125 replies to this topic

[Shredhead]

Gyrok, on 08 July 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

What trickery is this? If you see a timber wolf with gauss + 2xCERPPC, he is running 2.5T ammo with 2 JJs. All that with 44 leg armor. Keep in mind, it takes 40 or so armor points to gain a ton on the TW too. It was never a great build because of constraints on the chassis. Now it will be full on gimped, meanwhile the best jump mechs in the game will still be able to make twitch shots with PP FLD, and will still mount enough JJs to matter. This does nothing to the victor but further nerf brawling and further reinforce it as a jump snipe only mech.

This will have no impact at all on the Timber JS, and you have no clue what you're talking about, as always:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...35d9c79777ea3b0

[DONTOR]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

My Meta DS has 4 JJs equipped all the time. Try again, Russ.

Have fun with the extra heat then!

I'm not expecting it to be terrible but it will affect us somehow. Especially my locked in 5JJ Summoner.

Edited by DONTOR, 08 July 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[El Bandito]

DONTOR, on 08 July 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

Have fun with the extra heat then!

What extra heat? I do just fine.

[Bilbo]

El Bandito, on 08 July 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

What extra heat? I do just fine.

The extra heat coming in the next patch.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bilbo, on 08 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

I don't need nor want poptarting itself to be nerfed. It should be a viable play style. I want builds built specifically for it to have disadvantages when they are forced to brawl. The more recent changes coupled with the ones coming up will hopefully do that nicely. With any luck it will actually be a bad idea to have an entire team full of them, relegating poptarting to a role rather than the be all end all.

Nerfing Doesn't mean it is not viable.

A "proper" nerf means something has had it's advantages reined back in line with other gameplay effectiveness. Yes their potential effectiveness at brawling is ONE issue, but I'm sorry, I fear very few 2x AC5/ 2x PPC mechs at PBR, they are effective, to a degree, but hardly boomjagers. The Gauss is deadlier, but only in the hands of the more skilled, as most people can't seem to juggle the charge mechanic and precision aiming on fast, in their face targets.

Poptarting, even with less effective brawling element is the tactic "de rigueur", because it has such a high reward vs the risk. Thus even in your less effective brawling world, it will still be the Meta.

Minor changes to aiming in the air, like the one I recommend does not take away that. It DOES shrink the window they have to fire, and forces them to be more exposed, for longer (and risk attendant counter fire, AND the new jump/fall mechanics), which should equalize the risk/reward ratio. Leaving it a still valid tacit, that the skilled can still pull out of their toolbag, but that is not the obvious go-to choice, as it still is and still demonstrated by the Compies.

And IDC how you want to nerf their CQB, the guys like SJR are gonna face roll most people, regardless. But it would be nice, and even most of them, I believe would agree, to at least get face rolled by mixed builds and tactics.

El Bandito, on 08 July 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

What extra heat? I do just fine.

did you actually read the tweet in the OP?

[El Bandito]

Bilbo, on 08 July 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

The extra heat coming in the next patch.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 July 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

did you actually read the tweet in the OP?

Like that matters to poptarts.

1. I don't have to jump high to poptart.

2. I have plenty of time to cool off.

Non-poptart jumpers are the ones who are shafted. Heat and lift penalties are never the answer to the poptarts and are just punishing other builds more heavily.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 July 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Bilbo]

El Bandito, on 08 July 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Like that matters to poptarts.

1. I don't have to jump high to poptart.

2. I have plenty of time to cool off.

Brawlers are the ones who are shafted. Heat and lift are never the answer to the poptarts.

It will hurt poptarts when they are forced to brawl.

1. I don't intend to fight you where popping over cover will benefit you.

2. Go ahead and take all the time you need between shots. I generally don't need any.

[El Bandito]

Bilbo, on 08 July 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

It will hurt poptarts when they are forced to brawl. 1. I don't intend to fight you where popping over cover will benefit you. 2. Go ahead and take all the time you need between shots. I generally don't need any.

Mhmm, and you think that's how everyone gonna play in pug matches... Sadly poptarts will still reign supreme. This nerf is not gonna change the meta.

[Bilbo]

El Bandito, on 08 July 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Mhmm, and you think that's how everyone gonna play in pug matches... Sadly poptarts will still reign supreme. This nerf is not gonna change the meta.

That's how I've been playing for two years. The upcoming changes would seem to make that easier. We will see.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 08 July 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Like that matters to poptarts.

1. I don't have to jump high to poptart.

2. I have plenty of time to cool off.

Non-poptart jumpers are the ones who are shafted. Heat and lift penalties are never the answer to the poptarts and are just punishing other builds more heavily.

not the point, point was that heat was being added. That's all I am saying.

Anyhow, yes, most of the things being done actually do not appear to be poptart nerfs, and tbh, not sure who are why they are being represented as such, so much as general JJ balancers, which are needed.

As I have long maintained, Poptarting won't be reined in til they focus on ariel aiming. When and if they get around to those, the "general" JJ tweaks will indeed hit poptarts, quite hard, too.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 July 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[Teeboy]

I've been here nearly two years. Have seen many changes and have adapted to them all and so will all of you. I still have a blast even though I am not that good. The day I no longer have fun is the day I will stop playing. Until that day, the only complaint I have is I wish I could play more!!!

[NoClass]

FupDup, on 07 July 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Speaking of which, this game's JJ design is just bad from the very foundation. Jets in this game make you go up slow and steady like a goodyear blimp. People use them for poptarting because that's basically all they're capable of doing.

