296 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

sneeking, on 27 July 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

every man n his dog brings lrm

except for all those who don't.

[Kilo 40]

sneeking, on 27 July 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

but when I do its not like im packing much firepower in a raven is it ?

If ECM only effected your mech you would have a point.

[IraqiWalker]

sneeking, on 27 July 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

in private matches though I can see merit in allowing a pre built team only one ecm.

That I have no problems with. In fact, in cross-unit matches where the competitive match is actually 4 matches (main engagement, 2 flanking actions, and all are preceded by a scouting engagement), they implement all kinds of restrictions, on weight classes, mech types, ECM, and other assorted equipment pieces.

[Livewyr]

sneeking, on 27 July 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

most ecms are easy to track by the low sig, if you have seisimic to go along with that on something like a fire starter you can sniff them out.

a lot of ecm pilots dont use its two modes well.

in private matches though I can see merit in allowing a pre built team only one ecm.

Good news everyone! You can track ECM if you are already within 200 meters of it!

Seriously, that people can, in their head, make a case for something which requires absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing- you could actually forget the mech you are carrying has ECM, and it still gives them a stealth bubble and subsequent LRM invulnerability.

Let me illustrate this for you: (For a head start, Google Wiley Coyote and the Roadrunner, if you do not already know of it.)

[SCENE ONE] (Caustic Valley)
(ECM) Cheeky Cicada 3M strolling through the center of the Caldera- skipping in blissful ignorance.
But there over on the side of the Caldera waits that evil Catapult, waiting to expose the evil Cicada with his BAP to spring his evil LRM trap!
Evil Catapult trains his cross hair on Cheeky Cicada and watches the range tick down... 400...350...325....300......325...350...400...425.. DRAT!

[SCENE TWO] Tourmaline Desert
Cheeky Cicada skips down through the Stargate Ring, whistling a blissful tune.
Oh no! Evil Catapult is aiming a Narc missile right at him! Plop... miss...ground- plop... miss...behind- plop...miss terrain... DRAT!

[SCENE THREE] River City
Cheeky Cicada goes for a blissful swim in the river, giggling with each splash.
Beware! Evil Catapult has a PPC! Surely his Diabolical LRM Gang will doom Cheeky Cicada, watch out!
ZAP!...miss...splash.. ZAP...miss...sizzle ...ZAP...miss....crackle (citadel)
Cheeky Cicada splashes out to open sea. DRAT!

[SCENE FOUR] Canyon Network
Cheeky Cicada, feeling particularly quirky today, trots the center canyon backward, humming a most amused tune!
Oh no... Evil Catapult is grinning wildly! What? Evil catapult has a TAG!!! Oh no Cheeky Cicada! You must use caution!
Evil Catapult perches himself behind the rock on the ridge, grinning cruelly as he pokes his evil grinning cockpit out. 900meters...850....800...750 meters! Suddenly, Evil Catapult sees the red box appear in his eye, that glorious red snowflake appears. "YIPPEE!" he shouts with glee "Fire ALL THE MISSILES!!!" Evil Catapult feels like he is going to explode with excitement as he waits for those little red raindrops to appear above the red box around Cheeky Cicada.

Suddenly:
"What are those little blue and white lights?"
SLAM CRACKLE
WHUMP
"Warning! Critical Damage."
SLAM
POW

Cheeky Cicada turns around at the noise, but sees no movement, so he trots along singing the most peaceful tune.
"Huh? What is this?"
Evil Catapult coughs weakly.
"Oh, Evil Catapult, you are so silly. hehe!"

And with that, Cheeky Cicada hops and skips off into the sunset.
The END.

------------------------------------
Hopefully, this might illustrate the point a little better.


(Before responding, if you think the point of the story is the poor aim of Evil Catapult, please take the appropriate actions to ensure you cannot reproduce.)

Edited by Livewyr, 27 July 2014 - 04:07 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

LRMs are actually fine, something most people who understand the game, basic mechanics and tactics agree on. Go watch ANY competitive match held within the last 4 months. If you see LRMs, come back and tell me. They are the weakest weapon in the game, and unless used against noobs, they don't do much.

