513 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

I haven't claimed firsthand experience this whole time, yet suddenly now it's a problem? All I've done is laid a logical framework for determining whether Clan is P2W. You can fill in the blank with your own experience. Personally, I filled in the blank with my analysis of the raw data on Clan weapons and mechs - seeing how they directly improve on some of my favorite builds. That one assumption that I made - because I don't have the data to definitively prove the answer - that certain players can improve their ability to win/kill by upgrading to Clan mechs. That's an assumption that completes the puzzle. I can't decide for anyone what is an appropriate amount of data to verify that assumption, but you can decide for yourself. If you want to plug in the data in this thread then you've got a pretty good picture that it's quite believable that Clan tech is working out really well for a lot of players. If that data is not sufficient for you, then figure it out yourself. My concern was is that plenty of players were going to realize Clan tech was better for them or for other people, then double-think their way out of realizing that that means that Clan tech is a cash-only advantage.

You are only using "raw data" and therefore only half assing it. Raw data is well and nice but until you cop a dire wolf prime. Slap a 2 erppc and 2 gauss meta build in it and drive this supposedly "OP" mech with its "OP meta build" in a pug game....and get wrecked by a jenner because you only go 48kph and your team left you behind to die for 3 matches in a row THEN you can come on here and talk to ME about pay 2 win.

You know what I drive the most out my clan mechs? This. Know why I wreck face in it? because i drove THIS for months and months before clan mechs dropped. I have something called EXPERIENCE with that build and therefore knew how that warhawk was going to perform before it even got here. Tell me what exactly is pay to win about this again? I can wreck dam near as hard in that Awesome as I can in my Warhawk. But if we went by just "raw data" instead of actual experience in said mechs both of those builds should be complete shat and i should only be driving my pay to win metabuild direwolf correct?

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Clan 'Mechs could be play to win...if I didn't witness dozens of them get wrecked by intelligent IS players.

Lot of good that clan tech does when you get baited into a firing line of Jagers, Orions, and Thunderbutts.

If you actually paid any attention you'd notice that several Clan mechs have some glaring flaws that are easy to take advantage of. Like my Timber Wolf that I play damn near religiously; its CT is such a massive target (like the Dire Wolf) its hilarious.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 25 June 2014 - 09:58 PM.

[Atheus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Pay to win would mean paying real money for something in game that is ONLY available for real money (micro transactions) that offer you some unfair advantage in game that non paying players cannot attain.

Clan mechs are pay for EARLY ACCESS. they will be available in all way shapes and form later in the game.

"pay for early access" to things that are pay to win are pay to win until the early access period is over. You've slipped into another useless definition of pay to win. It's a common mistake. You're probably the 10th person or so in this thread to make it.

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

and for the most part are not THAT much better than is counterparts.

...so you admit here that in your estimation some are a little better, yet can't accept that they are probably P2W. I guess that's why you want to specify that because they'll eventually be available for C-Bills disqualify them from being P2W.

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Yeah that Dire wolf packs some nasty firepower. it is one of, if not THE most well armed mechs in the lore. But it can get its ass handed to it by a jenner pilot with 2 braincells.

Right... but we generally don't compare Assaults to Lights.

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Hero mechs? As I explained earlier. the Dragon slayer is NOT the best poptart victor. the best poptart is the 9B, as all your weapons are mounted in the arms, and therefore easier to aim as all the weapons will converge on a single point. The Dragon slayer has to aim its torso ppcs AND its arm cannons to hit a single section. While it is accurate it is not AS accurate as the 9B. its only advantage is that you can "give" your empty energy arm for people to shoot at to avoid losing your weapons.

Everyone in tournament play disagrees with you. For their purposes the DS is invariably the best option. Refer to Page 3.

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

The Misery? Simply a ballistic alternative to the other stalkers..Yes it can pack some nice brawler configs but it can also lose that ac20 in a hell of a hurry and it cannot missile boat like the other stalkers can. it is simply an alternative version tarted up to be a hero mech.

