894 replies to this topic

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

IS mechanics have already been addressed in numerous other posts. This one doesn't need to be doubled in length. It's already long enough.

What you're saying isn't realistic. Even with coordinated fire things don't die in single volleys. Good players shield their torsos are are able to take a massive amount of damage before they go down.
For example...

First Engagement finals

RHoD finals:

http://www.twitch.tv...light/c/4434543
http://www.twitch.tv...light/c/4434524
http://www.twitch.tv...light/c/4434613

It's a mistake to think that it's a difference between Clan and IS mechanics. It's not. It's the entire game's underlying PPFLD and heat mechanics.

So I used a bit of hyperbole. I've watched competitive play. Shielding doesn't do much for brawlers with the alphas we're dealing with. Even in a brawler's optimal range, a brawling loadout is at best on par with a jumpshot loadout. And that's assuming both mechs are fresh. Which is highly unlikely because brawlers are usually subject to at least 1 if not 2+ crippling PPFLD volleys from jumpshot mechs before they can close.

For brawlers to have a shot, they need weapons that are noticeably superior in close quarters compared to the jumpshot loadouts. And they need to have a chance to close without being utterly mauled. Neither heim's proposals nor the JJ bandaids make that possible.

ETA: Do you think that post-SRM fix, competitive teams in an IS-only tournament with no other restrictions would opt for anything other than the old meta decks?

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[Damocles69]

I am a firm believer that the ppc and the jjs are the direct cause of the current meta. Everything else has been messed with.

[Ultimax]

meteorol, on 23 June 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

OT:
I understand people get sensitive about their precious Timberwolf they just bought, but this thing really needs some tweaking. It's better than the other clan mechs. It makes the Summoner 100% obsolete

The Summoner makes itself obsolete.

Some designs just fail, and a 70 ton mech that can only mount 20-22 tons of weapons fits that bill. No amount of nerfing the TW is going to make the Summoner better than it is.

Then we have people asking to nerf the TW's agility, with a 375 engine that it cannot remove.


A larger engine makes you more agile, that's entirely the point.

Yet we never saw people running 340xls on their CTF-3Ds, they'd rather drop down to 280xl so they can fit 2x (U)AC 5 + 2x PPC. So clearly, poptarting with a 30 point alpha was much more important than being really fast and agile.

[Damocles69]

The highlander JJ scaleing also needs to be applied to all JJ capable mechs

[Mystere]

zaepp, on 23 June 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

I don't know if that would be a good idea. AFAIK, with a Xl280 or XL300 we could build a 2x Gauss + 2 ERPPC.

With Jump Jets.

Sounds more like a war crime.

Edit: Just a FYI and for the record: I don't want it to move like a "big fat and slow assault mech", I would slightly tone down its agility.

It's called give and take.

And making it move like a "big fat and slow assault mech" may not be what you want, but, there are probably those who wish that to be so for whatever selfish reason they may have.

[Wispsy]

My thoughts on balance are better and more accurate then almost anybody in this game...however yes that is only for the top level where people play mechs and strats to their full effectiveness and potential. Of course if this is not something you see or have a full understanding of then many of my comments might not make full sense to you as I often forget to preface my statements with all mechanics and strats that could possibly be involved with said issue (I often assume a base level of understanding and intelligence, which whilst still lacking, is also apparently well beyond average).

Every time I see you make comments about my ability to understand balance it is in threads about light mechs. There is clearly an issue with them...sure you can make them work...but if people can aim, it does not ******* matter...look at how few people play them right now...obviously there are issues...

Now on topic to this thread...I only got partway through so it may be a repeat but everything I have read has been repeated repeatedly anyway...

The Victor nerf to agility was needed...they are worse poptarts now and even still they are hands down the best IS mech. The Timberwolf is the same way. It is so very agile. It moves as fast if not faster then most medium mechs, it is objectively better in every single way...I mean I am happy you get to have fun brawling in your Timberwolf but the rest of us who do not own or wish to use them would also like a chance to play. With zero minimum range this thing can track lights at 150kph with literally zero effort no matter how they run around. How can you be effective against something like this piloted properly in a medium or a light mech? It has zero minimum range, can actually kite the mediums anyway, more armour, better weapons, more room for heatsinks.