Normally, I'm more concerned about what works for the competitive teams rather than new players. Because I do believe that the top level meta game will trickle down, eventually. But in MWO, unlike many other games, there's fairly complex gameplay with very little training for new players, very little information available, and generally very little information flow going from the top level to the grass roots. There's only been one real tournament with videos online to see how the game works at the top level.

Not to mention that the game works completely different when you've got a trained 12-man group of elites on teamspeak, compared to 12 new players, half of whom don't even read team chat, or care what other people are telling them. The game changes so much from one condition to the other, that you have at least consider a solution for the underhive, while balancing for the pr0s.

Another thing to consider is: if LRMs are a non-factor for the top level play, why would you let LRMs be a negative factor in the underhive? If LRMs were properly balanced at the top level, to the point where they were useful without being overpowered, then I could see why PGI would allow them to be over- or underrepresented in the underhive.

[Bhelogan]

OP actually makes a good point. In low ELO games, where people don't know jack about how to actually play, ECM is tough to counter. EMC makes only noob LRM boat teams cringe with fear. Granted, once people have a clue, its a nice feature to have but hardly the determining factor of who wins.

Real question is, should PGI balance the game around people who don't have a clue so that everything works well with no skill? I say no.

[IraqiWalker]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

Good news everyone! You can track ECM if you are already within 200 meters of it!

Seriously, that people can, in their head, make a case for something which requires absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing- you could actually forget the mech you are carrying has ECM, and it still gives them a stealth bubble and subsequent LRM invulnerability.

Let me illustrate this for you: (For a head start, Google Wiley Coyote and the Roadrunner, if you do not already know of it.)

[SCENE ONE] (Caustic Valley)
(ECM) Cheeky Cicada 3M strolling through the center of the Caldera- skipping in blissful ignorance.
But there over on the side of the Caldera waits that evil Catapult, waiting to expose the evil Cicada with his BAP to spring his evil LRM trap!
Evil Catapult trains his cross hair on Cheeky Cicada and watches the range tick down... 400...350...325....300......325...350...400...425.. DRAT!

[SCENE TWO] Tourmaline Desert
Cheeky Cicada skips down through the Stargate Ring, whistling a blissful tune.
Oh no! Evil Catapult is aiming a Narc missile right at him! Plop... miss...ground- plop... miss...behind- plop...miss terrain... DRAT!

[SCENE THREE] River City
Cheeky Cicada goes for a blissful swim in the river, giggling with each splash.
Beware! Evil Catapult has a PPC! Surely his Diabolical LRM Gang will doom Cheeky Cicada, watch out!
ZAP!...miss...splash.. ZAP...miss...sizzle ...ZAP...miss....crackle (citadel)
Cheeky Cicada splashes out to open sea. DRAT!

[SCENE FOUR] Canyon Network
Cheeky Cicada, feeling particularly quirky today, trots the center canyon backward, humming a most amused tune!
Oh no... Evil Catapult is grinning wildly! What? Evil catapult has a TAG!!! Oh no Cheeky Cicada! You must use caution!
Evil Catapult perches himself behind the rock on the ridge, grinning cruelly as he pokes his evil grinning cockpit out. 900meters...850....800...750 meters! Suddenly, Evil Catapult sees the red box appear in his eye, that glorious red snowflake appears. "YIPPEE!" he shouts with glee "Fire ALL THE MISSILES!!!" Evil Catapult feels like he is going to explode with excitement as he waits for those little red raindrops to appear above the red box around Cheeky Cicada.

Suddenly:
"What are those little blue and white lights?"
SLAM CRACKLE
WHUMP
"Warning! Critical Damage."
SLAM
POW

Cheeky Cicada turns around at the noise, but sees no movement, so he trots along singing the most peaceful tune.
"Huh? What is this?"
Evil Catapult coughs weakly.
"Oh, Evil Catapult, you are so silly. hehe!"

And with that, Cheeky Cicada hops and skips off into the sunset.
The END.

------------------------------------
Hopefully, this might illustrate the point a little better.


(Before responding, if you think the point of the story is the poor aim of Evil Catapult, please take the appropriate actions to ensure you cannot reproduce.)