The Boars head? Please. Half your effective weapons mounted in your arms, most boars head builds are brawler configs...guess what part of your mech you use to soak up damage first? THATS RIGHT KIDS! your arms....kinda sucks to lose those doesnt it? The only hero mech I would consider remotely superior than the Cbill variants is the Muromets. So if you are saying the muromets is pay to win then hey no arguments from me, that thing is/was FUN. xl 300 with triple ua5 spam? yes please! But it still could get dropped like a ton of bricks, very quickly.

Anything a Heavy metal can do, a 733 can do better, or with an AC20...

So tell me where is my pay to win? I like winning, so i wanna throw money at it!

The Hero mechs are a mixed bag. I don't really feel like debating each and every one, but suffice it to say that when someone is able to derive some sort of an advantage from picking a hero mech, they're paying for an advantage.

[KuroNyra]

Triskelion, on 25 June 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

Personal attacks aren't really needed. This is surprisingly civilized, which is the only reason I've bothered posting. It's pretty cool actually.

You have to admitt at least something about him.

His thread are actually very active...

But not in a good way.

[headbasher]

Clan mechs aside if tournaments are being majority filled with hero mechs that is the very definition of p2w

[xXBagheeraXx]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 25 June 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

Clan 'Mechs could be play to win...if I didn't witness dozens of them get wrecked by intelligent IS players.

Lot of good that clan tech does when you get baited into a firing line of Jagers, Orions, and Thunderbutts.

If you actually paid any attention you'd notice that several Clan mechs have some glaring flaws that are easy to take advantage of. Like my Timber Wolf that I play damn near religiously; its CT is such a massive target (like the Dire Wolf) its hilarious.

Yup...I had a really nice drop in my Victor today and smoked about 3 clan mechs without even getting my armor in the red.

and before you say it NO its not a meta victor.

[Atheus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

You are only using "raw data" and therefore only half assing it. Raw data is well and nice but until you cop a dire wolf prime. Slap a 2 erppc and 2 gauss meta build in it and drive this supposedly "OP" mech with its "OP meta build" in a pug game....and get wrecked by a jenner because you only go 48kph and your team left you behind to die for 3 matches in a row THEN you can come on here and talk to ME about pay 2 win.

The data is actually compiled into easy to interpret tables, making it not raw data. How much more do you want your data cooked before you can interpret it? All you can really criticize is the sample size and single player's vantage point. Like i said, though, you don't have to accept that data. But what you've basically said is that I shouldn't use data collected from many matches, I should use some crappy anecdotal data from your match where you took your Dire Wolf which is obviously not even elited much less mastered, and got ditched by your team then died uselessly. I think I'll stick with better sources than that, like Smurfy.

What's the problem, by the way? You already managed to spit out that you think clan mechs are a little better. Just take the next little step and recognize what that means.

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

You know what I drive the most out my clan mechs? This. Know why I wreck face in it? because i drove THIS for months and months before clan mechs dropped. I have something called EXPERIENCE with that build and therefore knew how that warhawk was going to perform before it even got here. Tell me what exactly is pay to win about this again? I can wreck dam near as hard in that Awesome as I can in my Warhawk. But if we went by just "raw data" instead of actual experience in said mechs both of those builds should be complete shat and i should only be driving my pay to win metabuild direwolf correct?

I didn't even read this part when I wrote the first part of this response, but wow. Here you're plain as day describing how you're doing better in your Clan mechs than you do in your IS mechs, but you're trying to attribute it to some special skills you have that probably no other player in the world has, which is total BS. This is exactly the kind of double-think that I'm trying to give people the right perspective to escape from. You have Clan mechs that are performing better for you than your IS mechs. Just make the connection.

Edited by Atheus, 25 June 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[N0MAD]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 25 June 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

Clan 'Mechs could be play to win...if I didn't witness dozens of them get wrecked by intelligent IS players.

Gold Ammo was widely accepted as P2W, yet many, many guys not using it were able to kill players using it, by your reasoning Gold Ammo was never P2W.

