Jump to content

Clan Balance Discussion: A Review Of Pugs After 5 Days

Balance BattleMechs Weapons

894 replies to this topic

#721 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:20 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 24 June 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:


Up until the top tier, this is accurate, but at the top tier- gear counts.

If that is the case then top tier isn't good enough. The Top tier needs to be making suggestions for LRMs to be a useful weapon at their level, but as soon as they became something close to better than AC/PPC there was a lot of whine that it upset the present meta... Isn't that what we need?

Back in CB
StreakCats were balanced by LRMs
GaussCats were balanced by fast lights & LRMs
LRMs were balanced by fast lights

I have fair results against PPC/AC combos. Its not as good as it could be, but frankly I don't play nearly enough to challenge the meta to be 50/50 against it.

Am I top tier, not even close. Could I be?. Indeed I could. But there are just to many things, worth more, than being a master of a niche game. I already did my part to shape the universe this game is in, My Family name is a part of this Universe for all time (or until the next complete retcon). I have a King Crab design canonized in the TROs. We all have our "glory".

#722 Wispsy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Talon
  • Talon
  • 2,007 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:25 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

If that is the case then top tier isn't good enough. The Top tier needs to be making suggestions for LRMs to be a useful weapon at their level, but as soon as they became something close to better than AC/PPC there was a lot of whine that it upset the present meta... Isn't that what we need?

Back in CB
StreakCats were balanced by LRMs
GaussCats were balanced by fast lights & LRMs
LRMs were balanced by fast lights

I have fair results against PPC/AC combos. Its not as good as it could be, but frankly I don't play nearly enough to challenge the meta to be 50/50 against it.

Am I top tier, not even close. Could I be?. Indeed I could. But there are just to many things, worth more, than being a master of a niche game. I already did my part to shape the universe this game is in, My Family name is a part of this Universe for all time (or until the next complete retcon). I have a King Crab design canonized in the TROs. We all have our "glory".


If you make LRMs useful at our level with their current implementation then the 1500 or whatever people playing at that moment who are not there will be permanently 100% crushed by people just holding down right mouse button.

I mean I know you play to roleplay and all that but I play for fun. Whilst we spend a lot of time staring at rocks in this current long range high alpha game style, it was even worse back in lrmageddons or whatever in which the game consisted of 10 mins standing behind wall, 10 seconds of leaving wall and dying.

#723 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:26 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

If that is the case then top tier isn't good enough.

No, House of Lords is not good enough that we can go against Steel Jaguar in Awesomes and Cicadas and win with any degree of regularity if they're able to use the typical Dragon Slayers and 3Ds.

In matched fights, however, we are able to beat them with regularity.

Now, can we beat other teams in Awesomes and Cicadas easily? Yes. In the top top tier though, let's say the top 3 teams, the difference in skill is not so large that it can overcome the crapiness of those chassis.

#724 Bobzilla

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 2,003 posts
  • LocationEarth

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:26 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

If that is the case then top tier isn't good enough. The Top tier needs to be making suggestions for LRMs to be a useful weapon at their level, but as soon as they became something close to better than AC/PPC there was a lot of whine that it upset the present meta... Isn't that what we need?

Back in CB
StreakCats were balanced by LRMs
GaussCats were balanced by fast lights & LRMs
LRMs were balanced by fast lights

I have fair results against PPC/AC combos. Its not as good as it could be, but frankly I don't play nearly enough to challenge the meta to be 50/50 against it.

Am I top tier, not even close. Could I be?. Indeed I could. But there are just to many things, worth more, than being a master of a niche game. I already did my part to shape the universe this game is in, My Family name is a part of this Universe for all time (or until the next complete retcon). I have a King Crab design canonized in the TROs. We all have our "glory".


But there's no progression, make LRMs viable against skilled players, and they become noob eaters.

Have LRMs that need to be unlocked or have a skill tree for better speed/angle/dmg/spread and this would be ok.

#725 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:26 AM

View PostWispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:


I would rather not 1v1 lights I have quite terrible hit detection at the moment. It is simply an exercise in pure frustration. Thank god light fighting is not my role...if you want to do Cataphracts or something though I am game.


