372 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

RampancyTW, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Is this a joke

In the NARC Jenner that might be a bit of a task if I get thrown on a team with 0 LRMs but that's child's play in a JR7-F

The sun shines on a dog's ass some days. I've had better games than you mentioned in Locusts and Commandos, but those mechs don't consistently perform at that level, and in my recent experience even the best lights like Jenners and Embers struggle to do well consistently. Hell, I used to consider doing less than 500 damage in my Ember a bad game, but due to a number of recent developments I no longer consider that to be the case.

So not a joke, more like a challenge.

[Rampancy]

Lostdragon, on 19 July 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

The sun shines on a dog's ass some days. I've had better games than you mentioned in Locusts and Commandos, but those mechs don't consistently perform at that level, and in my recent experience even the best lights like Jenners and Embers struggle to do well consistently. Hell, I used to consider doing less than 500 damage in my Ember a bad game, but due to a number of recent developments I no longer consider that to be the case.

So not a joke, more like a challenge.

I mean I literally just did it, unless you don't want to count the one 3/5/753 game because there were only 3 kills in it

[Lostdragon]

Deathlike, on 19 July 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

Outside of the crappy falling code, I'm starting to see a lot more bad light pilots on the field.

You have to be kind crazy and dedicated to make the most of it.

While piloting a Light, it is far better to be smarter than to work harder. Occasionally when you have to work harder... it can be unsustainable due to enemy competency, so picking and choosing those battles become rather critical.

Too bad, being well rewarded is out of the question apparently.

I'm not sure that it is bad light pilots... What I noticed is that the tactics that used to be very successful for me no longer work as well. There are also now a lot more mechs capable of killing or crippling a light in one alpha, and that isn't much fun.

For the last year I played lights probably >90% of the time but recently I just don't have fun in them like I used to because I now find it much harder to do well consistently in them. I started adjusting to a less aggressive playstyle, but that isn't really fun either. Lights were always challenging and that was part of what I enjoyed, but now I find them more painful than challenging.

[Lostdragon]

RampancyTW, on 19 July 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

I mean I literally just did it, unless you don't want to count the one 3/5/753 game because there were only 3 kills in it

You must be a better pilot than me, or maybe playing off prime time helps, or maybe our ELO is drastically different. I used to be able to put up gaudy numbers pretty consistently in lights but I just can't do it on a consistent basis anymore.

[Deathlike]

Tetryon88, on 19 July 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

400 damage is actually pretty normal for me when I run my Kitfoxes, with 500+ being a really good match. Maybe I just play them differently than a lot of other people. I won't get 4+ kills, but that kind of damage isn't too hard to achieve.

Clan Lights currently are the exception... because they are slow... so they have to make it up with superior damage over their lack of speed. In essence, you need to be exception "medium pilot". That's what Clan Lights are really.

Lostdragon, on 19 July 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

I'm not sure that it is bad light pilots... What I noticed is that the tactics that used to be very successful for me no longer work as well. There are also now a lot more mechs capable of killing or crippling a light in one alpha, and that isn't much fun.

For the last year I played lights probably >90% of the time but recently I just don't have fun in them like I used to because I now find it much harder to do well consistently in them. I started adjusting to a less aggressive playstyle, but that isn't really fun either. Lights were always challenging and that was part of what I enjoyed, but now I find them more painful than challenging.

All I can say is that it is always frustrating being a light pilot. You simply have to play a superior game than your opponents... that's just the difference between winning or losing.

What ends up happening with the current set of changes is the minimized use of JJs when not necessary (being more ground bound than anything), just in case of emergency. You can still be aggressive... but it's more important to be calculated when you make decisions.

[Rampancy]

Lostdragon, on 19 July 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

You must be a better pilot than me, or maybe playing off prime time helps, or maybe our ELO is drastically different. I used to be able to put up gaudy numbers pretty consistently in lights but I just can't do it on a consistent basis anymore.

My ELO should be pretty decent at this point, though I don't know exactly how it works so maybe it's taking a longgg time to catch up

Gotta stay away from the main fights until later in the match unless you're popping a UAV, skirt around the edges and pick off stragglers/wounded

Your biggest contribution to the fight will be taking away DPS either in the form of lost components or heavier mechs having to divert attention to your 35 tons, and you should be fast enough to stay alive, which will let you accumulate decent damage in 6-7 minutes of fighting

edited for grammar

Edited by RampancyTW, 19 July 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[YueFei]

Terciel1976, on 19 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

Because you stopped to use seismic? That would tend to diminish your survivability, I'd think...

