213 replies to this topic

[Tyman4]

Yeah OP sorry your not going to win this one. The higher up you go the more carrying you do in Elo and the less LRMs you see. period end of discussion. Honestly, there is so much equipment to protect you from the dam things its ridiculous.

Take a support kit fox with 3 ams and ecm and 2-3 tons ams ammo. Just by hanging out with your team, no one will die to Lrms. Hell I doubt they even get hit. and if they have radar depravation they shouldn't get hit EVER. There are so many ways to completely negate missles in this game its not even fair to call them Good much less overpowered. They are a weapon to be used against people who make poor decisions that is all.

Tyman

Edit: and tell her to keep punishing the competition. 700 damage feels good doesn't it

Edited by Tyman4, 16 July 2014 - 06:29 AM.

[Bilbo]

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Are you telling me it isn't?


I should have mentioned somewhere that it'd be entirely their own fault for ignoring it.

Just seems like smart play. Just like pop tarting. Minimal exposure. Max reward.

[Devilsfury]

Devilsfury, on 16 July 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

I do not believe LRMs are overpowered but I do agree that they need to be fixed. The easy fix for this is that in order to lock on to someone for LRM fire, you MUST have one or more of the following. 1- Directly line of site. 2- Unit must be tagged. 3- Unit must be Narc'd, 4- unit must be spotted and under UAV. No more of the 150k light that just runs and has eyes on you and then the LRM spam starts. Seriously, why does someone 900m away be able to lock onto a target that is not tag'd, narc, uav, LOS? Really stupid! This will clean up the massive LRM spam in PUG matches. In true competitive play, LRMs arent used very much because most prefer fast, in your face fights. in PUG runs, they are really OP. I think that I am literally averaging 700+ points and game and 3 kills while i drink my coffee and just press fire.

Again, in PUG matches, LRMs are devastating but in high elo/competitive matches they are rarely used. My suggestions would fix most of the issues.

Edited by Devilsfury, 16 July 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Demoncard]

Bilbo, on 16 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Just seems like smart play. Just like pop tarting. Minimal exposure. Max reward.

Smart is a bit of a misnomer. People flocking to specific builds on specific mechs can hardly be considered smart. Being countered will drastically reduce your "reward". As that guy said earlier, lurms vary wildly.

They're also insufferably dull, poptarting slightly less so. But if you find it exciting, and even fun, by all means go ahead and do it.

[Mystere]

Quxudica, on 16 July 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons require more thinking, considering you need to put yourself in actual danger to use them.

Not if your sniping ... or poptarting.

[Bilbo]

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

Smart is a bit of a misnomer. People flocking to specific builds on specific mechs can hardly be considered smart. Being countered will drastically reduce your "reward". As that guy said earlier, lurms vary wildly.

They're also insufferably dull, poptarting slightly less so. But if you find it exciting, and even fun, by all means go ahead and do it.

I personally don't use either tactic. I just don't necessarily begrudge their use by others.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Mystere, on 16 July 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

Not if your sniping ... or poptarting.

[Heeden]

There have been a couple of times (around the time Beta went open and especially when Artemis was released) that LRMs were fairly overpowered and getting caught out of position could be an automatic death sentence. It was actually quite fun in a fast mech to run out into the open and watch the sky light up from anything up to 8 positions (before quickly running back to cover).

There have also been times when LRMs weren't much more than a minor irritant and something I didn't mind ignoring for a while. At the moment they seem in a pretty decent place where they can be dangerous if not handled properly but not totally unforgiving.

One thing I don't like is they seem to severely limit which parts of the map get used, which makes matches very samey after a while (even with no significant number of LRMs on the opposition teams will stick to the safe corridors just-in-case). I also think speed should play more of a factor and mechs travelling at 120kph+ (as a random example) should avoid much of the damage.

[Clannerfodder]

Lrms are a good counter to the meta builds and high pin point damage, lrms can also be countered, i take lrms and srms on most of my builds now, i dont boat them, because that can be easliy countered, i use them in a mix of weapons and ive been seeing good results.

[Marauder3D]

Tricepticon, on 16 July 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

3/10 obvious troll first red flag was when you said "competitive" Never heard of you. If by some chance this is a real post, I really feel bad for you son.

"If you're having LURM problems I feel bad for you son,
I got 99 problems but a LURM ain't one."

[Mystere]

Heeden, on 16 July 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

There have been a couple of times (around the time Beta went open and especially when Artemis was released) that LRMs were fairly overpowered and getting caught out of position could be an automatic death sentence. It was actually quite fun in a fast mech to run out into the open and watch the sky light up from anything up to 8 positions (before quickly running back to cover).

I miss those days. The enemy wasted a whole lot of ammo in futile attempts to get me. Good times.

[Fut]

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

He's not wrong. Sitting hundreds of meters behind the front lines firing lurms while your teammates take damage and hold the enemy isn't a particularly dangerous tactic. The only danger you face is from other lurms, snipers or overly ambitious pop tarts with long range weapons. You needn't ever expose yourself to the enemy with lurms. It's entirely possible that you can go an entire game without appearing on the enemy radar, or taking any damage. Direct fire weapons require that you have direct LoS on your target in order to deal damage, which almost always means that they can fire back at you, given the opportunity. They'll also lock onto you, and expose you to their team's lurms.

You can't fault the LRM-Boats for the fact that (you claim) nobody is smart enough to close distance and brawl with them.

LRM-Boats typically suck some heavy balls once you're looking them in the eye.

Demoncard, on 16 July 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons require that you have direct LoS on your target in order to deal damage, which almost always means that they can fire back at you, given the opportunity. They'll also lock onto you, and expose you to their team's lurms.