Saying weapon balance and all that is not done is all well and good, but that chassis is significantly stronger then any other in the game by itself, irregardless of weapon balance.

The way this game is heading...is not what I would call fun...range of engagement and dps is huge right now so whilst you can do good damage, you cannot get in range (unless, as obviously stated, you are playing with and against people who cannot aim or use their mech weapons/teammates effectively). So people will call for more brawling buffs...which means if you manage to sneak up on somebody the SRMs are going to basically kill them in a shot or 2...then this game is basically any other boring fps I cba to play because nothing but twitch skill with a well synchronized attack bores me stupid.

I tried to help these forums and tell people how they can improve and point out when things are too strong or weak but every time it is just swarms of "**** YOU I KILL PEOPLE IN MY DUAL LBX CAT ALL THE TIME IT IS UNREALISTIC TO ASSUME PEOPLE CAN AIM DIRECTLY AT YOUR CT EVERY SHOT I TORSO TWIST TOO L2P IDIOT COME FIGHT ME IN YOUR SNIPER YOU ARE SO FOND OF I BET I WIN EVERY TIME BECAUSE I NEVER HAVE PROBLEMS WITH DUMB PPC DRAGONSLAYERS ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS GET WITHIN 90M AND STAY THERE"...

[Pappus]

My personal take on the issue is, that the TTK from the front is too low, while from behind it is nice.

I noticed it when I played my CTF-IM, that I would not want to brawl against my own mech, because just going for the CT, which is a pretty easy shot it would only take a couple of seconds to take us down respectively

Why is that? Because 70 front armor or whatever is meaningless. 120 - meaningless.

With burst-dps of 10 or more it means 7 seconds for a heavy, 12 for an atlas and so on. Which is nothing.

So my personal idea was to make frontal armor count for 2 or 3 times, while back armor stays the same.

The big problem here is that, while TTK needs to increase it is important, that flanking maneuvers still are scary. What point does a light mech have, when he manages to sneak up behind you, but it would take him a minute to kill you alone?

In general I mean think about it. A stalker arm has I think it was 56 HP tops. A firestarter with 8 ml can destroy your arm in 2 shots.

I don't care how flanking viability is done, maybe a flat - attacked from behind 50% damage buff or however they wanna do it, but indeed TTK has to go way up.

Lights TTK could go up by maybe implementing something like making them targetable from 500m instead of the usual 1000 or by making LoS sighting a thing of 90° arc instead of 180°

[MeiSooHaityu]

I knew it, the Timberwolf will be nerfed into a pile-o-crap by the time it is available for C-Bills.

Basically, if you paid real money you can pilot a good Timberwolf now, if you use in-game currency (a few months from now), you will finnally get to pilot a nerfed mech with a lot in common with the Victor or Awesome.

Funny thing, it won't be nerfed until about a month or less before it is available for C-Bills. That way the people who bought them will get a good performing mech for as long as possible.

It will be the Catapult nerfs to agility and firepower (early closed beta K2) all over again.

Sweet, that feels fair for Timberwolf fans who didn't buy it with money LOL.

Yea, yea maybe I am being over dramatic, but I feel like it is the way things seemed to get balanced in this game.

[Wispsy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 June 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I still love that the only recommended nerfs from the "Elite" folks, involve direct nerfs to a chassis or things that really won't keep them from poptarting.

Except for all the mentioning of heat on jjs and implementing the same changes the highlander got scaling down to all other classes.......

It surprises you that as clans first come out some chassis or things are stronger then others and need direct nerfs?

[Adiuvo]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 June 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

No, they obviously haven't, since the same broken mechanics still exist.

And we're introducing two new mechanics...which by the way...you have no exact details on to make the assertion that they won't affect brawling..which may or may not fix the problem. And based on the PAST "fixes", will likely hurt brawling as much or more than jump sniping.

See, there is something call precedent, and the precedent is when Paul "addresses" jump sniping it hurts brawling more than jump sniping which is left in place as meta.

