296 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

They have?

Once upon a time, they flew 100m/s...

[Ryoken]

Heeden, on 28 July 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

The only problem I have with ECM is the effect it has on PuGs without voice-coms, but in general it isn't that terrible.

LRMs on the other hand annoy the hell out of me and even if we eventually win spending 5 minutes behind a rock waiting for them to get bored or run out of ammo leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

ECM implementation into MWO is plain wrong and breaks the game. This is more severe in pug play than in coordinated groups. Still ECM is broken and everyone knows it for more than 2.5 years. PGI needs to fix it and remove the ECM abilities like stealth armor abilities or hindering of lock on. We need a CORRECT implementation of ECM.

If you have problems with LRM l2p. Really its a laughable weapon system allready.

[Heeden]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

They have?

LRMs have been nerfed and buffed lots of times since I started playing (open beta). They were horrendously powerful in the earliest games I played, possibly worse when Artemis came in, nerfed to a state where they were barely worth the effort needed to avoid them, even for lights. Currently I feel they're a touch more powerful than I would like; either too fast, too strong or too manoeuvrable so areas that should be risky when the enemy has LRMs are total death-traps.

Overall they're probably in the best/most balanced state I've ever seen them and I'm loath to ask for a nerf because I know how quickly they can be slammed into oblivion, but with the Underhive being flooded by people who realise they're very newby friendly and a good way to pad damage and k/d stats (as well as making some c-bills) LRMs are becoming a bit of a fun-killer for me.

[Heeden]

Ryoken, on 28 July 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

ECM implementation into MWO is plain wrong and breaks the game. This is more severe in pug play than in coordinated groups. Still ECM is broken and everyone knows it for more than 2.5 years. PGI needs to fix it and remove the ECM abilities like stealth armor abilities or hindering of lock on. We need a CORRECT implementation of ECM.

If you have problems with LRM l2p. Really its a laughable weapon system allready.

I can see this going places ^.^

"ECM can be a nuisance but LRMs are a pain"
"LRMs are a joke l2p, but ECM is the devil"
"ECM ain't that bad l2p, LRMs are fun-killers"
...and so on.

Personally I think we should have a passive heat-signature detector (or something) that works regardless of ECM and it should be shared on the radar with the other team-mates, just to make the radar more effective for PuGs or other people without voice-coms.

[wanderer]

Phashe, on 28 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Hmmm. I think ECMs are fine. LRM boats ruin a match for me. I do not pilot slow mechs personally, but I think it stinks that the only way an atlas can play these days is to be an LRM boat... They cannot get into close range with all the LRM button mashers out there.

If you slap Atlai into "LRM boat or bust", you are in the depths of suckitude. With the SRM fixes, AC/20 + SRMs + MLs on a DDC is a face-shredding brawler again.

And if your game is getting ruined by LRM boats, we're just happily taking advantage of your failure to learn. It's wonderful. Every time someone whines about LRMs, I know they're going to be the same guys who waltz out into the kill zone the next game, and the next, and the next.

LRMs get less effective as ELO improves. Ergo, if you have problems with LRMs, it is, quite simply, a skill issue. Learn to play or keep dying, whining, and advertising your failure. Either way, the fault lies in the person who can't learn to deal with the missiles, as LRMs get obliterated in better levels of play.

[ollo]

Let's face it, PGI are too dumb/stubborn to implement ECM properly right now. It serves as a poor excuse for 'information warfare', and if they'd implement it how it's intended to be, there would be no 'IWF' until we reach the point in the timeline Angel ECM is introduced.

...at which point they'll nerf ECM to the bone and make AECM MC only.

Oh sorry, not trying to appear bitter. Just broken. -.-

[Gavalin]

Reguardless you can't have an item or system that can not be defeated in some manor. Yes ECM in clusters can be a pain in group play more so if you deploy a lot of LRM's. The trick is using tactics and communication to defeat that team. Using ECM ravens or other fast mechs to peek in and pull a mech away from the main force.

ECM's are not over powered. With out ECM LRMing would be too OP. With out LRM, ECM would do good only on faster snipers.

BAP defeats it for streaks (As long as there is not two ECM's which again is fine, watching two streak oxides run from two 3L raven's is just comical) But again, you can have BAP defeating ALL ECM or it would become more powerful and in competitive play there would be a lance of streak boats that go around murdering one thing at a time for the LuLs.

Lot of people complain about the affects of ECM in the game, this is mostly due to their knowledge of only PUGing or low teir games. Area's of the game that they completely ignore are obviously not taken into account when voicing their opinion. If you want to see what is over powered or "Annoying" watch the championships. You'll see real quick what needs work.

