312 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

You would love the ryoken, Jman, since I know you like the hunchback sp.

The ryoken is like the sp was in closed beta, only better since it is fast while also being durable.

The stormcrow is scary, but the nova is downright infuriating. I die a little inside every time I come across a fresh 50 ton nova in my 50 ton hunchback and I have to run away. Me? Mister Hunchback. Running from a 50 tonner?


(nsfw language)

Edited by Jman5, 21 July 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Wow...actual numbers instead of hyperbole? Insanity!

Well done!

[MischiefSC]

Jman5, on 21 July 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

The stormcrow is scary, but the nova is downright infuriating. I die a little inside every time I come across a fresh 50 ton nova in my 50 ton hunchback and I have to run away. Me? Mister Hunchback. Running from a 50 tonner?


(nsfw language)

Depends on the pilot. I die a little inside every time I watch someone try to stand and tank in a Stormcrow or not even bother to stay on target with a Nova.

They are both downright INFERNAL when played right. Crushing, fearlessly destructive. Timber Wolves, being the same speed and a tad nastier are literally the only thing keeping them really in check right now, ironically enough.

With the better CERL range and damage, the Nova pretty much has a 4P on each arm.

That's pretty hardcore.

[BlackDrakon]

Great work man, I want to say thank you for your time on doing so much math!!

Ill try to gather some group screenshots for you. I think you will be amaze on the stomps and effectiveness of the clan mechs in proper hands.

BTW, depending on the group size the stompnes varies.

Give me a week to collect them, and let me ask my unit if they are ok with it.

[Madadh]

Have to agree, the Stormcrow is delicious. It's so good I'd change my allegiance to my prefered clan (Goliath Scorpion) if it was available. The speed combined with the superior range of Clan tech weaponry is just brutal. I've only gotten a little over a dozen games in but the results have been staggeringly good.

[Kiiyor]

Sjorpha, on 21 July 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Would it be possible to make a graph showing how/if the difference in number of clan mechs between teams affect (for example) wins and losses?

It would be interesting to see if the advantage is additive or exponential, and could give a better insight into what the clan vs IS balance might look like on a team basis.

I'm on that. I've got quite a few new stats to throw up in the post 4x3 analysis, and i've got close to 500 matches for that now too.

This stat is helpful:



I can work out the % chance of winning with a Clan heavy side vs an IS heavy one.

Edit: keep sending me data, intrepid mechwarriors!

Edited by Kiiyor, 21 July 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Thunderfrog]

Datapack heading your way with another 25 or so matches.

[ExplodedZombie]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

Well except for the over abundance of Clanners the numbers look a bit off. Clanners should be out damaging us Spheroids by a greater margin.

I use both IS and Clan mechs. Lately I've been focussing on Clan because...they need to be leveled. I get lots of kills and do really high damage. A few days ago I dusted off my old Ilya Muromets for a couple of matches. I killed 2-3 clan mechs (+an IS or two) in each match, with very low damage. I agree, you can obtain a ton of damage in a Clan mech, but I seem to be more efficient in IS.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Madadh, on 21 July 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Have to agree, the Stormcrow is delicious. It's so good I'd change my allegiance to my prefered clan (Goliath Scorpion) if it was available. The speed combined with the superior range of Clan tech weaponry is just brutal. I've only gotten a little over a dozen games in but the results have been staggeringly good.

In general the Stormcrow is very good however, I have had a few 80-150 damage matches in it to offset those I have had at 700 damage. It had good hit boxes but it is still a medium and your CT will get caved in if your not careful.

The strange thing about the Stormcrow is that is is very similar to the Quickdraw (minus JJs of course) and the Kintaro which are two unpopular IS mechs. I run Quickdraws and used to run a KTO-20 and both use almost exactly the same loadouts as I do on my Stormcrows. Obviously the Stormcrow has superior range on the lasers but aside from that I don't see a serious advantage to the Stormcrow. My QDs runs 98 kph which is a little slower but has JJs giving it better mobility. Weapons load out is near identical with one of my QDs giving up 2 tubes of SRM and another giving up a single ML. The KTO gave up Artemis but otherwise had identical firepower and the same exact speed as the Stormcrow. All end up with similar armor values and heat efficiency (1% advantage to Stormcrow) and I could pull similar damage and kill numbers as well with all three mechs myself.