[xXBagheeraXx]

KuroNyra, on 25 June 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

You have to admitt at least something about him.

His thread are actually very active...

But not in a good way.

Yeah after reading his last response im pretty sure im talking to a brick wall...a brick wall that seems to only hear "DERP DERP DERP DERP when you bring up valid points and shoot down in flames his entire argument....im gonna go play my other "pay to win" game World of tanks with my "pay to win" T57 heavy and lose a few 5k damage games in a row...cause that tank is totally op meta pay to win...hurr durrrr....

All i will say is raw data != actual in game experiences. The reason why i compared a dire wolf to a jenner? I dont fear Jenners in my Victor...dont fear them very much in my Atlas even...I crap A BRICK when i see one coming in my direwolf. Because he can kick my ass, and there isnt a thing i can do about it. Therein lies gameplay balance, and when something is BALANCED it is not "pay to win"

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 25 June 2014 - 10:15 PM.

[Turboferret]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Yeah after reading his last response im pretty sure im talking to a brick wall...a brick wall that seems to only hear "DERP DERP DERP DERP when you bring up valid points and shoot down in flames his entire argument....im gonna go play my other "pay to win" game World of tanks with my "pay to win" T57 heavy and lose a few 5k damage games in a row...cause that tank is totally op meta pay to win...hurr durrrr....

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Yeah after reading his last response im pretty sure im talking to a brick wall...a brick wall that seems to only hear "DERP DERP DERP DERP when you bring up valid points and shoot down in flames his entire argument....im gonna go play my other "pay to win" game World of tanks with my "pay to win" T57 heavy and lose a few 5k damage games in a row...cause that tank is totally op meta pay to win...hurr durrrr....

It's simple really. He clearly thinks this game is bad now because it's "P2W."

So we should all tell him by getting him to uninstall so he doesn't have to play this mess.

[Atheus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Yeah after reading his last response im pretty sure im talking to a brick wall...a brick wall that seems to only hear "DERP DERP DERP DERP when you bring up valid points and shoot down in flames his entire argument....im gonna go play my other "pay to win" game World of tanks with my "pay to win" T57 heavy and lose a few 5k damage games in a row...cause that tank is totally op meta pay to win...hurr durrrr....

All i will say is raw data != actual in game experiences. The reason why i compared a dire wolf to a jenner? I dont fear Jenners in my Victor...dont fear them very much in my Atlas even...I crap A BRICK when i see one coming in my direwolf. Because he can kick my ass, and there isnt a thing i can do about it. Therein lies gameplay balance, and when something is BALANCED it is not "pay to win"

DERP DERP DERP is about right when you basically tell me that all this time you've been sitting on clan mechs you think outperform their IS counterparts, then proceed to insist that it isn't pay to win and rail at me like I'm some sort of zealot whack job for suggesting they probably are. Reread my last response to you if you didn't already. I edited it to address your second paragraph.

Edited by Atheus, 25 June 2014 - 10:43 PM.

[headbasher]

xXBagheeraXx,

Your arguments need some work.

Let me be clear I dont know what "Data" you all are talking about , but I do know thats what games are balanced by . Not sure how you can say "well you cant go by the data" with a straight face.

Also wtf P2W T57?????????? I have played 1000's of wot matches and I just cant connect t57 p2w with clan mechs. Or T57 even being p2w in the first place

Edited by headbasher, 25 June 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Yes is said clan mechs are SLIGHTLY better than some of thier inner sphere counterparts. In some ways they are SUPPOSED to be. You do realise that in the lore the clans absolutely decimated inner sphere mechs and pilots correct? Yeah my warhawk is a slightly better energy boating platform than the awesome...yeah a Madcat can eat a catapult k2 for lunch. The IS mechs of this time period.

But as far as missile boating? Ill take my Catapult over a madcat any day.

Fast brawler Assault mech? Ill take a victor over a warhawk any day.