Hmmm.. Something does not add up here...
How long does it take to get a shot off and deal damage with an AC? Half a second, maybe slightly more?
How long does it take to get a shot off and deal damage with LRMS? Exactly.

Edited by Fut, 16 July 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[Screech]

Lurm effectiveness always needs to be matched to the effort required to use them.

[Bhael Fire]

The problem with LRMs is not that they are a "no skill" weapon, it's that they require a modicum of skill to avoid them. If you are a low skill player or do not work with your team to neutralize LRM boats immediately, you will die frequently to them.

[Mechteric]

- Slow down LRM velocity to 150
- Introduce Laser AMS
- Make NARC removed by PPC hits (because EMP)
- Reduce TAG range to 500m
+ Make Radar Deprivation only negate normal decay, but allow Target Decay to give a second or 2

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 16 July 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Lootee]

If anything more people need to put LRMs on their mechs.

Nothing pisses me off more than sneaking up close to the enemy at 97kph, dropping an UAV on 8 of them, Narcing a Direwolf, then sneaking back at that painfully slow speed knowing 1 PPFLD alpha will destroy my Kit Fox, only to see not one of the tryhard metaderps on the team has a single LRM launcher. No LRMs on an easy kill map like caustic plus they can't aim worth a damn with their tryhard meta weapons.

I just drop my UAV, use up my Narcs and then go find another game to join. No point wasting time watching the derps lose trying to emulate players far above their skill level.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 16 July 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Mad Strike]

I don't use LRMs has a boat but has backup weapon(one LRM10). Still i find them has weapons made to punish players that don't cover properly , let themselves be narced , not look for spotters...etc..in simple words , learn to play the basics.

[Scurry]

Oh, reminds me of the second (I think) LRMageddon. LRMs were so horribly borked I remember having nothing left of my Mech but a cockpit once. Now that's LRMwarrior online.

Also reminds me of back in Open Beta when everyone went with AMS. Not having AMS was a sign of being a newbie, and trial Mechs were said to be underpowered not just because of no DHS and stuff, but also because of not having AMS stock.

Wonder why people haven't returned to, "AMS or GTFO".

[Solahma]

hmmm... I've been thinking about making a tutorial video series for a while now. Discuss an aspect of the game and what builds and tactics work well for that play style. A video to cover Jump Sniping, Brawling, Skirmishing, Hit-Run, LRMs, Sniping, etc.

Perhaps I'll start off with LRMs and show why it takes a lot more than point-click to make them work well, especially in upper Elo.

[Roland]

Sprouticus, on 16 July 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

I agree Roland, but you have to admit that a lot of those factors ARE based upon the person being shot.

• Using cover is a factor the target can control
  
• Staying near an ECM mech is a facotr the target can control
  
• Bringing AMS is a factor the target can control.
  
• Being fast enough to move to cover when targeted is a factor the target can control.

Pilot skill is the big factor here. If you are good enough that cover is all you need, then dont bother with ECM and AMS. If not, then take ECM or AMS (or 2, or 3).


That having been said, the system as it exists DOES swing from OP to useless, primarily based upon target skill (and somewhat on the skill of the LRM mech).

How would you change the system to make it easier to balance across skill levels?

I think that the primary factor that leads to LRM's being virtually impossible to balance, hinges on the requirement for LRM shooters to maintain a lock throughout the flight path.

This makes LRM's into support weapons which are almost entirely dependent upon spotters being competent, and thus makes usage of them in non-organized groups a crapshoot... because once you fire them, you're basically at the mercy of whoever is holding that target. This introduces a large degree of randomness into the liklihood of whether those missiles will hit.

This, in turn, creates a huge weakness for LRM's, and then necessitates them to be strengthened to try and make up for the fact that so many shots will miss a target even if that target isn't under cover.

But then those buffs result in cases, as we've seen in various past stages of LRM balancing, where individual LRM volleys are crazy strong... and cases where a spotter DOES hold a target result in potentially obliterating that target with impunity.


Because of all this, the first change I'd make would be to revert LRM's to their original functionality, where once they are fired they will track the target, even if you lose lock. This will have a fairly substantial impact on how LRM's are used:
1) First, it will enable LRM shooters to make much more effective use of cover, since they will be able to do things like peek out of cover, get a lock, and fire a volley... then retreat under cover while those missiles fly to the target. This is how it worked in MW4, and missiles were much more satisfying to use (while not at all overpowered).
2) It will put control over LRM damage much more in the hands of the shooter, as whether or not missiles hit the target will be almost entirely dependent upon the target's location at the time of the shot, and whether he will be able to take cover. This will greatly reduce the cases where you fire a bunch of missiles, then something beyond your control happens and the spotter loses the target... and then your missiles are wasted (which is a majorly frustrating aspect of LRM's currently, in PUG games).

That change will make LRM's into weapons which, while still holding a supporting role and having a unique usage pattern compared to other direct fire weapons, will be more in line with other weapon's capabilities.

This will likely enable LRM's themselves to be weakened on an individual basis, such that boated LRM's will not be totally devastating (which they would, if you only implemented the first change).

The result of these changes will be LRM's which are generally useful in many different situations, and which produce a much more consistent damage output for any given match.

This consistent damage output will, in turn, be FAR easier to balance than the current situation with LRM's, where we see wide swings between total garbage and total dominance, largely independent from what the shooter himself is necessarily doing.

Finally, this consistent damage output will also enable LRM's to function as support weapons, combined with OTHER weapons as well on a mech's loadout. Since they will be producing reasonable, consistent damage, they won't really require as much complete dedication when using them.. You'll be able to bring a few missiles to support other weapons, without committing your mech to being "a missile mech".