Livewyr. I'm sorry, but you're definitely not making a good case.

ECM has too many counters, doesn't affect 90% of all weapons in the game. Can be countered by plenty of things. (Including a BAP that gives you increased sensor range, Target Info Gathering, and shuts down ECM when close by. A piece of equipment that you also don't need to remember you have. At least with ECM you have to press J to counter another ECM, not just be there.

The only time ECM is frustrating at range is when you have LRMs, and for that, you can counter it with a TAG. Which any LRM boat that isn't piloted by me, would have. (I prefer having 4 MLs instead of 3 in my BLR-1S)

Alistair Winter, on 27 July 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

Normally, I'm more concerned about what works for the competitive teams rather than new players. Because I do believe that the top level meta game will trickle down, eventually. But in MWO, unlike many other games, there's fairly complex gameplay with very little training for new players, very little information available, and generally very little information flow going from the top level to the grass roots. There's only been one real tournament with videos online to see how the game works at the top level.

Not to mention that the game works completely different when you've got a trained 12-man group of elites on teamspeak, compared to 12 new players, half of whom don't even read team chat, or care what other people are telling them. The game changes so much from one condition to the other, that you have at least consider a solution for the underhive, while balancing for the pr0s.

Another thing to consider is: if LRMs are a non-factor for the top level play, why would you let LRMs be a negative factor in the underhive? If LRMs were properly balanced at the top level, to the point where they were useful without being overpowered, then I could see why PGI would allow them to be over- or underrepresented in the underhive.

If LRMs get balanced for the top scene and they become viable there, they would wreck everything in the underhive. Players that don't know how to use them that well will do fine, and those that know how to really use them would annihilate lances single handidly.

Right now, the only thing I would suggest for them is double damage for double the cycle time. That would actually curb the real reason for complaints: constant annoying cockpit shake and temporary blindness from flashes of explosions.

Bhelogan, on 27 July 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

OP actually makes a good point. In low ELO games, where people don't know jack about how to actually play, ECM is tough to counter. EMC makes only noob LRM boat teams cringe with fear. Granted, once people have a clue, its a nice feature to have but hardly the determining factor of who wins.

Real question is, should PGI balance the game around people who don't have a clue so that everything works well with no skill? I say no.

Amen.

[Livewyr]

Iraqiwalker, I am surprised. How do you completely miss the point? What do all 4 scenes have in common?

Sneek, I am not surprised by you at all...

[Livewyr]

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Livewyr. I'm sorry, but you're definitely not making a good case.

Just because you missed it, does not make it a poor case.

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

ECM has too many counters, doesn't affect 90% of all weapons in the game.

1: Again. You miss the whole point of the illustration. (I am not stating it blatantly either until someone else does, or I give up on the forums.. again.)
2: Nice figure you pulled out of your butt, but anyways:
2a: Umbrella Stealth has more implications than just LRMs.
2b: How would you feel if we applied a couple ECM like systems to ballistics and lasers? (I can totally do that, I have it saved somewhere around here as derivatives of the Blue Shield from Btech.)

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Can be countered by plenty of things. (Including a BAP that gives you increased sensor range, Target Info Gathering, and shuts down ECM when close by. A piece of equipment that you also don't need to remember you have.

ECM hardcounters BAP (making its space and tonnage wasted) UNTIL the BAP gets within 150m. Until then.. ECM is working just fun, and BAP is not.

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

At least with ECM you have to press J to counter another ECM, not just be there.

Using equipment to balance itself against itself is terrible, and if you cannot see why, I think we might be done here.
(Hint: Arms Race, Matchmaker balance)

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

The only time ECM is frustrating at range is when you have LRMs, and for that, you can counter it with a TAG. Which any LRM boat that isn't piloted by me, would have. (I prefer having 4 MLs instead of 3 in my BLR-1S)

Remember what happened to Evil Catapult in Scene Four? Can you guess why that happened?

[Alistair Winter]

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

If LRMs get balanced for the top scene and they become viable there, they would wreck everything in the underhive. Players that don't know how to use them that well will do fine, and those that know how to really use them would annihilate lances single handidly.
Right now, the only thing I would suggest for them is double damage for double the cycle time. That would actually curb the real reason for complaints: constant annoying cockpit shake and temporary blindness from flashes of explosions.