And yet again, I have to ask, when has HOL championed jump sniping being fixed before the Clans? Ever?

You suddenly, after 5 days of fixed SRMs, have decided that all is fixed for IS jump sniping but we need to nerf the SINGLE Clan jump sniper?

That seems kind of short sighted.

I said they've been brought up. Not that they've been implemented.

We already have info on fall damage and JJ heat.

Fall damage.
JJ heat.

If these two systems are implemented as said in the posts they won't be impacting brawlers more than they impact jump snipers.

We've advocated changes to jump snipers many many many times. Browse the War Room episodes.

I didn't say that IS jumpsniping was entirely fixed. Hence my 5 further suggestions to it. We've been playing with these weapons a long time, and are the best team in the game at utilizing them. We know what they're good at, and what they're weak at. Theorycrafting is a thing. Brawler mixed teams, even before the SRM fix, were already rather close.

See this match. We're a better team than 228th. However, due to a few of our fuckups and their mixed deck, as well as the map, they were nearly able to beat us. That was one of the closest games I've ever played and they did a good job utilizing the strengths of the map, the spawn, and their drop deck. If they had SRMs they most likely would have won.

1453 R, on 23 June 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

The main thrust of this argument is that the Victor was already completely ruined for the thing people liked to do with it, which was heavy strike-brawling. Even competitive players liked heavy strike-brawling with the Victor – they just didn’t do it because it didn’t win as many games as 250STD jump sniping did. If the comp scene is going to call for nerfs to every big ‘Mech with a big engine that moves the way its tonnage of engine calls for it to move, then you may as well stop releasing big ‘Mechs with big engines. At some point, somewhere, somehow, you guys have to give on the issue of speedy heavies/assaults. Removing the Timber Wolf’s calling card advantage (its excellent mobility has always been a highlight of the chassis in every game/novel/sourcebook/whatever I’ve seen it in) and turning it into a sluggish straightline dragster, a’la the Victor, does nothing whatsoever to impact its meta-ish jump sniping capabilities , but will nevertheless ruin most of the ninety-nine other things you can do with a Timber Wolf.

Just like the very same nerfs killed everything but jump-sniping on the Victor. Do we really want Timber Wolves maneuvering like Dire Wolves? Do we really want that, people?

I wouldn't say the Victor was ruined at all... it's one of these things that gets posted on the forums often but I really don't see the proof of in game or otherwise. The mech doesn't move as fast, no. However, it is still incredibly fast given its payload assuming you're using an XL (as you should) of the proper size. It's still an assault mech. It's 80 tons. It needs to be able to be outmaneuvered by mediums, lights, and heavies.

I doubt anybody wants the Timberwolf moved down to Dire Wolf levels of agility. Please don't be hyperbolic. The thing with the Timberwolf is that, despite it having an XL engine, clan XLs don't have the drawbacks of IS XLs. A 375 XL is equivalent to a 305 STD in weight. You're really not sacrificing that much by putting on a 305 in an Orion, just like how you aren't sacrificing much by having a 375 in a Mad Cat.

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

It's a mistake to think that it's a difference between Clan and IS mechanics. It's not. It's the entire game's underlying PPFLD and heat mechanics.

So I used a bit of hyperbole. I've watched competitive play. Shielding doesn't do much for brawlers with the alphas we're dealing with. Even in a brawler's optimal range, a brawling loadout is at best on par with a jumpshot loadout. And that's assuming both mechs are fresh. Which is highly unlikely because brawlers are usually subject to at least 1 if not 2+ crippling PPFLD volleys from jumpshot mechs before they can close.

For brawlers to have a shot, they need weapons that are noticeably superior in close quarters compared to the jumpshot loadouts. And they need to have a chance to close without being utterly mauled. Neither heim's proposals nor the JJ bandaids make that possible.

ETA: Do you think that post-SRM fix, competitive teams in an IS-only tournament with no other restrictions would opt for anything other than the old meta decks?

Shielding still works just fine for brawlers.

