296 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Zyllos, on 27 July 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

But, if you increase damage, then the efficiency just goes back up.

If you want to deal amazing damage with LRMs, in my eyes, then take an Artemis IV to where you have to expose your own self (due to LOS) to the target but your LRMs will be extremely efficient and painful.

It already takes over 400 missiles to go through an Atlas that is just staring at you, and not moving.

[TB Freelancer]

FupDup, on 26 July 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

1.5 (1) ton Jesusbox.

The jesusbox thread was hilarious....and saddening at the same time. Honestly I find PGI's interpretation of ECM to be one of its most out to lunch creations to date. Nearly as bad as the heat and weapon recycle times. Those only being worse because they effect absolutely everything.

[Xeno Phalcon]

All they would need to do was whip their code monkeys for awhile till the little buggers stop fapping off and actually create a distinction between spotted lockon and direct lockons for missiles.

Imagine if you will that I spot a pack of morons huddled around a spider and his jesusbox allows me to target him or the guys hes babysitting - If I had LRMs I could fire on him (because in BT ECM dosnt actually interfere with missiles like that) however my team who are still trying to figure out how to climb the hills now that they all are only running zero or one jump jet don't have line of sight like I do. They can target the spider as well (through spotting) but can't get LRM locks because of the ECM, however If I target one of his friends and they move outside of the ECM bubble my hill humpers can fire their missiles on him too.

Then PGI can stop being a bunch of pansies and release all the ECM capable mechs/variants they have overlooked for fear of saturating the game with their jesusbox.

[MechWarrior849305]

Invisibility of ECM. I love you Yes, you are game breaker, yet I don't care unless no one sees me

[DocBach]

Stefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Do you ever play battletech with master rules, double blind drops, and having ecm mechs in lances?
I did it .... a few years ago.

Yes, and ECM did not prevent sensors from locating you if you were in line of sight. ECM as implemented is the anti-stealth. ECM only had sensor defeating abilities for standard sensors if the standard 'Mech was within the actual ECM bubble. MWO pretty much has ECM completely backwards, where the closer you get somehow the weaker the signal gets.

Beagle and ECM should be two sides of a coin; Beagle should act like seismic sensors did and see through obstacles and terrain, ECM should shroud Beagle's ability to do so.

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 26 July 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

Re-read the fix.

I read it right. It is not a point a click mechanic. A nit pick I understand, but applying an ECM takes more skillz than point and click.

[STEF_]

DocBach, on 27 July 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Yes, and ECM did not prevent sensors from locating you if you were in line of sight. ECM as implemented is the anti-stealth. ECM only had sensor defeating abilities for standard sensors if the standard 'Mech was within the actual ECM bubble. MWO pretty much has ECM completely backwards, where the closer you get somehow the weaker the signal gets.

Beagle and ECM should be two sides of a coin; Beagle should act like seismic sensors did and see through obstacles and terrain, ECM should shroud Beagle's ability to do so.

I'm not agree, but my correct question was "Have you ever play battletech with maximum tech rules?"
What we actually have in MWO works like the angel ecm suite, and I don't see this as a bad thing.
Anyway, if you played bt using mechs with ecm, you perfectly know that if a player A with ecm does a good maneuver and player B doesn't use correctly scouts mechs and counter maneuvers , players B is screwed.

Is there a break game? I don't think so.

[wanderer]

Yokaiko, on 26 July 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

The J button is a lie

You'd think as much with PUGs.

ECM aka Jesusbox is area-effect stealth. It seriously increases the lifespan of the 'Mech on it simply by reducing it's visual profile (that is, no red box of PUG-attracting) and negates missile fire, and if we ever got it on a heavy, it'd show up like mad.

If you'd really want to see how broken it is, just let it be installed on everything.

The forum wailing would be an ocean of delicious tears.

[Joseph Mallan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'm not agree, but my correct question was "Have you ever play battletech with maximum tech rules?"
What we actually have in MWO works like the angel ecm suite, and I don't see this as a bad thing.
Anyway, if you played bt using mechs with ecm, you perfectly know that if a player A with ecm does a good maneuver and player B doesn't use correctly scouts mechs and counter maneuvers , players B is screwed.

Is there a break game? I don't think so.