I don't agree with either of those. First of all, there's a whole number of variables that can be altered to make LRMs viable in the top scene without making them OP for beginners. There may be no easy solution, but that's not the same as saying it can't be done. For example, you could make them harder to use, and use skill to balance them. For example, make it harder to get a lock, but reduce air time sufficiently that it becomes hard to avoid the damage when someone does get a lock.

Second, something as simple as double damage and half recycle time would still be very frustrating for new players, because a single mistake would result in an LRM barrage that would end the match, not just cripple the mech. A wrong turn is already enough to cripple the mech of new players, if there's a couple of LRM boats in place.

[IraqiWalker]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Iraqiwalker, I am surprised. How do you completely miss the point? What do all 4 scenes have in common?

Sneek, I am not surprised by you at all...

I got the point about the ECM platforms being too mobile for most mechs to counter them, and that is actually not a bad thing.

It's one of VERY FEW features of role warfare out there. Let lights, who traditionally do the scouting roles, engage and deal with enemy ECM. Giving you reason to bring a COM-2D into the fight. Or use light gunboats to kill/leg them quickly. Like the JR7, or FS9 chassis.

Livewyr, on 27 July 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

2: Nice figure you pulled out of your butt, but anyways:

Fine, it's not 90% of all weapons. It's just Streak2s, 4s, and 6s. Guided LRM 5s 10s, 15s, and 20s. (dumb fire still works), out of small, medium, and large lasers, and pulse lasers. AC2s, AC5s, AC10s, AC20s, LBXs, Gauss, and PPCs, and ERPPCs and SRM2s, 4s, and 6s.

[IraqiWalker]

Alistair Winter, on 27 July 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

I don't agree with either of those. First of all, there's a whole number of variables that can be altered to make LRMs viable in the top scene without making them OP for beginners. There may be no easy solution, but that's not the same as saying it can't be done. For example, you could make them harder to use, and use skill to balance them. For example, make it harder to get a lock, but reduce air time sufficiently that it becomes hard to avoid the damage when someone does get a lock.

Second, something as simple as double damage and half recycle time would still be very frustrating for new players, because a single mistake would result in an LRM barrage that would end the match, not just cripple the mech. A wrong turn is already enough to cripple the mech of new players, if there's a couple of LRM boats in place.

LRMs already need significant skill to make them work right. Anyone can use them, yes. However, to use them properly and effectively you need to know many factors, such as the lay of land for where your target is, whether they are under cover, or will be in cover by the time your barrage gets to them. Do you have a proper spotter, are they going to maintain lock long enough for you to hit? Radar dep already makes even almost solid locks a nightmare to maintain, because it disables target decay.

That's just to name a couple of factors. Let's not forget target priority ... .etc.

[Alistair Winter]

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

LRMs already need significant skill to make them work right. Anyone can use them, yes. However, to use them properly and effectively you need to know many factors, such as the lay of land for where your target is, whether they are under cover, or will be in cover by the time your barrage gets to them. Do you have a proper spotter, are they going to maintain lock long enough for you to hit? Radar dep already makes even almost solid locks a nightmare to maintain, because it disables target decay.

That doesn't help if they're not considered a viable choice in top level player. It takes significant skill to use the flamer effectively too, or the AWS-8Q, or the Locust. But that in itself is not proof that it's properly balanced. Right now you basically have to outmaneuver your enemy totally for LRMs to work, and that's hardly going to happen among elite players who have been playing the same tiny maps for 2 years. If LRMs relied less on positioning, NARC and TAG, and more on the skill of the guy pulling the trigger, then you could potentially increase certain factors (such as air time) to the point where you don't have to completely outmaneuver your opponent.

[IraqiWalker]

Alistair Winter, on 27 July 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

That doesn't help if they're not considered a viable choice in top level player. It takes significant skill to use the flamer effectively too, or the AWS-8Q, or the Locust. But that in itself is not proof that it's properly balanced. Right now you basically have to outmaneuver your enemy totally for LRMs to work, and that's hardly going to happen among elite players who have been playing the same tiny maps for 2 years. If LRMs relied less on positioning, NARC and TAG, and more on the skill of the guy pulling the trigger, then you could potentially increase certain factors (such as air time) to the point where you don't have to completely outmaneuver your opponent.

