513 replies to this topic

[Turboferret]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

snip

Yeah, PGI isn't reading this, on the other hand I'm (and all of us are) forced to put up with this w[h]ine getting bumped up to the top of General so actually meaningful conversations get pushed down nonstop.

Accept your glorious fate. Uninstall.

[Atheus]

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

...we are in a P2W situation.Not of the sort you’re hoping to hoodwink the player base into believing – that is, that unless you buy Clan ‘Mechs, and more specifically Timber Wolves, you’ll never win a match of MWO again

Seriously... enough with the pathetic straw mans. I see this crap and I can't even be bothered to read what else you had to say.

[Tesunie]

Clan mechs: Pay to get early. They will be released for C-bills before too long. Thus, not P2W.

So, no. Clans are not Pay to win.

(Heroes, I have no opinion on. I don't find them any scarier on the battlefield when I face them compared to another c-bill version of the same kind of mech. So I don't believe they are P2W, but this is opinion, so....)

[Atheus]

Tesunie, on 25 June 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Clan mechs: Pay to get early. They will be released for C-bills before too long. Thus, not P2W.

So, no. Clans are not Pay to win.

(Heroes, I have no opinion on. I don't find them any scarier on the battlefield when I face them compared to another c-bill version of the same kind of mech. So I don't believe they are P2W, but this is opinion, so....)

I hear World of Tanks gold ammo is scheduled to be released for the free currency sometime in 2043, so by your definition it's not pay to win either.

[Atheus]

Azrael1911, on 25 June 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Yeah, PGI isn't reading this, on the other hand I'm (and all of us are) forced to put up with this w[h]ine getting bumped up to the top of General so actually meaningful conversations get pushed down nonstop.

Accept your glorious fate. Uninstall.

Yep, lack of comprehension guy. I didn't start this thread for the benefit of PGI either, as I've explained numerous times. This thread is purely for the benefit of players who have been Jedi mind tricked into thinking MWO isn't P2W.

[1453 R]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Yep, lack of comprehension guy. I didn't start this thread for the benefit of PGI either, as I've explained numerous times. This thread is purely for the benefit of players who have been Jedi mind tricked into thinking MWO isn't P2W.

...so that we can all feel bad that we bought Clan packs, or alternatively feel vindicated in calling Invasion holders dirty names.

Seriously, Atheus. I've asked you over and over and over. WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO ABOUT IT. What's your solution, what's your proposal for change? Where's the "here's how we fix this"? I have not seen ONE in this entire thread! Only a stubborn determination to make absolutely sure that Invasion pack holders know that they have, in fact, bought into a P2W scheme and they shouldn'a done that!

[RussianWolf]

Going all the way back to the Title of the thread, OP claims to have proof. But he has only provided cercumstantial evidence, not proof.

Still waiting on proof that

1) Hero Mechs are BETTER than cbill versions
2) Clan mechs are BETTER than cbill IS mechs
3) Clan weapons are BETTER than IS weapons.

The problem is that those three things can not be proven. Any claimed proof will in fact be opinion, not factual and therefore can't be called proof.

Edited by RussianWolf, 25 June 2014 - 05:48 PM.

[Tesunie]

Also, though I want to try the clan tech out, I have not been feeling any "weakness" or "underpowered performance" from my IS mechs since the clan release. They have been a different flavor, but I have not been seeing them as any more powerful than the IS mechs I have been piloting.

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

I hear World of Tanks gold ammo is scheduled to be released for the free currency sometime in 2043, so by your definition it's not pay to win either.

You, good sir, are throwing out a random, and error riddled, example. There is a difference between an early access (less than years, about six months, with some clan mechs being available as early as next month, which is the Uller which is a nice mech) and your exaggerated example of 29 years time span. 1-6 months (mech chassis dependent) compared to 29 years is by far a large gap for any kind of comparison. One you will see in the life of the game, and probably within your life time (provided you don't die in the next 6 months). The other will probably not happen by the time the game closes, and/or the players would have aged/died before hand.

Also, I don't play WoT, so I don't know what Gold Ammo does. In MWO, Clan mechs don't provide nearly as large an advantage you seem to suspect. Their advantage increases with the skill of the pilot, just as IS mechs increase with pilot skill. If you can keep a solid bead on your target, Clan mechs become more rewarding. (Actaully, as far as weapon mechanics, IS weapons tend to be more powerful than their clan counter parts, because they tend to deal more damage to a single location, run cooler, among other benefits. Example: C AC vs IS AC. The Clan AC shoots it's damage in several shots. The CAC5 deals it's damage in three shots, the total of the three shots totaling to 5 damage. The ISAC5 on the other hand, shoots a single slug that deals 5 damage. This means that the clan AC is more likely to spread it's damage, where as the IS AC will deal it's damage to a single location.)


So far, the clan release schedule seems rather reasonable to me. two mechs being released per month, pushing out twelve mechs within six months isn't that bad. Till then, let the people who preordered the mechs have their fun. I know I don't envy them any, and I'm still taking down clan mechs with my good old mechs. Actually... I've been doing it in a stock Hunchback 4J, and I am not joking. If I can do that in a stock IS mech... I'd have to classify clan mechs as NOT OP...

