312 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

Even if you had all the mixed numbers at your fingertips, you really can't say much about how Clan vs IS, or how Clan vs Clan is going to work out in CW. Which is when all the cycling of balance is going to have to be re-done.

It's a good indicator, but who knows how people are going to change their loadouts and playstyles.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Kiiyor, on 17 July 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

At some stage I'll be adding everything back in, and tallying all match results also. I'm trying to avoid it until I've got all the kinks worked out though, because I didn't do the exhaustive double checking I normally would (working VERY late hours ATM, but I'm one of those bizarre people who finds data crunching cathartic). Normally I'd get one of our interns to go over it

Once I've tidied things up, I'll be happier to start filling the first page with kilometers of data. I might have to start using more spoiler tags.

The reason I threw in the data without outliers was to try and get a mech vs mech result. Now I'm worried people will drop into a match, see a (C) mech and go "well, I'm screwed. I'm gonna file this match under R".

One of the issues with removing the (C) mechs is not all those pilots are newbies. Remember you can purchase (c) mechs for MC. Also I occasionally make drops in Trial mechs just for the heck of it if I happen to like the build or just want to see what a chassis I don't own feels like. For example, I think I have roughly 45-50 match in the Atlas RS trial mech alone (because I have fun with it but don't want to invest the C-bills to buy one), plus quite a few in the BJ trial mech as well.

Also your right, people just love to find a reason to fail and being able to point their finger at (C) mechs as the cause for a loss would be just to convenient.

[Gyrok]

lpmagic, on 17 July 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Nice work here, thank you for taking the effort to put this information out there.

There are some mitigating factors to take into consideration, and they are not end all be all.

A large number of higher Elo players do play with Clan mechs, but much less so then IS as a goodly portion of higher Elo players are in the "competitive scene" and that particular set of players is not allowed (in competition) to utilize clan mechs. now by no means is this going to be a larger number of people then are available in this study, but I would suggest that this might sku things a bit as some of the subjectively "better players" drive IS quite a bit more then Clan and not really by choice. but because they need to continue to practice what they will be driving in competition. not the biggest factor by any means

Next, I would add that leaving (c) mechs and disco's in the equation would be potentially the best measure, as these are variables that are part of the vagaries of the game itself, weather everyone drove a clan mech or not, farmers will still farm and bad connections will still be bad connections, additionally, new players will always be involved in the equation until such point as the game stagnates enough to not draw new people in to the fold, IMHO these factors are a natural part of what you are doing.

I would also be interested in the difference between the "solo" queue and the group queue or if there is a variance.

I really love that you took the time and effort to do this, it is wonderful!!
Thank you!

I would dispute that claim, as a GREAT many of the comp crowd is dropping in clan mechs in the pub queue. Maybe not the assaults, but mediums and heavies for sure.

Our group (not surprisingly) drops almost exclusively in them, and I can promise you if we provided screen shots from our group queue matches it would skew things greatly out of whack because while we are the exception, not the norm, we do run a lot of 12 man training in the pub queue against others and those matches would mostly all be 12 clan mechs vs. whatever on the other side.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

IS builds are quite viable, but only 1 or 2 will guarantee 500+ damage/5+ kills per match using very limited narrow builds among weight classes. Clan mechs can do the same with multiple builds and weight classes. That's where the "clans are OP" crowd is coming from. I still see plenty of IS mechs in every drop, but there is definitely a big difference between soloing and grouping. Soloing I typically see 2-3 clan mechs per side... group queue it's 2-3 IS mechs per side.

Go figure

Edited by lockwoodx, 17 July 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Bobzilla, on 17 July 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Even if you had all the mixed numbers at your fingertips, you really can't say much about how Clan vs IS, or how Clan vs Clan is going to work out in CW. Which is when all the cycling of balance is going to have to be re-done.

It's a good indicator, but who knows how people are going to change their loadouts and playstyles.

I agree...in the end, the difference between IS and Clan mechs will matter more and be felt more once IS factions are driving only IS mechs and Clan factions driving only Clan mechs. With current pug play, the balance is going to be different with each game with a mix of technology on both teams, but in CW, that mix may not be likely with house and clan units on either side.

[Lefty Lucy]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 17 July 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Possible the best post ever. In part because the statistics bear out my pre-conceived notion that playing an IS mech right now is only slightly better than disconnecting.

Not true as long as you stick to lights. My Jenner is a rock star.

[HeavyRain]

Lefty Lucy, on 17 July 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Not true as long as you stick to lights. My Jenner is a rock star.

So it all boils down to "either go 140+kph or bring an AC20".
That leaves a lot of mechs in our mechbays, gathering dust .

[Lefty Lucy]

HeavyRain, on 17 July 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

So it all boils down to "either go 140+kph or bring an AC20".
That leaves a lot of mechs in our mechbays, gathering dust .

Yeah, I didn't say it was a good thing. Just there *are* some IS mechs still worth running. While I do wish the game were more balanced, it's not particularly any less balanced now than it ever has been. The problem is that the most powerful mechs right now are only available via cash dollars.

[Oogalook]

PGI: ARE YOU SEEING THIS? HARD DATA!

This is an amazing body of work! Thanks so much, Kiiyor, and please keep us updated! I'll be sending in screenshots as often as I can.