Stormcrow has the advantage of range over both obviously, well as far as with Lasers anyway, but IS has the faster burn on their lasers making them a bit easier to concentrate damage with less exposure. Stormcrow has excellent hitboxes but the QD has very good hit boxes as well, though it is larger. KTO is a little weaker in the CT Hitbox. Also IS mechs are a tad bit more vulnerable to kills from the XL engine differences.

Anyway, I just find it odd that everyone just loves the Stormcrow (including me) and does so well with them but absolutely loathes (not me) the QDs and KTOs when they are, in reality, so very similar. I guess the range advantage must make all the difference to alot of people.

[Ultimax]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Obviously the Stormcrow has superior range on the lasers but aside from that I don't see a serious advantage to the Stormcrow.

It's a combination of little things that add up to a lot.

Clan XL
Clan ER MLAS
Clan ultra lightweight missle launchers (this is huge)
Excellent hard point locations (torso mounts are perfect for sniping)
can do energy build with 20 or more DHS

[Tiberius Augustus]

you should have included a scripted match with the data you have to make it deadliest warrior style simulation scenario.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ultimatum X, on 22 July 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

It's a combination of little things that add up to a lot.

Clan XL
Clan ER MLAS
Clan ultra lightweight missle launchers (this is huge)
Excellent hard point locations (torso mounts are perfect for sniping)
can do energy build with 20 or more DHS

Clan XL - 10% advantage since most most IS mech kills come from a CT kill. Also don't often lose my side Torsos on the Stormcrow.

Clan ER-ML - Great range advantage but 30% greater burn time, hotter and slower re-fire again thanks to that 30% great burn time. Advantage at range but disadvantage under 300m.

Clan Ultralight Weight launchers - you still only get 3 missile hard points unless you devote the arms to missiles. Fixed crits i the Stormcrow also have more limitations on build than IS mechs.

Excellent Hardpoint location - All the hardpoints except the torso launched missiles are located very low in the torso. Not excellent for sniping because by peeking over things, you expose 50% of your mech to enemy fire, before you can even see over the hill or whatever.

Can do an energy build with 20 or more DHS - Again typically hotter weapons. IS Standard LL, ML and PPC are much cooler than Clan ER versions offsetting any difference in DHS amount. Clan gain range advantage but once IS weapons reach effective range, they are typically superior with faster re-firing rates, shorter burn times, etc.

So that gives the Stormcrow two non-situational advantages. Laser range and less vulnerability to death by XL. These are definitely advantages but when you consider I was comparing the Stormcrow to two of what people consider the worst IS designs, well yeah obviously the Stormcrow is better. However what I found ironic is that when you really analyze things down, they just aren't that much better than the QD and KTO.

Honestly I think alot of it is simply people think they are better so they end up being better. I mean if you go into a match with the mindset your piloting a gimped mech that is designed to fail like most people do with the KTO or QD (I never thought that way and the QD was a top performer for me, breaking a 2.0 K/D rate), chances are your going to do poorly. However with the Stormcrow, the mindset it is Clan tech and OPed (whether it is or not) and all that comes to the fore, so you just know its going to do great when you enter into a match.

Confidence, after all, makes a huge amount of difference in how well you play so I think some of their performance (and other clan mechs) come straight from the human psychology perspective.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 22 July 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

@Kiiyor - I'm working on the rules for an upcoming player-created league, and trying to predict the casualty rate for a series of matches ... completely understanding that your data set may not be representative, it could give me a starting point.

Can you break out the number of matches with a certain number of kills for me ...

For example:
23 kills: 5 matches
22 kills: 8 matches
21 kills: 23 matches
et cetera ...

I sincerely appreciate the insight your work so far has provided us, and hesitate to ask, but being a casual spreadsheet warrior myself, imagine that the data I'm looking for is at your fingertips.

[Roland]

Victor, you dramatically underestimate the value of the clan xl engine, seemingly due to you not really using your mech to soak damage.

Your statement that most IS mechs die to ct shots is simply false. Maybe that's how you die, and certainly with an inner sphere xl soaking is less possible, but when you die with armor intact on your sides, that means you screwed up.