The simple fact that i said that clan mechs are only "SLIGHTLY" superior (and only in some ways) than IS mechs speaks volumes. At the time the clans invaded these things should poop on any mech in their weight class, but that is NOT the case. I seriously cannot wait till you get one of these "pay 2 win OP" mechs of your own and you fail miserably. I will be there to collect your tears with a great big "TOLDJA SO" poster ready and waiting.

headbasher, on 25 June 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

xXBagheeraXx,

Your arguments need some work.

Let me be clear I dont know what "Data" you all are talking about , but I do know thats what games are balanced by . Not sure how you can say "well you cant go by the data" with a straight face.

Also wtf P2W T57?????????? I have played 1000's of wot matches and I just cant connect t57 p2w with clan mechs. Or T57 even being p2w in the first place

Because when that tank dropped everyone b!atched about it being op and pay to win because people spent gold to free xp to it. I did the same....I do 3times the damage of half my team and lose most of the time. Hardly pay to win, but the arguments in the forums about it say otherwise. I simply said it because its another example of whiney little ******* like the op complaining about something being pay to win without having actually driven the tank (or mech) in question and realizing how full of crap its detractors are.

You want any credit op. DRIVE IT. Until then you are blowing smoke and hot air. Until you see how sluggish the dire wolf is, how hot running the warhawk is. How relatively under armed the madcat and DEFINITLY the Thor is, how fragile the storm crow and nova are and how slow and inflexible the kit fox and Puma are Your whole "pay to win" argument means NOTHING.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 25 June 2014 - 10:51 PM.

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

I'd really like to see anyone actually refute any of the original posts. If, in fact, any of the posters here read them.

I mostly see personal attacks on the OP. This is a logical fallacy, called an ad hominem.
Remember guys, address the argument, don't attack the person.
I've only read 4-5 pages and I haven't seen anyone actually properly address any of his points.

In fact, most of the responses I see have been already addressed in the original post, which infers they have not actually read it or are simply arguing otherwise without any proof.

Here's the most common responses, along with a quote from the OP that ALREADY addressed it.

"It's not pay-to-win, it's pay to early access"

Quote

Providing a date at which a pay-to-win item will be available for in-game currency does not change the pay-to-win nature of said item in the present.

"It's all about being a good player"

Quote

I'd like to point out that it does not matter whether this hypothetical player is highly skilled, or modestly skilled.The question is whether Clan tech will improve their ability to kill enemies and/or win matches. If they can build a mech that is better suited to killing/winning using their play style with Clan tech than they can build using IS tech, they serve as living proof that Clan tech can indeed provide an advantage to certain players that currently can not be acquired with C-Bills.

"Clan mechs are supposed to be stronger, in fact they're nerfed from what they should be"
This has nothing to do with the argument. Making them stronger AND keeping them to only "paying" customers would only increase the cries of p2w.

"I died in a Dire Wolf once, so it's not P2W" "I do more damage in my IS mechs" "In one game, only IS mechs were left standing at the end"
Not only does this not address the original argument (see the quote above), but using personal experience and isolated examples as "proof" seems dubious at best. I sometimes see screenshots of Dragons that do 1100+ damage. Based on one screenshot, I could argue the Dragon is the best heavy.

"I'd like to downvote this **** for making another P2W thread"
Whilst I can somewhat sympathize with this, if you had the energy to post, you might as well respond to his argument. If you "don't care" then stay out of the thread and don't keep it top of the forums.

"Buy a clan mech or STFU. We who pay for the game shouldn't listen to the whining of freeloaders"
Personally, I think this seems a bit insulting to a founder. Also, it has nothing to do with the original argument.

He has not attacked people for using clan mechs. Most clan mech players would be using them as they love the clan mechs and lore, not to "win." However it does not change the nature of the current situation. (Which has always existed with heroes like the DS and to a lesser extent mechs like the Ember, Misery and Illya, but is especially highlighted with the clans)

All the OP is pointing out is
#1. PGI is sneakily using a P2W model
#2. people are in denial that it is P2W

So far I haven't seen any coherent or logical rebuttals.