My skill in light mechs has atrophied considerably anyways.

We could do a couple of them, I think:
1 meta challenge VTR-DS/TBR
Assault Brawl
Medium furball

I am game for most anything, I just want it to be fun. (More than willing to accommodate in whatever way for Hit detection issues, because those are not fun.)

#726 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:30 AM

Meh! All I am reading is ePeen ... ahem, I meant ... eSport-related.

Where is my Community Warfare?

#727 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:30 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

The people we're fighting all have PPC/AC as well, so...

Anyways, we've done many 12mans with stupid drop decks. Brawler Boar's Heads? Sure. La Malinches because Ryan Steel and Heimdelight are the biggest whales ever? Why not. Brawler LRMs? Hilarious.

When it comes to competition though, at least with good teams we're not going to mess around. Because it's stupid to purposefully take a water pistol when your enemy has a gun.

Most of the people I face do to, and have for months. If you took all flamers yous be fulfilling your example of water guns v pistols and would be foolish and possibly have a lot of fun doing it. However I know a few knife experts who walk away the winner in a gun fight.

#728 Gyrok

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 5,879 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:31 AM

View PostWispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:


If you make LRMs useful at our level with their current implementation then the 1500 or whatever people playing at that moment who are not there will be permanently 100% crushed by people just holding down right mouse button.

I mean I know you play to roleplay and all that but I play for fun. Whilst we spend a lot of time staring at rocks in this current long range high alpha game style, it was even worse back in lrmageddons or whatever in which the game consisted of 10 mins standing behind wall, 10 seconds of leaving wall and dying.


LOL...look at LRMs now...those same people are permanently crushed by them now.

I concede right now, 1 missile boat is not the issue, it is when there are 4-6 LRM50+ boats that things get hairy in PUGs...when you see that...it makes it ever so difficult to close because the second you are focused, you take LRM200+ in a pair of volleys and you are either stripped completely, missing components, or dead...and without coordinated work in pub drops, you really cannot overcome it with teamwork.

The thing is, I really see no way to get around that outside of an absurdly complex matchmaker algorithm, and good luck getting that.

#729 Calamus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Partisan
  • The Partisan
  • 383 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:31 AM

View Postheimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Hello everyone ;) I don't post here often, so I'll just give some info that gives me a bit of credibility here.

I'm a member/starter/one of many leaders for the House of Lords, winners of the PGI First Engagement Tournament and Run Hot or Die Season 3. I've come in first place for Mercenary Corporation in the two Faction Challenge Tournaments, and have 101 'Mechs with 2billion c-bills total accumulated. I've been playing MWO for about a year and a half now with experience in previous competitive FPS games, and a lot of experience competitively with MechWarrior: Online.

And now, onto the important part :wacko:

Clan Mech and Weapon Balance


It's almost been a week since Clans have been released. While we all feel things are revitalized and refreshed, the weapons and how they've been balanced previous to Clans should not be forgotten. The energy, ballistic, and missile weapons are still the three main groups, and new ones with new mechanics have simply been added. This may slightly change the way balancing will be approached, but there are still general rules of thumb balancing much abide by in order to reach some form of equality between all 'Mechs and playstyles.

For example, we have learned, that in an FPS game, pinpoint weapons are inherently overpowering. The Gauss, AC5s, and PPCs are the best weapons in the game due to that. With Clans, we saw the implementation of less pinpoint-oriented ACs. This example is the first of many issues in current imbalances with the meta-game post-clan launch.

The existence of Inner Sphere AutoCannons as it stands, being pinpoint, are inherently better than the Clan AutoCannons. Gauss, both as an IS and Clan weapon, performs better than other Clan ballistics and equal to Inner Sphere ballistics.

This brings me to my next point. With the introduction of Clans, overall Damage-per-second (DPS) has increased. Sustained DPS has also increased. This means Time-to-Kill (TTK) has decreased. For those who remember the introduction of the Stalker before SRMs had their splash damage removed and received a nerf, it was the first 'Mech with the ability to truly high-damage alpha. While the 'Mech worked well in it's time, in the current environment with Clans, it would not.

