894 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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It equals "whoever gets the best 12 wins".

Nope because both teams have to use the same 12 mechs. derp.

[Blacksoul1987]

Livewyr, on 24 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Or this?

I was waiting for someone to do that lol

[Mystere]

wanderer, on 24 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Mentioned repeatedly in the thread- if you're in midair, you should have crosshair shake. Period. No cutting your jets and instant perfect aim as you fall like a brick.

As long as the shake is based on some natural oscillation equation, I am all for it. But if PGI again uses what looks like an oscillation based on random numbers, I might end up regurgitating my meal again.

[DeathlyEyes]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Until they learn how to fight against them. Your argument is full of air sir. If a play won't stick around to learn how to win a fight, then they are not meant to be here. New players get killed all the time by the PPC/AC meta.

And how is dying to one click rain any worse than dying to 3 click deaths? You die either way. LRMaggedon was when Art was introduced. and the 90 degree direction change WAS over the top (in more ways than one).

If I was playing to roleplay... you'd know it. I also play for fun, but fun is not a straight line. And as it stands it is still the same game with different weapons. Cause if you are using Pop Tart tactics you are staring at a rock and popping up to kill those who are not using jump jets. no matter what weapons are the rage, those not hiding are going to be bullet sponges. It is exactly what it is meant to be.a combat experience.

It is worse because there is literally nothing you can do. Example you are a lone pugger and you drop on caustic valley. Someone narcs you with clan narc. WARNING INCOMING MISSILE. Run for cover..... Oh wait the LRMs go over all of it. Run for someone with ECM. Oh no you solo dropped and no one happens to have ECM. AMS doesn't really help either. You slowly watch for 30 seconds as your mech disintegrates while there is literally nothing you can do to prevent it. Then you get to search for another 5 minutes in search queue. At least you can go behind a wall and get out of the line of fire from ppc+ac meta. At least the people doing the shooting have to do some degree of aiming.

Not to mention if matchmaker worked the way its suppose to no noob should end up in a match where a bunch of players can consistently 3 shot kill him with pin point PPC+AC mechs. LRMs any idiot with a few friends can easily narc then LRM a mech to death. Especially on maps like Caustic Valley that literally have no cover on them.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 24 June 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Until they learn how to fight against them. Your argument is full of air sir. If a play won't stick around to learn how to win a fight, then they are not meant to be here. New players get killed all the time by the PPC/AC meta.

And how is dying to one click rain any worse than dying to 3 click deaths? You die either way. LRMaggedon was when Art was introduced. and the 90 degree direction change WAS over the top (in more ways than one).

If I was playing to roleplay... you'd know it. I also play for fun, but fun is not a straight line. And as it stands it is still the same game with different weapons. Cause if you are using Pop Tart tactics you are staring at a rock and popping up to kill those who are not using jump jets. no matter what weapons are the rage, those not hiding are going to be bullet sponges. It is exactly what it is meant to be.a combat experience.

The difference is, if you are not a great shooter, you are going to be missing pinpoint shots and you are going to be hitting all over the mech when you do hit it. With LRMs you just find that big red box, hold down that button and there is not a thing they can do about it.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

No... They don't. Not all gun fights are in open fields.

Correct, however in this game they are set up so that you have to cross an open field...which makes things much harder...thats how the maps are.

[Khobai]

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With LRMs you just find that big red box, hold down that button and there is not a thing they can do about it.

Except you know walk behind terrain. Or hard counter them with ECM. Or shoot them down with AMS. So im not really sure what youre talking about... LRMs are a complete joke in competitive play.

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Oh no you solo dropped and no one happens to have ECM.

You always have the option of running ECM yourself if you find LRMs to be that much of a problem.

Edited by Khobai, 24 June 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[Wispsy]

Khobai, on 24 June 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Except you know walk behind terrain. Or hard counter them with ECM. Or shoot them down with AMS. So im not really sure what youre talking about... LRMs are a complete joke in competitive play.



You always have the option of running ECM yourself if you find LRMs to be that much of a problem.

I am not sure what you are talking about...we were clearly talking about if LRMs were buffed to the level that they would be viable in all competitive games (not just op on Caustic).