[Zervziel]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Yep, lack of comprehension guy. I didn't start this thread for the benefit of PGI either, as I've explained numerous times. This thread is purely for the benefit of players who have been Jedi mind tricked into thinking MWO isn't P2W.

So basically you basically came here to force you opinion on to everyone else while blithely plugging your own ears when others try to get a word in.

[Atheus]

RussianWolf, on 25 June 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Going all the way back to the Title of the htread, OP claims to have proof. But he has only provided cercumstantial evidence, not proof.

Still waiting on proof that

1) Hero Mechs are BETTER than cbill versions
2) Clam mechs are BETTER than cbill IS mechs
3) Clan weapons are BETTER than IS weapons.

The problem is that those three things can not be proven. Any claimed proof will in fact be opinion, not factual and therefore can't be called proof.

I don't have to individually prove any of those points. It isn't that all hero mechs are pay to win, it's that they have the potential to become pay to win, and it turns out, that has happened in several observable instances.

What is your standard of evidence? At what point, for example, can we say that we have sufficient evidence to theorize that the VTR-DS is better than the VRT-9S or the HGN-733C? Since they all have variables that shift in different directions, each with different importance, you can't nail it down with hard math, but you can come up with a pretty good guess based on the data. If you can't accept that the mech selection in the competitive scene is good evidence to support the claim that the VTR-DS is advantageous, then regrettably your standard of evidence is beyond my attention span.

As to clans, as I stated you do have to accept another easy to believe assumption, which is that certain players have been able to improve their ability to kill/win using clan mechs. Kiiyor posted an awesome thread where he sifted through 100 matches of data and showed it off. I would find it hard to propose that nobody in that data set was having an easier time killing and winning with clan mechs. At the very least they were having no problems boosting their total damage dealt by 50% over the IS crowd.

[Noth]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

I hear World of Tanks gold ammo is scheduled to be released for the free currency sometime in 2043, so by your definition it's not pay to win either.

You do know that in WoT, you do not need to spend real money to get gold ammo right?

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I don't have to individually prove any of those points. It isn't that all hero mechs are pay to win, it's that they have the potential to become pay to win, and it turns out, that has happened in several observable instances.

What is your standard of evidence? At what point, for example, can we say that we have sufficient evidence to theorize that the VTR-DS is better than the VRT-9S or the HGN-733C? Since they all have variables that shift in different directions, each with different importance, you can't nail it down with hard math, but you can come up with a pretty good guess based on the data. If you can't accept that the mech selection in the competitive scene is good evidence to support the claim that the VTR-DS is advantageous, then regrettably your standard of evidence is beyond my attention span.

As to clans, as I stated you do have to accept another easy to believe assumption, which is that certain players have been able to improve their ability to kill/win using clan mechs. Kiiyor posted an awesome thread where he sifted through 100 matches of data and showed it off. I would find it hard to propose that nobody in that data set was having an easier time killing and winning with clan mechs. At the very least they were having no problems boosting their total damage dealt by 50% over the IS crowd.

You should wait till the newness wears off of the clan mechs. There are so many clan mechs out that the TTK has risen thanks to less pinpoint damage. Clan mechs simply cannot kill as efficiently as IS mechs.

Edited by Noth, 25 June 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

A Dragon Slayer Victor is very similar in hard points to the VTR-9S, but in a competition setting you'll see almost exclusively DS variants. The reasons are obvious to anyone familiar with the chassis. They're amazingly good pop-tarts, and pop-tarts win competitions. But the reason they choose the DS over the 9S is because of the different positioning of the ballistic hard points. The pilots understand that having the weapons all on the right side is an advantage,

It is not so much that all are on the right side as it is that there are shoulder mounted ppc's thus reducing the amount of jump needed to fire over cover and reduce the amount of mech that is exposed to return fire as well.
A massive advantage over all the other Victor variants by leaps and bounds most definitely.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 25 June 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[Atheus]

Noth, on 25 June 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

You do know that in WoT, you do not need to spend real money to get gold ammo right?

Lol no I didn't know that. I don't play WoT. BUT if you did have to spend real money, then that would be the point I was trying to make.

Noth, on 25 June 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

You should wait till the newness wears off of the clan mechs. There are so many clan mechs out that the TTK has risen thanks to less pinpoint damage. Clan mechs simply cannot kill as efficiently as IS mechs.

I'm not making my argument based on the analysis of match data, though I do expect the data to bear me out. I'm guessing that it's only going to get worse in the month of July, but that's just my weather forecast.

[Atheus]

xMEPHISTOx, on 25 June 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

It is not so much that all are on the right side as it is that there are shoulder mounted ppc's thus reducing the amount of jump needed to fire over cover and reduce the amount of mech that is exposed to return fire as well.
A massive advantage over all the other Victor variants by leaps and bounds most definitely.