The introduction of Clans is similar to the Stalker, only it is much proportionately larger. Alphas have even more damage, and there is a greater ability to have greater sustained DPS. This increase causes issues mostly in the lower weights of the game, removing their viability due to having no survivability. Their armor means nothing if it can't take the damage.

Our first lesson: We saw this with the Locust in the Inner Sphere. That viability has now reached other light 'Mechs. Armor given to 25, 30, and even 35 tonners has now become almost meaningless. Lights are almost cornered exclusively into a end of game clean-up role. They can no longer use their speed to take small amounts of damage and dodge many shots, and risk being the squirrel to the dog that is the enemy team. They have lost that role as 'Mechs.

Now to bring this all full-circle and back to the pinpoint weapon balance, Time to Kill needs to be increased in order for Lights, and even mediums, to be more viable again. It's why I don't believe bringing everything up to the viability of current pinpoint is the solution, and the solution is rather to nerf the current pinpoint weapons to decrease DPS, increase TTK, and make 'Mechs with less armor more viable.

Not only is there more damage being done, but the range of engagements has increased. This means, even with the return of SRM hit registration, closing in the gap for brawlers is even more difficult than before. Since many lights, mediums, and heavys can make great use out of the power missile weapon, SRMs, they will die before they get to the fight due to the large DPS being put out by today's current meta-'Mechs.

Even with the addition of heat generated by jumpjet use and fall damage, I still believe that weapon balance is a much different monster. JJs are a monster on it's own, weapons still need adjustments.

Also, since I believe this 'Mech deserves it's own section, the Timberwolf is an atrocity on balance in this game and needs to be nerfed. It is 75tons, goes 89kph, and is better than all of Clan Assaults, Heavys, Mediums, and Lights at literally everything. It can loadout nearly anything, and can out maneuver anything. This is a massive issue.

That being said,

Possible Solutions:

2xClan ERPPCs is ridiculously overpowered. Following the current implemented Ghost Heat rule, firing two should cause Ghost Heat. This will require two separate shots, and if you want pinpoint, it's at the penalty of quite a bit of heat.

With the introduction of longer range engagements, Clan laser duration needs to be increased. Clan pulse laser duration needs to be decreased.

This may be the one change that is opposite to my philosophy, but I feel the current IS AC5s are in a good place. They have decent range, decent damage, use good weight and slots, etc. I feel the IS AC10s/AC2s need a buff. Clan ACs, however, are burst fire. They are definitely lacking in comparison to IS ACs. Clan ACs need the duration of shells being fired decreased. The spread is too much and cannot compete with any pinpoint ballistics.

For the Timberwolf: The acceleration, twist rate, jumpjet speed, the whole nine yards needs to hit it. It has above average hitboxes which make it difficult to hit when moving quickly or torso twisting fast.

Of course, values need to be adjusted as well, but that's not really an area I like to speculate with. I think these are simply the directions, and the values are the fine-tuning. If anyone wants to throw some number adjustments out there for the sake of discussion, feel free B)

Now that I've typed what I feel like I know best about this game, what do you think about it? What should happen to missiles? Which 'Mech quirks and loadouts are overpowered to you? How do you think things are currently stacking up?

Thanks for reading :blink:
Thanks for reading :)



I'm not entirely ready to agree with what youre saying just yet. I do think that clan ACs are inferior right now,but there is a plan to change them so I want to see how its changed first.

I dont agree with your CPPC suggestion. I don't see them being a big OP compared to IS PPCs.

I haven't had any problems with running lights. I love running the Adder, and Mastered it before any of the other mechs. I think the problem is that lights have been able to run around with impunity before, and now they can't. I like that. People are just being careless with their light mechs.

#730 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:31 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

If that is the case then top tier isn't good enough. The Top tier needs to be making suggestions for LRMs to be a useful weapon at their level, but as soon as they became something close to better than AC/PPC there was a lot of whine that it upset the present meta... Isn't that what we need?