See this match:
http://www.twitch.tv/igp/c/4365750

If they had SRMs during that match 228th would have beaten us. So yes, depending on the map, I imagine you will be seeing SRM decks. Not pure brawlers, but a mix of both sniping and brawling. Which ideally is what this game should be.

[Dawnstealer]

Hopefully this isn't too much of a derail, but what about locking weapons while airborne?

[Adiuvo]

Dawnstealer, on 23 June 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Hopefully this isn't too much of a derail, but what about locking weapons while airborne?

Completely kills jumpsniping which is what prevents this game from being rushes only. It also removes the poking game from lights (which don't need a nerf) and hurts jump brawlers.

[wanderer]

It's not the chassis that's the problem. It's the style the chassis can be used in. Pinpoint-accurate jump sniping.

The real fix would be...killing the ability to snipe in midair. If your FLD barrage is spraying across the target, you can't reliably core out everything in sight, and co-incidentally it makes splash a benefit rather than a bane- splash damage may at least put some damage on-target even if the rest ends up hitting the wrong hitbox.

Note, that doesn't mean killing fire in midair. For anyone. That's plain stupid. Just keep the shake going whether jets are active or not. Voila, all the metasnipers are now spray-and-pray in the air and have to get grounded to put accurate fire downrange, instead of merely cutting the jets, getting instantly settled sights, and *blam*.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Completely kills jumpsniping which is what prevents this game from being rushes only. It also removes the poking game from lights (which don't need a nerf) and hurts jump brawlers.

totally agree.

Still stick by mine as the best solution, as it reduces the efficacy of jump sniping, but leaves it a valid tactic, especially amongst those with higher skill levels. And Lights and Mediums (even some faster heavies and assaults) would be egregiously hurt if they were not able to fire (even at reduced accuracy) effectively while jumping.

What one should not be able to do, without truly Kai Allard Liao level skills and reflexes is pinpoint snipe a target 500-1000 meters away while jumping. But being able to twist and fire on your flanks? Essential for effective Light and Medium Flanker combat.

wanderer, on 23 June 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

It's not the chassis that's the problem. It's the style the chassis can be used in. Pinpoint-accurate jump sniping.

The real fix would be...killing the ability to snipe in midair. If your FLD barrage is spraying across the target, you can't reliably core out everything in sight, and co-incidentally it makes splash a benefit rather than a bane- splash damage may at least put some damage on-target even if the rest ends up hitting the wrong hitbox.

Note, that doesn't mean killing fire in midair. For anyone. That's plain stupid. Just keep the shake going whether jets are active or not. Voila, all the metasnipers are now spray-and-pray in the air and have to get grounded to put accurate fire downrange, instead of merely cutting the jets, getting instantly settled sights, and *blam*.

Mostly this, though I don't think it needs to be the whole way down. Just an additional .5 second of shake would remove pinpoint jump sniping from the toolbag of all but the truly 1%. And if they got the skill for it, they should be able to do it.

But when even the Underhive can effectively jumpsnipe, atm, it tells you that we have a crisis of required skill in the game.

[meteorol]

Ultimatum X, on 23 June 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

A larger engine makes you more agile, that's entirely the point.

Yet we never saw people running 340xls on their CTF-3Ds, they'd rather drop down to 280xl so they can fit 2x (U)AC 5 + 2x PPC. So clearly, poptarting with a 30 point alpha was much more important than being really fast and agile.

And what exactly is the point of this when looking at the TW in the grand scheme of balance? It's really fast and agile thanks to it's 375xl and can jumpsnipe with a 35 point alpha. That is what makes it stronger than all IS heavies 4x3 will match it against.

Edited by meteorol, 23 June 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Roland]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Completely kills jumpsniping which is what prevents this game from being rushes only. It also removes the poking game from lights (which don't need a nerf) and hurts jump brawlers.

I believe that even without jumpsniping, you would still be able to avoid having the game degenerate entirely into close quarters combat.

However, doing so would require more complex maneuvering and usage of terrain on the part of those seeking to avoid the infight.

[Mystere]

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 June 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I knew it, the Timberwolf will be nerfed into a pile-o-crap by the time it is available for C-Bills.