I virtually NEVER die in my ryoken without losing at least one side, and when I don't lose a side first, it's because I derped it up.

Of you know how to soak damage properly, the clan xl engine is easily the single largest benefit the clans have.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Roland, on 22 July 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

Victor, you dramatically underestimate the value of the clan xl engine, seemingly due to you not really using your mech to soak damage.

Your statement that most IS mechs die to ct shots is simply false. Maybe that's how you die, and certainly with an inner sphere xl soaking is less possible, but when you die with armor intact on your sides, that means you screwed up.

I virtually NEVER die in my ryoken without losing at least one side, and when I don't lose a side first, it's because I derped it up.

Of you know how to soak damage properly, the clan xl engine is easily the single largest benefit the clans have.

I am not going to deny it is an advantage. Hell there is even a huge psychological advantage to knowing that you can't get killed even when the side torso gets totally mangled. This goes back to that confidence I talked about. Knowing I can't get killed by that side torso shot means I play more aggressive and assertive which means my performance is likely to go up as well.

However, side torso kills on IS mechs just aren't all that common. Sure it happens, for me maybe once in every 10 deaths or so which is why I guesstimate about a 10% advantage. Most often though my CT gets blow out. Part of this is because on an IS mech, it is a 50/50 crap shoot on if taking out a side torso will kill it or not. I can't count the times I have wasted all my fire on a IS side torso going for an easy kill only to find out he was running a standard. All the while I am doing this he is coring out my CT so by the time I shift back to his CT, I am at a massive disadvantage. Didn't take long for me to realize that even with the IS XL vulnerability, it was always a safer bet to go for the CT. Now most of my Side Torso kills are by accident rather than design and I think there are alot of people that learned this lesson as well. Of course on an IS mech, mileage with an XL will vary greatly depending on the design but mechs like the Quickdraw, Kintaro, Dragon, Battlemaster and many others have tiny side torso hit boxes and almost never take any real concentrated damage there.

As to why I don't lose alot of Side Torsos on my Stormcrow, well I attribute that to the simple fact that people know that you can't kill a clan mech by taking out the side torso so they have a tendency to always go for center mass or leg shots when fighting against them. Sure I take damage on my side torsos and they often end up mangled but this is by accident, not because the enemy is aiming there.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 22 July 2014 - 06:49 PM.

[pulupulu]

After like 1 week, I only manage to get 1 no (c) & no 0 dmg match... I think I will just post it here. I was hoping to get like 10 or something (and e-mail a pack)... but i just dont play enough i guess?

Edited by pulupulu, 22 July 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[Roland]

Sorry man, but when I run a standard engine in an is mech, I never die without loading at least one side torso, if not both.

You apparently don't use your side torsos to soak damage.. But that is because you aren't using the full capability of your mechs.

Like I said, I pretty much always lose at least one side before I go down in my clan mechs, because being able to lose my side means I can just deny them a short on my ct.

[Koniving]

<--Is in 4 (technically 5) of the images. o.O;
Commando cockpit (motion blur complaint about missiles). (Btw, love the hands added in).
Dire Wolf firing (blue one)
(Was in the background of the Centurion fight)
AC/20 Raven 4X.
Firebrand

Lordred's Perfect Screenshot thread.

Edited by Koniving, 22 July 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 22 July 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

@Kiiyor - I'm working on the rules for an upcoming player-created league, and trying to predict the casualty rate for a series of matches ... completely understanding that your data set may not be representative, it could give me a starting point.

Can you break out the number of matches with a certain number of kills for me ...

For example:
23 kills: 5 matches
22 kills: 8 matches
21 kills: 23 matches
et cetera ...

I sincerely appreciate the insight your work so far has provided us, and hesitate to ask, but being a casual spreadsheet warrior myself, imagine that the data I'm looking for is at your fingertips.

Something like this?



I had just those stats to go into the new analysis, but yours sounds more inclusive. Time to unleash the awesome power of STACKED BAR CHARTS. Or just normal bar charts. Or a PIE chart, If i want any data analysts to letter bomb me.

[Adiuvo]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

snip

Dude... really, if you aren't losing STs consistently in IS mechs and you're not in an Awesome, it's because you're just staring back at your enemies instead of shielding. Really.