[lpmagic]

Gyrok, on 17 July 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

I would dispute that claim, as a GREAT many of the comp crowd is dropping in clan mechs in the pub queue. Maybe not the assaults, but mediums and heavies for sure.

Our group (not surprisingly) drops almost exclusively in them, and I can promise you if we provided screen shots from our group queue matches it would skew things greatly out of whack because while we are the exception, not the norm, we do run a lot of 12 man training in the pub queue against others and those matches would mostly all be 12 clan mechs vs. whatever on the other side.

Sigh.......

I felt it was worth mentioning that at least a large majority of competitive players have to practice their inner sphere mechs regularly to stay sharp, and I did point out that these folks will not be the vast majority of players, I felt it was worth noting. I myself run clans as often as I can, but I need to intersperse them with IS because that is what I need to play in when I'm in a match, from experience I know that I play more IS then I wish to, since my shiny new toys are sitting there waiting for me just begging me to run them. And at this point, on principal, I'm pretty sure you would take exception with anything I say. Please don't hijack this thread with another entire argument, the OP deserves more respect then that.

[Mystere]

Lefty Lucy, on 17 July 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

Yeah, I didn't say it was a good thing. Just there *are* some IS mechs still worth running. While I do wish the game were more balanced, it's not particularly any less balanced now than it ever has been. The problem is that the most powerful mechs right now are only available via cash dollars.

But considering it is a temporary situation, I'm not too worried about it, especially because I think some of the complaints (especially the P2W ones) are just out of sheer envy.

But then again, some of the claimed top mechs, like the Dragon Slayer and Ember, are also available only for purchase. And that is a permanent (so far, anyway) condition.

<Note I said "some" and "claimed", you nitpickers. >

[Mcgral18]

So, who wants some IS vs Clan 12 VS 12, and perhaps 12 VS 10 if they truly can't compete.

Should it keep the 3/3/3/3? I could do Clan light or Med, and any IS class.


Shoot some robots, for Science.

[Koniks]

Oogalook, on 17 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

PGI: ARE YOU SEEING THIS? HARD DATA!

Pretty sure PGI has much better telemetry on mech and faction performance than we do. This doesn't really qualify as good data--it's just better than the generic nerf/don't nerf the Clan threads because even if they're bad numbers, at least it's based on something other than "the Clans killed me so nerf the Clans."

[Oogalook]

PUSH

[Koniks]

Assuming the data is representative of MWO pilots there's one conclusion to draw from it:
the average MWO player is bad.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

lpmagic, on 17 July 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Sigh.......

I felt it was worth mentioning that at least a large majority of competitive players have to practice their inner sphere mechs regularly to stay sharp, and I did point out that these folks will not be the vast majority of players,

What game are you playing? PGI allowed the community to drive away so many players that the "vast majority" of players are static and you see the same ones constantly in drops. To claim that the "vast majority" of players are not these folks, is delusional at best, because the only ones that have stuck with MWO are the ones who already know the system.

[Joseph Mallan]

lockwoodx, on 17 July 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

What game are you playing? PGI allowed the community to drive away so many players that the "vast majority" of players are static and you see the same ones constantly in drops. To claim that the "vast majority" of players are not these folks, is delusional at best, because the only ones that have stuck with MWO are the ones who already know the system.

For the record I may see 1-3 of the 23 players in my drop in 2-4 matches in an evening. That is between 3-5 hours of play. Unless dropping with a 10 Lawman team.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 July 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

For the record I may see 1-3 of the 23 players in my drop in 2-4 matches in an evening. That is between 3-5 hours of play. Unless dropping with a 10 Lawman team.

You play at funky hours of the day for MWO. Try prime time for the US.

Edited by lockwoodx, 17 July 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

lockwoodx, on 17 July 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

What game are you playing? PGI allowed the community to drive away so many players that the "vast majority" of players are static and you see the same ones constantly in drops. To claim that the "vast majority" of players are not these folks, is delusional at best, because the only ones that have stuck with MWO are the ones who already know the system.

You are forgetting that we get forced into very narrow bands of ELO brackets which is going to greatly limit your exposure to the player community as a whole. Basically there might be thousands of players but due to ELO you might only see a few hundred at most.

[lpmagic]

lockwoodx, on 17 July 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

What game are you playing? PGI allowed the community to drive away so many players that the "vast majority" of players are static and you see the same ones constantly in drops. To claim that the "vast majority" of players are not these folks, is delusional at best, because the only ones that have stuck with MWO are the ones who already know the system.

uh, I play this particular game exclusively.....comp and for fun.....and have done so since closed beta. The Vast majority of players overall is still the pug, but yes, elo and timing being what it is I also see many of the same names over and over again, depending on the time of day and the particular day, and I play prime time (pst) and often prime time (est) as well. Just because you see the same names over and over is more indicative of the time you play and your Elo (although that is less of an issue in the new MM it seems at least in the group queue). And, you appear to have missed my point, entirely......there are less competitive players then there are pug players, simple fact, though the gap is closing as the overall player base is quite a bit lower then it was, it does spike at times (like when clans were released)

I play daily, for several hours per day, and my statements are not scientific fact but based on my own personal experience take them as you will.