Edited by Wispsy, 24 June 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Khobai, on 24 June 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Except you know walk behind terrain. Or hard counter them with ECM. Or shoot them down with AMS. So im not really sure what youre talking about... LRMs are a complete joke in competitive play.

Oddly enough, both Wispy and Adi think LRMs are great. Adi even went so far as to say he's expecting competitive teams to start using them.

It's especially interesting since Wispy admittedly almost never gets hit by them.

I guess they are more awesome than we all thought.

Khobai, on 24 June 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Nope because both teams have to use the same 12 mechs. derp.

So, 12 random mechs, both teams get the same 12...doesn't that require more skill than running the same 12 mechs over and over?

I'm curious to hear Adi and Wispy's responses, since they immediately took it to mean "12 random mechs for one side and a different 12 for the other side" instead of comprehending the point.

[DeathlyEyes]

Khobai, on 24 June 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Except you know walk behind terrain. Or hard counter them with ECM. Or shoot them down with AMS. So im not really sure what youre talking about... LRMs are a complete joke in competitive play.



You always have the option of running ECM yourself if you find LRMs to be that much of a problem.

Not all mechs have it certainly not all the trials. I am saying as a person who just started out playing. Also did you know there is no cover from LRMs on Caustic Valley like I described. There is literally nowhere you can hide from LRMs on it.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 24 June 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Wispsy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 June 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Oddly enough, both Wispy and Adi think LRMs are great. Adi even went so far as to say he's expecting competitive teams to start using them.

It's especially interesting since Wispy admittedly almost never gets hit by them.

Since the speed increase of course I get hit by them...for some reason I seem to get a lot of focus, avoiding them entirely would mean not participating in the fight...

I have even said multiple times there is very little real cover from a 733 LRM boat if they position themselves correctly. However most people who use LRMs are not very good with them and most people who are apparently seem to get really bored playing them much. And if you get Caustic and you have LRMs even if you push immediately you are going to have a very hard time...but they are pretty map specific right now.

Edited by Wispsy, 24 June 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 June 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Oddly enough, both Wispy and Adi think LRMs are great. Adi even went so far as to say he's expecting competitive teams to start using them.

It's especially interesting since Wispy admittedly almost never gets hit by them.

I guess they are more awesome than we all thought.

Nope, never said they're great.

I said that they have the possibility of being used (like 1 LRM boat) on a few maps and it wouldn't be detrimental to the team.

That's very very very very (x5) far from great.

[Wispsy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 June 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

I'm curious to hear Adi and Wispy's responses, since they immediately took it to mean "12 random mechs for one side and a different 12 for the other side" instead of comprehending the point.

Right but it is like, I am better with Lasers and some guy is better with SRMs and we roll Lasers...well I am just going to win...

[Adiuvo]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 June 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

So, 12 random mechs, both teams get the same 12...doesn't that require more skill than running the same 12 mechs over and over?

I'm curious to hear Adi and Wispy's responses, since they immediately took it to mean "12 random mechs for one side and a different 12 for the other side" instead of comprehending the point.

If you match the mechs there won't be any differences.

We already have various tonnage limits on various maps that force certain playstyles in tourney play. 540, for example, will never be a sniper fight. It's a pure brawl.

[Khobai]

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I am not sure what you are talking about...we were clearly talking about if LRMs were buffed to the level that they would be viable in all competitive games (not just op on Caustic).

Even during LRMgeddon, LRMs were still garbage in competitive play because of ECM. The only reason LRMs were devastating in PUGs is because you werent guaranteed to get ECM on your team. Also a lot of PUGs are just plain bad and stand in the open getting LRMd.

Quote

I'm curious to hear Adi and Wispy's responses, since they immediately took it to mean "12 random mechs for one side and a different 12 for the other side" instead of comprehending the point.

Which would be 24 random mechs. Not 12.

The idea is you have a standard bracket tournament. But each match gets assigned a list of 12 random mechs that both teams have to use. Both teams use the same 12 mechs though, its not random for each team, because that obviously wouldnt be fair at all.

Heck you could even make it stock mechs only. That would be even more skill-based because you couldnt just stick PPCs/ACs on everything.