You briefly get seismic readouts when you tap jump jets for a split second and land.

[Kutfroat]

viable lights:

1. variants with ecm
2. the chassis with (still) broken hitboxes - spider and firestarter. try the same things you can do with them with e.g. a commando or locust...good luck trying! you wont make it.

and yes, i play lights. almost exclusevily lately because of the waittimes with heavies. and i do well with all my ecm variants (kit foxes and commando), and my deathknell and locusts collect dust, they just get oblitrated...

[Lostdragon]

Deathlike, on 19 July 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Clan Lights currently are the exception... because they are slow... so they have to make it up with superior damage over their lack of speed. In essence, you need to be exception "medium pilot". That's what Clan Lights are really.




All I can say is that it is always frustrating being a light pilot. You simply have to play a superior game than your opponents... that's just the difference between winning or losing.

What ends up happening with the current set of changes is the minimized use of JJs when not necessary (being more ground bound than anything), just in case of emergency. You can still be aggressive... but it's more important to be calculated when you make decisions.

The JJ and fall damage changes were utterly stupid for lights, but to me the really frustrating thing is the TTK.vThere are tremendous amounts of damage being thrown around. It was always dicey playing a light in a meta heavy environment, but with hit reg working better than ever it seems and the escalation in firepower I find I really have to hold myself back and be bored while I wait for the main group to commence fighting. That is one of the main reasons I started playing lights in the first place, the ability to jump in and out of combat starting very early in the match.

I personally think that with the current way MWO works it is beyond dumb for any mech to be able to get one shot. To me, the problem ultimately is the same one PGI has been kicking down the road for two years: pinpoint damage. A few weeks ago I got one shot by DWFs three matches in a row in an Ember. Now I'm the one doing the one shot kills. Maybe one day I'll go back to mainly playing lights, but right now in most matches I play bringing a light feels like brining a knife to a gun fight.

RampancyTW, on 19 July 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

My ELO should be pretty decent at this point, though I don't know exactly how it works so maybe it's taking a longgg time to catch up

Gotta stay away from the main fights until later in the match unless you're popping a UAV, skirt around the edges and pick off stragglers/wounded

Your biggest contribution to the fight will be taking away DPS either in the form of lost components or heavier mechs having to divert attention to your 35 tons, and you should be fast enough to stay alive, which will let you accumulate decent damage in 6-7 minutes of fighting

edited for grammar

Yeah, I already figure all of that out, the problem is it sucked the fun out of playing lights for me. I like to play striker lights and they just really aren't viable for that role now. You pretty much have to scout or clean up with the big boys, and if you aren't scouting you may as well take a fatty then.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Sean von Steinike, on 19 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

No, because lights are packed with expensive XL engines that end up equaling the cost to fix of their large brethren.

I agree with this to an extent if not for the fact most light deaths are due to loss of limbs and not the engine. Plus I'm hoping PGI would have the foresight to rate repair and rearm based on chassis size like they do with the fall damage module. Hell for extra flavor it would be fun if they rated it based on house/manufacturer instead. Na that's too much work for them to deal with.

[Chimerahawk]

HeavyRain, on 19 July 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

[size=4]

Yeah yeah, I also got 7 kills in the trial Blackjack, does it mean trial medium are the masters of the battlefield?
Good results in inferior mechs are purely circumstantial, the only reason to mention them is to do a little e-peen stroking.

Trial blackjack and trial shadowhawk are two quite good builds. Better than a lot of medium builds.
Also the trial mediums are kinda meta... so yes. Yes they are.

[kongman]

Artgathan, on 19 July 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

Show us where the Jenner touched you.

i cant , im too emotional right now ............

[Joseph Mallan]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 July 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Lights have the natural disadvantages of having little armor, internal health, and not being able to equip much in the way of weaponry and equipment. This has been balanced in the past by lights having extreme mobility. A good light pilot can choose when and where he or she wants to fight, can get to strategically-important positions quickly, and can often get a view of the developing battlefield before the rest of the team. In high-level play being "harder to hit" doesn't come into play, as a skilled opponent will be able to hit you regardless of how fast you're moving. To wit, lights have always been extremely vulnerable to high-damage alphas removing legs or side torsos in a salvo or two.