No it doesn't. Even under MaxTech SSRMs could dumb fire at an ECMed Mech.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 July 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Livewyr]

Stefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'm not agree, but my correct question was "Have you ever play battletech with maximum tech rules?"
What we actually have in MWO works like the angel ecm suite, and I don't see this as a bad thing.
Anyway, if you played bt using mechs with ecm, you perfectly know that if a player A with ecm does a good maneuver and player B doesn't use correctly scouts mechs and counter maneuvers , players B is screwed.

Is there a break game? I don't think so.

I looked at the max rules as well, arguing this with another player. (Name escapes me at the moment)

Guardian, nor Angel ECM effects IR scanners (Table of modifiers says exactly: NA) which it seems is the system MWO uses. (LoS only at around 800m or less without augmentation.

[DocBach]

Stefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'm not agree, but my correct question was "Have you ever play battletech with maximum tech rules?"
What we actually have in MWO works like the angel ecm suite, and I don't see this as a bad thing.
Anyway, if you played bt using mechs with ecm, you perfectly know that if a player A with ecm does a good maneuver and player B doesn't use correctly scouts mechs and counter maneuvers , players B is screwed.

Is there a break game? I don't think so.

Yes, I knew what you meant. ECM in MaximumTech hid unit identification; at long ranges beyond visual range your sensors couldn't tell you if the target was a 'mech, tank, whatever. It would be like now, how you have to wait a couple seconds to see a readout, except the readout never materializes.

The ECM rules were also expanded to allow you to generate ghost targets, which added an additional target modifier to units firing upon ECM shrouded enemies. This could be put in the game in several different ways, with false sensor hits, static on the radar screen that gets worse as you get closer to the ECM, etc.

But what we have in the game is less Angel ECM and more Angel ECM with Stealth Armor for an entire lance around it, with none of the critical space or heat generation requirements Stealth Armor has. It is poorly implemented, and instead of a million dumb ways to counter it (including bizarro land mode where everything ECM exists to counter actually counters it).

A very neat idea to make ECM useful is to make C3 a part of the game. Whereas Clan Targeting Computers provide bonuses to a single 'Mech, C3 networked 'mechs would gain scaling bonuses dependent on how close a member of their lance is to an enemy; ECM could sever this network and negate the bonuses.

And no, we don't already have C3 in this game already.

[STEF_]

"The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area. " Maximum Tech, pp. 77-78

Of course the booble of 6 hexes cover friend mechs too. And without stealth armors.
I think it's easy to do a fix giving ssrms the possibility to be fired as srm at will.
Anyway the game is not broken by (angel) Ecm. Simply it is more difficult.
I enjoy both side.

[DocBach]

Stefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

"The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area. " Maximum Tech, pp. 77-78

Of course the booble of 6 hexes cover friend mechs too. And without stealth armors.
I think it's easy to do a fix giving ssrms the possibility to be fired as srm at will.
Anyway the game is not broken by (angel) Ecm. Simply it is more difficult.
I enjoy both side.

So uh, where in those rules does it say that Angel ECM completely blocks standard sensors for the 'Mech carrying it (and any 'mech that happens to be near it)? It is an electronic countermeasure device which counters specific electronic systems.

In the Battletech universe, ECM suites (Guardian, Angel, and Clan ECM) counter advanced electronics; stealth armor provides protection against standard sensor detection. Stealth armor, however, takes up several criticals throughout the 'Mech, generates 10 heat per turn, and only works on the 'mech it is installed upon.

Edited by DocBach, 27 July 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Zolaz]

Bulletsponge0, on 27 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

not true

Yo dawg, reading is fundamental ... like the next sentence.

[Deathlike]

IraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Yes, countering ECM with BAP or TAG requires exposing yourself. Which I have no problem with. If you want to counter it without exposing yourself, that would be absolutely broken.

At least an ECM mech is already in the open when you have visual of it.

That's not actually accurate. You can counter ECM w/o exposing yourself (BAP and ECM create an area based counter)... but you'd have to be within the counter radius of ECM or BAP (180m and 150m, respectively). Since the counter radius is NOT LOS based (you can counter a mech w/o being physically visible to it)... although it's more obvious to the ECM carrying mech (BOTH target AND attacker - you get the obvious ECM counter HUD display) than a BAP wielding mech (you can see the "low signal" going away, but you'd actually need Seismic to figure out the relative/exact location of the ECM mech - you are at least within the vicinity of the ECM mech since the "cloak" has been disabled).