Quote

If you match the mechs there won't be any differences.

We already have various tonnage limits on various maps that force certain playstyles in tourney play. 540, for example, will never be a sniper fight. It's a pure brawl.

Which is why stock only is probably better. Then the playstyle is determined entirely by what mechs get rolled up. How each team adapts their strategy/tactics based on the mechs theyre given would be a large part of the skill required.

Edited by Khobai, 24 June 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Wispsy]

Khobai, on 24 June 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Even during LRMgeddon, LRMs were still garbage in competitive play because of ECM. The only reason LRMs were devastating in PUGs is because you werent guaranteed to get ECM on your team.

It was not because of ECM.

[Mcgral18]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 24 June 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Not all mechs have it certainly not all the trials. I am saying as a person who just started out playing. Also did you know there is no cover from LRMs on Caustic Valley like I described. There is literally nowhere you can hide from LRMs on it.

Well, that's a bit of a lie. Ever look around the edges? The large rocks and hills block LRMs. The refinery has some cover as well.

But of course, the fighting normally happens around the Caldera, where the cover is very limited for smaller mechs, and non existant for the larger ones.

Edited by Mcgral18, 24 June 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Roland]

In some ways, the notion of randomizing mech selection can highlight certain aspects of player skill. mainly, breadth of capability.

It's kind of like being able to be awesome with Mokujin in Tekken. It involves some degree of skill, simply because it necessitates a mastery of every character in the game.

[Pygar]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 24 June 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

It is worse because there is literally nothing you can do. Example you are a lone pugger and you drop on caustic valley. Someone narcs you with clan narc. WARNING INCOMING MISSILE. Run for cover..... Oh wait the LRMs go over all of it. Run for someone with ECM. Oh no you solo dropped and no one happens to have ECM. AMS doesn't really help either. You slowly watch for 30 seconds as your mech disintegrates while there is literally nothing you can do to prevent it. Then you get to search for another 5 minutes in search queue. At least you can go behind a wall and get out of the line of fire from ppc+ac meta. At least the people doing the shooting have to do some degree of aiming.

Not to mention if matchmaker worked the way its suppose to no noob should end up in a match where a bunch of players can consistently 3 shot kill him with pin point PPC+AC mechs. LRMs any idiot with a few friends can easily narc then LRM a mech to death. Especially on maps like Caustic Valley that literally have no cover on them.

Sometimes I wonder if the problems with the game are the mechanics, or the players- posts like this tend to make me believe it's the players.

"Any idiot with some friends" is called teamwork, and game designers work hard to accomplish role based team play in games like this....aside from that I wonder if people who are getting hounded by multiple Pop Tarts really feel like there was that much more for them to do, because their teammates could have brought ECM and AMS, which does nothing to direct fire weapons...so what, they have the option to run away and go power down as an alternative to getting killed?

Really, LRMs should be a viable counter to Pop Tarts...but there's too many people who act like LRMs are like cheating or something and feel the need to shame pilots who use LRMs for everybody to understand that.

[MischiefSC]

3/3/3/3 will reduce tonnage on the field significantly. While balance needs looked at I would recommend giving the new mm a week to shake out before balance gets a serious look.

[Xavier]

I have been running 2 ERPPC 1 SRM 6 summoner and let me tell you the heat is absolutely horrible for clan ERPPC's two alphas and you shut down, add in jump jet heat in the future and I am not even sure this build will be viable if you start ghost heating CERPPC's the summoner will almost become a useless build, but thats not the point. Clans are supposed to have an advantage and what the clans brought in reality was an awareness by the IS that they needed to step up their game over time IS technology caught up to Clan tech, but very slowly, I would imagine that as time progresses you will see the margin between IS and clan weapons narrow slightly, but for now I actually feel that PGI has done a good job of balancing the clan influence also what they have done is put some fear back into the light mechs, I can't tell you how many times I saw bold light pilots take down atlases by themselves. this was never natural in any for of historical cannon and I think the introduction of the clans will knock down some of the hubris that light pilots have built up over the last 9+ months. dont' get me wrong light pack mechs are still very strong the lone wolf light days though have been slightly hampered. I feel this game is much more balanced now than before the clans