Despite this high-risk play style, many of PGI's balance changes have made lights even riskier and less rewarding to play.

Turrets make it so lights can't threaten the enemy team with a base cap.

No-min-range Clan LRMs mean lights aren't safe from guided weaponry up close.

Fall damage means lights will often take significant damage before the enemy is even engaged.

The jump jet nerf means that lights have a much harder time getting out of bad situations, and if you reserve fuel to prevent extreme leg damage you get very little jump jet height in the first place, even with 5+ jj.

Every single balance patch doesn't do anything to get rid of the oft-maligned "pop tart" but cripples high-mobility game play even further.

Well you NEED to be crazy to take a vehicle that has less guns and Armor than the majority of competitors. Not everyone is drawn to speed. In fact you have to be kinda crazy to want to pilot a vehicle that weighs 2x the mass of the largest weapons in the game.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 July 2014 - 03:59 AM.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 July 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

Well you NEED to be crazy to take a vehicle that has less guns and Armor than the majority of competitors. Not everyone is drawn to speed. In fact you have to be kinda crazy to want to pilot a vehicle that weighs 2x the mass of the largest weapons in the game.

"The few, the proud, the borderline psychotic"

Although lore-wise, lights and mediums were "the majority of competitors" (70% of the IS 'mechs were lights and mediums, only 10% assaults); that they're not in MWO is just another in the long list of failures from PGI in making this "a BattleTech game".

[Necromonger Commander]

Light pilots like to jump. Now that JJ are almost completely worthless I will no longer drop in lights or mediums.

[Livewyr]

HSR killed the light mech in current game play. (leg damage did not help much either.)

Want more lights?

Add repair.
1% of Chassis cost. (Including Endo/Ferro)
0.1% of Engine (if destroyed)
1% of Weapons Cost...

etc..

And then give rewards for base captures and things.

[Khobai]

repair is a dumb way of getting players to play more lights. youre just punishing players that dont have millions of cbills saved up.

a better idea would be a cbill adjustment based on the percentage weight classes are played. For example (25% - % weight class is played = cbill adjustment). So if light mechs are played 10% of the time they would get a 25 - 10 = +15% cbill bonus. If heavy mechs are played 40% of the time they would get a 25 - 40 = -15% cbill penalty. Since its a % penalty rather than a fixed rate penalty like repair, it wouldnt punish anyone excessively.

And of course the best way to get players to play lights more often would be to implement role warfare. Make light mechs better than heavier mechs at certain tasks crucial to winning and players will use them more often.

Edited by Khobai, 20 July 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[Wolfways]

lockwoodx, on 19 July 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

They COULD brawl before because nobody could hit them. Now... not so much.

But lights were not designed to brawl.

Lights = scouts/harassers/hit-and-run strikers.
Mediums = General purpose mechs, which should be the fastest brawlers but people insist on playing lights that way instead because...SPEEDFREAKS!!!

Some lights are designed solely for combat, like the Jenner but they work in lances, not as individual brawlers.

Sarna:
"A favorite tactic of Jenner lances was to gang up on larger 'Mechs and unleash a devastating alpha strike. One or two of the 'Mechs would be equipped with inferno rounds, so even if the enemy survived the first strike they were badly damaged and running hot, allowing the Jenners to jump to safety and cool down themselves. A few seconds later the attack would be repeated until finally the enemy was dead. It was also common practice to pair the Jenner with another Combine 'Mech, the Panther, creating a deadly combination of sheer speed and firepower with the slower Panther provided cover fire for the Jenner's flanking attack. The Jenner was such a favorite among Kurita MechWarriors that it became the benchmark against which all other newly designed Combine 'Mechs were compared."

[Wolfways]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 July 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yeah, but at least 1/4 of the team is forced to run easy targets now! Role Warfare!

I wouldn't call them easy targets...unless they brawl. They have the speed to move from cover to cover faster, and flank. I do think that assaults are a bit too agile though.

Oh yeah, and lights only get 1-shotted by high alpha meta-mechs. I don't play one and it takes ages to kill lights because they spread damage so well due to the speed..and i miss sometimes

Edited by Wolfways, 20 July 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Wolfways]

Why is noone complaining that the clan lights are too slow?....