Back in CB
StreakCats were balanced by LRMs
GaussCats were balanced by fast lights & LRMs
LRMs were balanced by fast lights


Back in CB, PPCs were not viable due to mechanics problems. (Hit detection, horrible convergence problems, etc.. they were not even viable.) And then there was the birth of the CTF-3D, I remember day one thinking "I am going to bring MW4 back." And the Jump-sniping began. (Again.)

#731 Wispsy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Talon
  • Talon
  • 2,007 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:33 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Most of the people I face do to, and have for months. If you took all flamers yous be fulfilling your example of water guns v pistols and would be foolish and possibly have a lot of fun doing it. However I know a few knife experts who walk away the winner in a gun fight.


Not if they start at range against a competent shooter who knows they are coming for them...the guy with the gun has to **** up haaaaaaard.

View PostGyrok, on 24 June 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:


LOL...look at LRMs now...those same people are permanently crushed by them now.




You and I have very different definitions of crushed. I think they are just getting wrecked by them, crushed is a whole different level.

#732 Harathan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 970 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:34 AM

View PostWispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

...the game consisted of 10 mins standing behind wall, 10 seconds of leaving wall and dying.

Are you suggesting the game doesn't currently fit that description?

#733 Wispsy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Talon
  • Talon
  • 2,007 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:34 AM

View PostHarathan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Are you suggesting the game doesn't currently fit that description?


Yes, whilst it is getting back to that way, there are times it was far far worse then it is now...and it was horrible.

#734 Blacksoul1987

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Vicious
  • The Vicious
  • 392 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:36 AM

View PostMystere, on 24 June 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Meh! All I am reading is ePeen ... ahem, I meant ... eSport-related.

Where is my Community Warfare?


community warfare will not be any fun for a lot of people if we keep the same crap weapon balance and mechanics etc....

#735 Abisha

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 1,167 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:38 AM

don't wanna be the devil's advocate, but how about a 3 step Engine sweep.
it don't have to be a ALL of NOTHING settings.

lets say a 15 rate Engine sweep, bit faster if you like or little slower.

#736 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:40 AM

View PostWispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:


If you make LRMs useful at our level with their current implementation then the 1500 or whatever people playing at that moment who are not there will be permanently 100% crushed by people just holding down right mouse button.

I mean I know you play to roleplay and all that but I play for fun. Whilst we spend a lot of time staring at rocks in this current long range high alpha game style, it was even worse back in lrmageddons or whatever in which the game consisted of 10 mins standing behind wall, 10 seconds of leaving wall and dying.

Until they learn how to fight against them. Your argument is full of air sir. If a play won't stick around to learn how to win a fight, then they are not meant to be here. New players get killed all the time by the PPC/AC meta.

And how is dying to one click rain any worse than dying to 3 click deaths? You die either way. LRMaggedon was when Art was introduced. and the 90 degree direction change WAS over the top (in more ways than one).

If I was playing to roleplay... you'd know it. I also play for fun, but fun is not a straight line. And as it stands it is still the same game with different weapons. Cause if you are using Pop Tart tactics you are staring at a rock and popping up to kill those who are not using jump jets. no matter what weapons are the rage, those not hiding are going to be bullet sponges. It is exactly what it is meant to be.a combat experience.

#737 Sarlic

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Hearing Impaired
  • Hearing Impaired
  • 4,519 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:41 AM

Anyone else annoyed that this thread really needs 37 pages?

Edited by Sarlic, 24 June 2014 - 09:41 AM.


#738 Blacksoul1987

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Vicious
  • The Vicious
  • 392 posts

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:43 AM

View PostSarlic, on 24 June 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Anyone else annoyed that this thread really needs 37 pages?

it doesn't help that people keep making posts like this

#739 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:45 AM

View PostWispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:


Not if they start at range against a competent shooter who knows they are coming for them...the guy with the gun has to **** up haaaaaaard.

No... They don't. Not all gun fights are in open fields. ;)

#740 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:45 AM

View PostBlacksoul1987, on 24 June 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

it doesn't help that people keep making posts like this


Or this? ;)





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users