You know what. I can understand that. I partly agree with it, because I can't think of a way to increase the skill needed by the pilot to operate them right now. I also think that requiring a spotter does counteract the fact that you are usually firing with impunity and no fear of retaliation.

[Kilo 40]

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

I also think that requiring a spotter does counteract the fact that you are usually firing with impunity and no fear of retaliation.

a good LRM boat pilot is ALWAYS in fear of retaliation and is always looking over his(or her)shoulder.

[Cybersniper Vickers]

Back to the start of all this -

Zolaz, on 26 July 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

If you are going to PUG it up and want to win, just take ECM mechs.

The original statement is not valid.
Just because you have ECM does not mean an automatic win.
There's a lot of wheel spinning after the OP, but the bottom line should be clear.
Too many variables in games to be able to state that taking ECM equals winning.

[IraqiWalker]

Cybersniper Vickers, on 27 July 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Back to the start of all this -



The original statement is not valid.
Just because you have ECM does not mean an automatic win.
There's a lot of wheel spinning after the OP, but the bottom line should be clear.
Too many variables in games to be able to state that taking ECM equals winning.

Thank you.

[Livewyr]

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

I got the point about the ECM platforms being too mobile for most mechs to counter them, and that is actually not a bad thing.

...I thought I mentioned something regarding the aim of the catapult...

Read it again, and pay very close attention to the Cicada.. what is common with him throughout ALL FOUR SCENES?

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

It's one of VERY FEW features of role warfare out there. Let lights, who traditionally do the scouting roles, engage and deal with enemy ECM. Giving you reason to bring a COM-2D into the fight. Or use light gunboats to kill/leg them quickly. Like the JR7, or FS9 chassis.

That would be achieved with Stealth Armor (which has actual drawbacks to using it)

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

Fine, it's not 90% of all weapons. It's just Streak2s, 4s, and 6s. Guided LRM 5s 10s, 15s, and 20s. (dumb fire still works), out of small, medium, and large lasers, and pulse lasers. AC2s, AC5s, AC10s, AC20s, LBXs, Gauss, and PPCs, and ERPPCs and SRM2s, 4s, and 6s.

Again, how would you feel about fabricating some separate pieces of equipment for ballistics and lasers respectively? I could easily mutate the Blue Shield from TT in the same manner they mutated "Guardian" ECM..

sneeking, on 27 July 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

limit one ecm to a made team leave it random for pugs even if that means every so offten all three ecm is on other team.

That does not change the fact that it is imbalanced. You could make a 2000 damage Gauss Rifle with 4000 meter range and a built in 10x zoom.. limit it to one per group or even hardcode the Matchmaker to make sure there are even numbers on each side.. that does not make it balanced, or healthy for the game.

[Heeden]

Cybersniper Vickers, on 27 July 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Back to the start of all this -



The original statement is not valid.
Just because you have ECM does not mean an automatic win.
There's a lot of wheel spinning after the OP, but the bottom line should be clear.
Too many variables in games to be able to state that taking ECM equals winning.

I think ECM does become a fair bit more powerful in PuGs than it does in more organised play. Without voice-comms you're almost completely reliant on the radar for information on the enemy's location. I'd like to see the radar put up a blip (maybe a small circle) even if the enemy is under ECM coverage. Not targetable or lockable, just a red dot on the map to show that a mech's passive sensors detect a mech's heat signature. I'd like to see it implemented in a way that prevents the "hammer R" method of reporting enemies regardless of ECM.

[IraqiWalker]

Livewyr, on 27 July 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

That would be achieved with Stealth Armor (which has actual drawbacks to using it)

I would love for them to implement Stealth Armor.

Livewyr, on 27 July 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

Again, how would you feel about fabricating some separate pieces of equipment for ballistics and lasers respectively? I could easily mutate the Blue Shield from TT in the same manner they mutated "Guardian" ECM..

They changed Guardian into Angel.