Basically, if you paid real money you can pilot a good Timberwolf now, if you use in-game currency (a few months from now), you will finnally get to pilot a nerfed mech with a lot in common with the Victor or Awesome.

Funny thing, it won't be nerfed until about a month or less before it is available for C-Bills. That way the people who bought them will get a good performing mech for as long as possible.

It will be the Catapult nerfs to agility and firepower (early closed beta K2) all over again.

Sweet, that feels fair for Timberwolf fans who didn't buy it with money LOL.

Yea, yea maybe I am being over dramatic, but I feel like it is the way things seemed to get balanced in this game.

People, prepare for the next not-so-awesome Awesome, Clan edition. The writing is on the wall.

Edited by Mystere, 23 June 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[VIPER2207]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

Refusing to acknowledge the problem doesn't do anything to fix the problem.

Neither will nerfing a single mech (Timberwolf) or a single weapon (CERPPC) do anything to fix the root-problem.
To quote someone who said this to me some days ago: "Please don't go full ****** on me, you can do better than that".

Quote

Even if all of HoL refused to drop in jumpsniper mechs, jumpsniper mechs would exist. And people would still use them.

I don't have any problems with dropping against 1-3 poptarts, it's a valid tactic and that's what it should be. But when you drop against 8 or more of them, then something is really wrong. And again, you won't fix that by nerfing a single mech or weapon.
And another thing: The CERPPC has almost the same stats (except for the one ton less and that 5 splash-damage, but you can ignore the splash when talking about poptarting and pinpoint-damage) as the IS ERPPC... so why nerf the CERPPC, but not the IS version of it?

[Pygar]

You guys have many good ideas, but to be perfectly honest, PGI does not seem overly interested in fixing Jump Sniping- almost every time they have had the opportunity they miss the mark, and at the same time, they just keep coming out with new things that benefit jump sniping. (like jumping T-Wolves that can cheat on JJ tonnage even though many other Omnis can't, Jump Stabilizer modules so you don't take as much leg damage or RDM which protects pop tarts and peep snipers from LRMs)

The Clan invasion has proven to me that PGI can balance things just fine when they actually want to....for whatever reason, they just don't really seem concerned about this issue, otherwise they could have fixed it a long time ago- meanwhile, I'd almost be willing to bet that the next Hero mech will be a Shadow Hawk... and gee, guess what that will be good for.

Feel free to continue arguing about it if you like, but I don't think this aspect of the game is changing anytime soon unless the upcoming JJ nerf does the trick. (which from the little bit I have heard about it- kinda doesn't sound like it.)

Edited by Pygar, 23 June 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Shielding still works just fine for brawlers.

See this match:
http://www.twitch.tv/igp/c/4365750

If they had SRMs during that match 228th would have beaten us. So yes, depending on the map, I imagine you will be seeing SRM decks. Not pure brawlers, but a mix of both sniping and brawling. Which ideally is what this game should be.

That wasn't my point about shielding. It's not that brawlers can't do it. It's that it is of less benefit to them because on most maps, they're taking fire without being able to return it for a long time. So no matter how well they shield, by the time they close, they're crippled and highly vulnerable compared to their jumpshot opponent. And when they do arrive, their weapons aren't good enough to overcome that disadvantage.

That match doesn't prove much. Caustic, and particularly Conquest, are the one map and mode that can promote diverse game play with the current mechanics. Although even the competitive streams I've seen mostly devolve into an Ouroboros around the crater.

So long as players can jump, deliver a 30+ damage pinpoint, FLD alpha, and still fire again, we're not going to see diverse gameplay. Especially not with the current maps. And it's not an especially skilled style of gameplay because almost anyone can learn to successfully point and click 2 or 3 times on 1 component.

Requiring players to land more shots on a component would separate the skilled from the unskilled. Changing the heat mechanic would lead to that.

Let's also be honest, the current heat mechanic doesn't require much skill to manage, either. Not with 4-6 IS MLs or SPLs on a light. Or the ballistic/PPC combinations.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 10:57 AM.