I don't think the story stops there, either, but the specifics don't wind up being all that important for the sake of this argument. People know the DS is an ace.

[Triordinant]

cSand, on 24 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Hey, here's a newsflash

Pay some cash if you want the new shinies right away

IF you don't wanna pay, that's fine, but make sure you STFU and wait while the rest of who bankroll your f**king experience get rewarded (rightly so) for it

<<< Troll Detected >>>

[RussianWolf]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I don't have to individually prove any of those points. It isn't that all hero mechs are pay to win, it's that they have the potential to become pay to win, and it turns out, that has happened in several observable instances.

You claim to have proof, but you don't have to prove that you have proof????? okay.

Quote

What is your standard of evidence? At what point, for example, can we say that we have sufficient evidence to theorize that the VTR-DS is better than the VRT-9S or the HGN-733C? Since they all have variables that shift in different directions, each with different importance, you can't nail it down with hard math, but you can come up with a pretty good guess based on the data. If you can't accept that the mech selection in the competitive scene is good evidence to support the claim that the VTR-DS is advantageous, then regrettably your standard of evidence is beyond my attention span.

So you can't prove it, and If I don't accept your circumstantial evidence then you don't want to play??? Okay. The Competitive Scene's opinions on what is better and their use of the DS didn't prevent all but one of those teams from dying and losing.

Quote

As to clans, as I stated you do have to accept another easy to believe assumption, which is that certain players have been able to improve their ability to kill/win using clan mechs. Kiiyor posted an awesome thread where he sifted through 100 matches of data and showed it off. I would find it hard to propose that nobody in that data set was having an easier time killing and winning with clan mechs. At the very least they were having no problems boosting their total damage dealt by 50% over the IS crowd.

More circumstantial evidence that some were playing well in clan mechs. Unless you are able to follow idividual players playing in both IS and Clan mechs through a large set of data, it is going to have a large margin of error. I doubt the 100 matches did that and were very circumstantial. What you believe or feel comfortable proposing is irrelevant. That Clan mechs had higher damage scores actually goes against your claim. IS mechs were killing others faster than the Clan mechs which were causing more damage. Pin point vs stream fire over several areas.

Here's more circumstantial evidence that counters your claims. I am a better than average player. I have 130 mechs in my garage and have kills in almost all of them (except some of the clan mechs that I've only played once). I have recently been playing both IS and Clan mechs in their stock configs in almost equal numbers. I have more kills since the 17th in IS mechs than in Clan mechs. My win los stats during that time are about 50/50 in both types. So, what do you make of that.

Even hunted down a Jagermech in my stock commando 1B and killed him before his friends showed up (FupDup witnessed that and suggested DHS )

[Hellcat420]

clan mechs are so op its ridiculous. i havent even had to fire a weapon yet when using one, i just point in the direction of an is mech and the is mech instantly explodes!

[Tesunie]

RussianWolf, on 25 June 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Even hunted down a Jagermech in my stock commando 1B and killed him before his friends showed up (FupDup witnessed that and suggested DHS )

I was all ready to post my Stock 4J stats... but he conveniently never quoted or remarked on my second post...

It's nice to see I'm noy the only one who has been playing mechs in stock form recently. I've been doing the 4J (I'm deadly with it) for SMM, but also been playing it in the public matches. Then, I've also picked up stock Awesomes (I'm alright with them, but better with the Hunchback). All this while "Clan OPness is here!" is happening. And I've been seeing good stats on most matches!

Stock configuration 4J:
27 matches played.
0.77 K/D (more support mech anyway).
Average damage per match: 267.48.
Average damage per match per ton of mech: 5.35.

I find it funny how my SHS stock 4J seems to be blowing holes in his thesis...
(Edit: typos)

Edited by Tesunie, 25 June 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Harmatia]

There are so many problems with this game that any kind of pay-2-win schemes are the least of my concern. I'd P2W if any of the grand designs for this game actually materialized. Not even alpha, like, something that barely works but is proof of concept. Last I read, phase 1 of Community Warfare (mercenary corporations, or guilds) has "begun" development as a result of Clan deployment. So 8 months after phase 1 of CW was announced it's actually begun development? Jesus ******* Christ. Pay-to-fail.

[Atheus]

Tesunie, on 25 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I was all ready to post my Stock 4J stats... but he conveniently never quoted or remarked on my second post...

It's nice to see I'm noy the only one who has been playing mechs in stock form recently. I've been doing the 4J (I'm deadly with it) for SMM, but also been playing it in the public matches. Then, I've also picked up stock Awesomes (I'm alright with them, but better with the Hunchback). All this while "Clan OPness is here!" is happening. And I've been seeing good stats on most matches!

Stock configuration 4J:
27 matches played.
0.77 K/D (more support mech anyway).
Average damage per match: 267.48.
Average damage per match per ton of mech: 5.35.

I find it funny how my SHS stock 4J seems to be blowing holes in his thesis...
(Edit: typos)

I find it a little funny that you think those stats are blowing holes in my thesis. How are they even relevant?