109 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Smegmw, on 05 July 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Just because I like fantasy to win lets put forth a reality versus fantasy comparison that anyone can agree with.

let's take a low damage balistic weapon designed to be used against humans a 9mm Pistol.

You take a stock human being and shoot it in the center of mass with a 9mm Pistol you have a dead human being in short order.

Lets take a low damage ballistic weapon designed to be used against a battle mech an autocannon/2

You take a stock battle mech and shoot it in the center of mass with an autocannon/2 and it continues to wage war destroying anything it wants to.

Comparing reality to fantasy even in the abstract is senseless and a losing proposition. So we must compare fantasy to fantasy.

Now change those scenarios a little bit so that they are more accurate in comparison. The AC/2 to the center mass of the mech had little effect because the mech has armor, and a 9mm to the center mass of a human kills them because they don't. However, what happens when you give the human body armor and you strip the armor off the battlemech? A similar outcome to yours but in reverse.

Bishop Steiner, on 05 July 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Cool, so lets make them Gundams that fly and skate and have laser swords...... and can do ballet!

Well in the lore they were more Gundam like than they are here. Justin Allard used his jump jets on his Valkyrie and then landed into a combat roll and sprang back onto his mechs feat avoiding fire from Gray Noton's Rifleman. There are other examples of them doing some rather impressive human like/gundam like maneuvers. Oh, and then you have the land air mechs that could fly.

[Bishop Steiner]

WarHippy, on 08 July 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Now change those scenarios a little bit so that they are more accurate in comparison. The AC/2 to the center mass of the mech had little effect because the mech has armor, and a 9mm to the center mass of a human kills them because they don't. However, what happens when you give the human body armor and you strip the armor off the battlemech? A similar outcome to yours but in reverse.
Well in the lore they were more Gundam like than they are here. Justin Allard used his jump jets on his Valkyrie and then landed into a combat roll and sprang back onto his mechs feat avoiding fire from Gray Noton's Rifleman. There are other examples of them doing some rather impressive human like/gundam like maneuvers. Oh, and then you have the land air mechs that could fly.

one word.


Stackpole.

[Kiiyor]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 July 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

As they should be. By comparison Lights have tissue paper for armor. All a Light is meant to have going for it is Speed. They are mostly engine and some small weapons with a thin wash of armor. One hit is all it takes for most to be crippled. Has been for 30 years.

So then why would anyone play them? I can't imagine role warfare offering me any incentive, no matter how awesome or well thought out, that would make me want to pilot a Light if I could never actually fight anything with it.

I love how lights are borderline-viable to fight with in MWO.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kiiyor, on 08 July 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

So then why would anyone play them? I can't imagine role warfare offering me any incentive, no matter how awesome or well thought out, that would make me want to pilot a Light if I could never actually fight anything with it.

I love how lights are borderline-viable to fight with in MWO.

and in a toe to toe slugfest, that is all they should be. Where a good pilot can be david to goliath in a fight. That said, their speed offers a huge bit of tactical flexibility, that the fatties cannot match, the stupid part, is they are nowhere near handsomely rewarded enough for their scouting, NARCing, etc.

Had Cavendish running his Kitfox I think, with NARCs. Allowed me to absolutely rip the OpFor to shreds with my LRM40 TWolf, while also dealing with my MG and quad lasers. Half my damage that match, and at least 3 kills were directly the result of his narcing.

But he gets like 400 xp, and I get 1800.

One of the biggest impediments to this game is a rewards system that basically only rewards straight damage and kills. Most of the other bonuses are laughable, at best.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop said it better than I could have.

[Kiiyor]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 July 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

Bishop said it better than I could have.

And eloquently. The trouble is that NARC'in and Tagging are only of mild usefulness in PUGS, which is where I get my kicks, being a glutton for punishment.

I guess that's why I'm keen for lights to be able to survive a scuffle - fighting is really the only option open for lights in a PUG match.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kiiyor, on 08 July 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

And eloquently. The trouble is that NARC'in and Tagging are only of mild usefulness in PUGS, which is where I get my kicks, being a glutton for punishment.

I guess that's why I'm keen for lights to be able to survive a scuffle - fighting is really the only option open for lights in a PUG match.

Then Lights shouldn't have a place. Its a combat game and in combat Fast light vehicles crumple quickly when hit with heavy weapons. The game was supposed to have a scouting Pillar... But to many players worry only about the kill that actual scouting was removed from PUGs. I don't want to see Lights dancing toe to toe with my Atlas. I do want to see them harrassing me and spotting me for the enemy team to mass fire on me. Not a single IS light Mechs we have right now is a "Combat" Mech. They are Harassers at best. And because we make them have longer sharper fangs, does not change that.

[Kiiyor]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 July 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Then Lights shouldn't have a place. Its a combat game and in combat Fast light vehicles crumple quickly when hit with heavy weapons. The game was supposed to have a scouting Pillar... But to many players worry only about the kill that actual scouting was removed from PUGs. I don't want to see Lights dancing toe to toe with my Atlas. I do want to see them harrassing me and spotting me for the enemy team to mass fire on me. Not a single IS light Mechs we have right now is a "Combat" Mech. They are Harassers at best. And because we make them have longer sharper fangs, does not change that.

I'm of the opposite opinion on the whole Atlas thing. It may not be lore friendly, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Lights are a great answer to the arms race for ponderous, over gunned assaults. That element of caution needs to exist for assault pilots, lest they become the only viable choice for anyone wanting to be even remotely competitive.

It used to be that an Atlas was easy meat to any (even moderately) skilled light pilot, but HSR has seen an end to that. The days of mindlessly circling an Assault are over. Lights need to dance, and dance well to take out mechs at the top of the food chain, but (IMHO) that should never be something regarded as impossible for a skilled Light pilot.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kiiyor, on 08 July 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

I'm of the opposite opinion on the whole Atlas thing. It may not be lore friendly, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Lights are a great answer to the arms race for ponderous, over gunned assaults. That element of caution needs to exist for assault pilots, lest they become the only viable choice for anyone wanting to be even remotely competitive.

It used to be that an Atlas was easy meat to any (even moderately) skilled light pilot, but HSR has seen an end to that. The days of mindlessly circling an Assault are over. Lights need to dance, and dance well to take out mechs at the top of the food chain, but (IMHO) that should never be something regarded as impossible for a skilled Light pilot.

Good. opposing opinions are a good thing. Your point is totally valid too. The Pilot makes the Mech and a very skilled light dancing the scars with an Assault can win... But standing up to it it should not be able to do.

[Kiiyor]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 July 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Good. opposing opinions are a good thing. Your point is totally valid too. The Pilot makes the Mech and a very skilled light dancing the scars with an Assault can win... But standing up to it it should not be able to do.

Oh, I agree completely, and I understand you now. If I ever shut down in a light, I expect to die, and if I somehow complete my restart unscathed, the enemy pilot drops about 40% in my estimation and becomes a foe worthy of derision, not respect. If I screw up a Jump turn and loose my speed, I also expect to be punished. The only time I'm annoyed is if i'm one shot from anything resembling full health whilst at full speed (though props for a good shot), which happens a surprising amount. Man, I HATE MadCats and Slayers, heh.

It's why I don't pilot Spiders. The annoying little ******** can pretty much stand still, using micro accelerations to avoid damage like one of the agents in the matrix. Feels cheap to me. Ravens are hit and miss, mainly because I still remember the white hot loathing I had for them during the lag-fuelled reign of lowtax.