definitely went out of the thing. I’m no longer significantly more agile than a 280STD Cataphract carrying most of my armor and more armament than I bring to the table. The ability to go heavy strike-brawling in the Victor was noticeably curtailed by the fact that Piranha very literally stripped its gears.

Not that anybody in the competitive scene cares much. They may miss the occasional lulz drop in semicomp matches with brawling Victors, and you can certainly go strike-brawling all you want in the public queue with your exceptional aim and defensive skills, but you guys never put anything bigger than a 300STD in it anyways when you wanted to win. At that point it’s an Atlas with jump jets and better hitboxes/hardpoints.

Nevertheless, this is all very much beside the point. First the Victor, now the Timber Wolf. What happens when we get the next big, agile Clan heavy? What happens when we get the next Inner Sphere high-speed 70+ ‘Mech? We can’t go around murdering the movement profiles of every single ‘Mech above seventy tons that dares to show more pep in its step than a dead rhinoceros. Is the Timber Wolf a fantastic chassis? Yes, of course – but we all knew it was going to be. It should be a ‘Mech you have to take into consideration when building your own loadouts or working up your drop decks. Giving it the twenty-phantom-tons treatment the same as Piranha did the Victor (sorry for the hyperbole earlier. It’d move like a Banshee, not a Dire Wolf) ruins it for anything but the one job you’re trying to deny to it.

I don’t subscribe to the active-malevolence notion as much as the rest of the folks around here – you’re not trying to ’secure the continued dominance of the CTF-3D’ or any such nonsense. However, you’re also basically asking Piranha to institute a systematic nerf to every single heavy and assault ‘Mech capable of going over 70kph, such that it moves/twists/turns such as it would if it was a version of itself that moved 70kph, regardless of its actual speed, weight of engine, or efficiencies. As evinced by the fact that the first breakout ‘Mech to really push the envelope for mobility in a heavy platform got smashed in the face by the nerf crane, and now the second ‘Mech to do the same is being eyeballed for the same treatment by the players who, at one time, rose up in anger over the Victor’s being ruined for anything but jump-sniping.

How does that even remotely strike you folks as fair, if I may ask?

Well said.

[Pygar]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 23 June 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

We want constructive feedback not mudslinging.

Part of me wants to agree with you here- but the other part of me realizes that they probably aren't actually accomplishing anything with this discussion anyways... so it's more entertaining to just let them sling mud instead

[Daneel Hazen]

I read this whole thread. Achievement!

[Adiuvo]

1453 R, on 23 June 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

snip

The Cataphract with a 280 has a torso turn rate of 108 degrees per second. The Victor has one of 77 degrees per second. Big difference, but both are pretty usable. There's a line somewhere (i should probably test) where further increases in torso twist rate + arm turn rate aren't much slower than your average mouse turn speed. It's at that point where the difference isn't really 'felt' as much.

The problem with the Timerberwolf lies less in its twist speed than in its turn speed, however. Going back to the Victor and Cataphract, the Cataphract has a turn speed of 45.86 degrees per second, whereas the Victor has a turn speed, with a 385, of 55.18 degrees per second. It can rotate around itself one second faster than a Cataphract with a 280 can. The Timberwolf turns at a rate of 57.32 degrees per second and twists at 100 degrees per second.

Again though, we run into the problem of usability. Coupled with that speed and that torso twist rate, a Cataphract and Victor are both responsive enough that medium mechs and lights can't really maneuver around them if they're played properly. The math just doesn't add up. While you are sacrificing quite a bit by putting in such a large engine (maybe try a 350?) and you aren't particularly getting anything incredibly unique out of that short of a faster speed, how do you propose we make sure the optimized builds aren't more dominating than they already are?

In general, I would love for heavies and assaults to get their agility nerfed across the board. All of them. In the pilot tree they wouldn't get the maneuverability boosts that are already there. Mediums are pushed out of brawling roles due to this and are even still floating around with no unique role of their own.

As for later mechs, depends on what it can do. Mechs can be overpowered due to a variety of factors, not just speed. For example, the Awesome has the same agility capabilities that the Victor once had. It's not OP due to its hitboxes and hardpoint locations.

The Timberwolf has the best of everything. Good hardpoints, good agility, good hitboxes, plus the clan stuff like 7 crit endo/ferro, clan XLs, and 2 crit clan DHS.

Also nobody runs an XL 300 in their Dragon Slayers