Edited by Dunning Kruger Effect, 25 June 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Atheus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

Yes is said clan mechs are SLIGHTLY better than some of thier inner sphere counterparts. In some ways they are SUPPOSED to be. You do realise that in the lore the clans absolutely decimated inner sphere mechs and pilots correct? Yeah my warhawk is a slightly better energy boating platform than the awesome...yeah a Madcat can eat a catapult k2 for lunch. The IS mechs of this time period.

But as far as missile boating? Ill take my Catapult over a madcat any day.

Fast brawler Assault mech? Ill take a victor over a warhawk any day.

The simple fact that i said that clan mechs are only "SLIGHTLY" superior (and only in some ways) than IS mechs speaks volumes. At the time the clans invaded these things should poop on any mech in their weight class, but that is NOT the case. I seriously cannot wait till you get one of these "pay 2 win OP" mechs of your own and you fail miserably. I will be there to collect your tears with a great big "TOLDJA SO" poster ready and waiting.

Yeesh... Just be honest with yourself, man. You're almost there. Listen to yourself. You're now saying that it's fine because Clan is supposed to be stronger, like that will somehow reduce the fact that them being stronger at all involves pay to win.

[N0MAD]

An imaginary game, GWO.
Devs release an item/content that is only available for $ for 6 months.
This item is a Sword, normal swords in game do 25 damage, this Sword does 15 damage but has say +5 energy.
People claim its balanced because it has 5 energy to compensate for the loss of damage.
5 other classes of Characters look at it and say we dont use swords and have no need for extra 5 energy.
Warrior looks at it, na he thinks, Warriors run adrenalin builds, using it has no benefit to him at all just the opposite he is losing damage.
A monk looks at it, he thinks na, my wand does damage and i can use said wand to do damage at long range.
2nd monk looks at it and thinks, hell ya extra 5 mana i can cast more healing skills than monks that dont use it.
How does that relate here.
Simply there are items that can be bought for real money that cant be bought for for ingame currency (currently), the fact that if even a small percent of the population can make use of an item that is behind a paywall is that not P2W? even if it has an expiry date.
So you ask how does a company make money if it cant put things behind a paywall?
Well i could point you to say WT, it releases many Planes that are $ only purchases, the day these are released so are the in game currency equivalent, so what motivates people to buy these $ only planes?
Simple these people dont have to grind hours and hours for them + they have + XP/Money boosts.
Can people claim these $ planes are P2W? nope they are there alongside their ingame currency brothers.
BTW before someone hops in and says WT has P2W planes.. you are 100% correct, there is an XP55, why is it P2W? because you cant buy one for ingame currency.

Edited by N0MAD, 25 June 2014 - 11:03 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 25 June 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

All the OP is pointing out is
#1. PGI is sneakily using a P2W model
#2. people are in denial that it is P2W

So far I haven't seen any coherent or logical rebuttals.

and everyone else is saying

#1 It's not a P2W model
#2 You and the OP are in denial that it's not P2W

then he says "nu-uh!!!" and repeats what he said before.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Azrael1911, on 25 June 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

I would like us all to join hands to rescue Atheus from the P2W horror that is MWO, for his own good.

Please, join me in our chorus.

Atheus, please uninstall.

Atheus please uninstall.

Edited by Keira_NZ, 25 June 2014 - 11:14 PM.

[Kilo 40]

to add to my last comment

The reason it's not pay to win, is because the clan mechs

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 25 June 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

So far I haven't seen any coherent or logical rebuttals.

It all comes down to this...

Quote

The question is whether Clan tech will improve their ability to kill enemies and/or win matches.

The answer to the question is NO.

here endeth the lesson.

[N0MAD]

Kilo 40, on 25 June 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

and everyone else is saying

#1 It's not a P2W model
#2 You and the OP are in denial that it's not P2W

then he says "nu-uh!!!" and repeats what he said before.

Wrong, there are more people saying it than just OP and Dunning.
Therefore your argument is completely wrong, move along.