If they wanted jets used for things like terrain navigation or dodging rather than jumpsniping, they should have probably gone with the MWLL route. Jets there gave you a very fast and powerful "kick" that let you cover a lot of horizontal distance in a short time, rather than the slowmo ascent in MWO. They were a totally badass brawling tool in that mod, way more fun than blimp-style jets that PGI stole from MW4.

Yup. Anticipate incoming fire well enough and you can jump to avoid it in LL. They did two nice balancing acts with JJ. First, vertical thrust pushed the reticle at or above your horizon line. Second, falling rate was much slower than MWO therefore a jumper was exposed to return fire and could not easily skirt damage.

Yes. The JJ in LL are FUN as **** to use. They feel right. MWO's JJ feel clunky and inadequate.

[Vassago Rain]

El Bandito, on 08 July 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

What extra heat? I do just fine.

Ghost jump jet heat.

[Bishop Steiner]

VigilanceHawkwind, on 08 July 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yup. Anticipate incoming fire well enough and you can jump to avoid it in LL. They did two nice balancing acts with JJ. First, vertical thrust pushed the reticle at or above your horizon line. Second, falling rate was much slower than MWO therefore a jumper was exposed to return fire and could not easily skirt damage.

Yes. The JJ in LL are Gundam as **** to use. They feel right. MWO's JJ feel clunky and inadequate.

FTFY

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bilbo, on 08 July 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

The extra heat coming in the next patch.

Extra? There is no heat now.

[WildeKarde]

Maybe they'll change it so PPC's can't be used while jump jets are in use and only start to recharge when jump jets turn off

[kapusta11]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 July 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Nerfing Doesn't mean it is not viable.

A "proper" nerf means something has had it's advantages reined back in line with other gameplay effectiveness. Yes their potential effectiveness at brawling is ONE issue, but I'm sorry, I fear very few 2x AC5/ 2x PPC mechs at PBR, they are effective, to a degree, but hardly boomjagers. The Gauss is deadlier, but only in the hands of the more skilled, as most people can't seem to juggle the charge mechanic and precision aiming on fast, in their face targets.

Poptarting, even with less effective brawling element is the tactic "de rigueur", because it has such a high reward vs the risk. Thus even in your less effective brawling world, it will still be the Meta.

Minor changes to aiming in the air, like the one I recommend does not take away that. It DOES shrink the window they have to fire, and forces them to be more exposed, for longer (and risk attendant counter fire, AND the new jump/fall mechanics), which should equalize the risk/reward ratio. Leaving it a still valid tacit, that the skilled can still pull out of their toolbag, but that is not the obvious go-to choice, as it still is and still demonstrated by the Compies.

And IDC how you want to nerf their CQB, the guys like SJR are gonna face roll most people, regardless. But it would be nice, and even most of them, I believe would agree, to at least get face rolled by mixed builds and tactics.


did you actually read the tweet in the OP?

Dealing random damage due to spread (aim penalties)/damaging legs/generating extra heat with already bad heat system while poptarting and landing pinpoint alphas while hill humping, hmm.. what will I choose?

Edited by kapusta11, 08 July 2014 - 09:34 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

DivideByZer0, on 07 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

I agree. I always felt the MWLL jump jets were pretty close to canon, since TT rules showed JJ increases movement speed.

JJs in TT are capped at walking speed, which is 2/3 max speed (roughly, since running is 1.5x walking, rounded off to the hex).

FupDup, on 07 July 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

While we probably shouldn't go back to what the game was prior to the climbing change, the current angle should probably be relaxed a little bit across the board. Maybe give like 5-10 degrees to each class or something. JJs would still retain their advantages, but would no longer be nearly mandatory for places like Mordor, Alpine, or Canyon.

Absolutely. I have no issue with the system, but the values are all wrong and don't take the playability of map designs into account.

kapusta11, on 08 July 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

If you trully want to fix poptarting (keeping it as a viable tactic) you need to increase exposure time. If you want to increase exposure time you need to reduce vertical speed hence thrust. Just look at Highlander, have you seen them lately in the same numbers as before? - this is the very proof of my point.

I lean the other way. A much more rapid burst, without the fine control, would reduce poptart advantages better. It would make it slightly more difficult to acquire a target and "pre-aim" before dropping thrust to settle the cross hairs. It would also push them further out of cover and expose them to more return fire. Slower thrust actually makes it easier to peek without becoming substantially exposed, and only really hurts the ones with very low weapons mounts, imo.

General Taskeen, on 08 July 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

And yet Jump Jets still don't do what they are supposed to do before or after what they are adding. They did produce accumulated heat each turn in TT if you didn't stop using them, which I find funny that they are finally adding, because MW:LL already did that. In the end, JJ functionality is no where near close to what they should be capable of.

They already produce heat roughly comparable to the TT rules. They just do it over time as they are used, which heat sinks are constantly dissipating, so no significant gain is seen just from the JJs. However, it reduces the mech's ability to dissipate additional heat.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 July 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Nerfing Doesn't mean it is not viable.

Well, actually, it kinda does. It's actually kinda the origin of the term, and why I hate having it thrown around so much. Nerf, as in to make something nerf-like, as in the foam rubber toys, which are harmless and ineffective. I'd say something that's harmless/ineffective in a combat game is non-viable.

Not always the way it's used around here, but it is some of the time, and a significant source of disagreement, as people argue whether something is a "nerf" because of completely different understandings of the word.

Just sayin'.

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 July 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Extra? There is no heat now.

Yes there is.

[Davegt27]

hear is a crazy question what if you paid real money for your jump jets and they get down graded two days later what then?

[Bilbo]

Davegt27, on 08 July 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

hear is a crazy question what if you paid real money for your jump jets and they get down graded two days later what then?

You grin and bear it.