Seismic isn't an actual ECM counter, but you can get a very good feel for all mechs that are around you (it is called "Seismic Wallhack" for a reason). So, it's a good combo to go with BAP.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 July 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[STEF_]

DocBach, on 27 July 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

So uh, where in those rules does it say that Angel ECM completely blocks standard sensors for the 'Mech carrying it (and any 'mech that happens to be near it)? It is an electronic countermeasure device which counters specific electronic systems.

In the Battletech universe, ECM suites (Guardian, Angel, and Clan ECM) counter advanced electronics; stealth armor provides protection against standard sensor detection. Stealth armor, however, takes up several criticals throughout the 'Mech, generates 10 heat per turn, and only works on the 'mech it is installed upon.

If it were so, I don't understand why rules say "Ecm suite generate a bubble" if it covers only the mech carrying it.
When I played bt, we used angel to cover friend units; otherwise what does the bubble serve for?

[InspectorG]

I would be fine if the stealth umbrella was dropped down to 90m.

I think ECM should break a lock if it bisects the shooters line of sight(and a c-bill/xp bonus). Could give lights a defensive role.

With the small umbrella, E-COUNTER-M should break narc and tag. The trade is a huddle, which makes those huddling a group target. Or the light has to run around playing anti-lrm-support.

Counter mode ECM should be what the BAP does. ECM should have an on/off mode for snipers/backstabbers.

BAP should null ECM and find shut down mechs at a greater range(mainly to punish those cowards trying to save their kdr), this could help with some conquest scenarios as well.

My ideas and im not claiming to be leet or anything...

[IraqiWalker]

Zolaz, on 27 July 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Yo dawg, reading is fundamental ... like the next sentence.

Reading is fundamental. Did you think about what you read in his reply. His reply applies to the entire post. He's saying it's not true, for solo drops as well, not just coordinated 12 mans.

Here's a very simple scenario where your strategy not only falls flat, but completely fails. Crimson Strait engagement under the parking lot, and in the tunnel. ECM and LRMs are worth exactly zilch there.

Oh, let's add HPG Manifold, it has the basement down below. How about Forest Colony, where there's plenty of tall cover, a tunnel, and good lanes of fire, all over the map? Let's add Terra Therma into the mix, as well, ECM maybe effective there, but LRMs sure as hell aren't.

Stefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

If it were so, I don't understand why rules say "Ecm suite generate a bubble" if it covers only the mech carrying it.
When I played bt, we used angel to cover friend units; otherwise what does the bubble serve for?

I think he was talking about ECM completely shutting down the ability of enemies to target your mech (not get locks, just target and select). ECM suites made locking on, and using guided weaponry impossible, but the enemy could still target the mech.

[Fleeb the Mad]

The best way I can figure to balance ECM in its current implementation is to make its effects apply to both hostile and friendly targets inside the bubble. If friendly mechs shielded by an EM bubble were equally unable to target enemies who could not target them, it would get much more interesting. At the very least I'd make it so a mech carrying an active ECM in disrupt mode would itself be under the full effects of ECM and have to actually exercise some discretion in its use. At the moment it provides a very lopsided bonus to chassis that mount it.

Honestly I like double blind games. Being able to sneak and maneuver without it being blown by an enemy's field of view passing over you, even if the pilot didn't notice themselves, is nifty. If I had to settle for less, the removal of its stealth feature that prevented ECM mechs from showing up on the minimap and HUD would be fair. Something blaring a bunch of EM noise shouldn't be invisible.

Edited by Fleeb the Mad, 27 July 2014 - 02:24 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Fleeb the Mad, on 27 July 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

The best way I can figure to balance ECM is to make its effects apply to both hostile and friendly targets inside the bubble. If friendly mechs shielded by an EM bubble were equally unable to target enemies who could not target them, it would get much more interesting. At the very least I'd make it so a mech carrying an active ECM in disrupt mode would itself be under the full effects of ECM and have to actually exercise some discretion in its use. At the moment it provides a very lopsided bonus to chassis that mount it.

Yeah, but that actually violates more rules of reality than the current implementation of ECM. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to try that for a couple of weeks, I'm all for experimentation, but I think that it would upset people even more so than now.