When 80% of all players in the competitive world use "this", that is OP. (in a 12v12 game you'll see 4 mechs used some times, thats 24 players and only 4 mechs varients, loadouts are generally identical)

ECM has already been beat with a nerf stick on all the things that do defeat it. By the ruling on table top none of the things that defeat it now should work. (Someone posted those things earlier). I think PGI addressed ECM very well because yes it needs to be cancelled in other ways, this game functions much differently than the table top.

As far as the LRM haters/lovers. So many people play LRM's in such a horrible way I could care less about what they say. Lot of people believe LRM sweet spot is 900 meters behind a wall with their middle finger up. If you can't go tag your own target and think ECM is the devil...get a tag...get your own target...it's that simple. I've ran about with an LRM boat some games you don't even break a sweat and roll other games a light gets up on you and no one helps you. Just how this goes. As far as LRM's taking a nerf they as well needed it. Prior to the damage nerf's, my Atlas could barely get from building to building or cover to cover before losing both arms or a shoulder to a single LRM mech that just has the advanced target decay.

The point is a balance, with out playing both sides and completely understanding the casual and competitive standings of the items implimented you can not develop an accurate opinion. If you think ECM completely shutting down your LRM 100 Stalker is a problem...maybe you should go down to an LRM 60 and get some back up large lasers or PPC's Just saying.

[ollo]

Gavalin, on 28 July 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

As far as the LRM haters/lovers. So many people play LRM's in such a horrible way I could care less about what they say.

All i can say that i'm bored to death on some games with the LRM-only clan variants i've bought recently. But i guess i just play them in a horrible way.

[1453 R]

First of all: have not read entire thread yet, am currently working on it. Saw a few things that made me alternate laugh and want to hate myself, and so decided to write post because bored. And also irritated. If this offends, skip post and enjoy remainder of day.

That said:

I like how people think that the lore-appropriate effects of the G-ECM suite – i.e. cancelling/nullifying the effects of advanced electronics such as NARC, Artemis, the Fuzzy Puppy Detector, and C3 – would matter one flatulent ferret fart in this game.

“I can spend 1.5(1)t and 2(1) crit slots to…not be affected by a thing that: 1.) nobody carries, 2.) nobody bothers with, 3.) people only equip because they need it to deal with as-exists ECM and which nobody would take if ECM was reverted to lore, and 4.) doesn’t exist yet? AWESOME! That’s such a fantastic ability! It’s almost half as good as the extra DHS I could shove in there instead! Let me go find space for this thing right now!”

Lemme ask you this, folks – how many of you currently equip Active Probes on non-Streak ‘Mechs? I do, but I’m also an information junkie who’s been a sensor-crazed Find Stuff Guy in most any game that lets me be stuff, and even still it’s only been fairly recently (and with the introduction of the lighter, tighter CAP), that I’ve started incorporating active probes into a number of my machines regardless of whether they carry Streaks or not.

With the game in the state it currently is, the lore-appropriate version of the Guardian ECM system would be a 1.5-ton, 2-slot derperweight. It would offer no advantage to its carrier whatsoever and be left off of any design that made any sense whatsoever. The G-ECM’s only possible function which is both lore-appropriate and useful would be its ability to make Stealth Armor work – which, hey! Is sort of what it does now except without the Stealth Armor part!

I agree that the device is too strong as currently stands. The simple fact that Piranha is so incredibly tight-fisted with ECM is a pretty damning indication of its game-breaking ridiculousness. That said…there’s no reason to reduce it to a state of being less useful than Ferro-Fibrous armor on assault ‘Mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Information is ammunition there 53R. I have both Sensor Modules, my Command Console and ECM... What do I win?

[Gavalin]

@ollo: Well if you included the next line I'd not say much but since you are not taking the sentence in context of play, if you sit a 900 meters and do nothing but twittle your thumbs...yes you're doing it wrong, unless you have a spotter about 50% of the time you can not even offer aid to the team.

Plus last I checked no mech has to be LRM's only, might start that way but they don't have to stay that way. Plus you said clan. Clan LRM's can do comparable damage and are just fine to use as close as 100 meters after that the damage drop off is a bit too steep for me to consider firing them. If you are in a clan mech going 70ish you can out manuver a lot of mechs still, no reason to not put a BAP or just go machine gun fire then at more of a brawler style of play. LRM's are so much more versitile than most people give them credit for that it just irritates me, you CAN lrm under the saddle area in Crimson strait, you CAN fire LRM's in the basement of HP manifold. You CAN fire them in caves and tunnels you just have to know where and how.

But do continue being the last mech alive in the back the "Horrible way" and I'll keep finding the stragglers with 2000 missiles in their mech complaining about their team sucking

Edited by Gavalin, 28 July 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[Arrogusss]

Played a game yesterday on River City night.
Other team had 3 different groups across the way, each one shielded by ecm... and it went terrible for us..
I think I typed something to the sorts of>

" That felt like 25 vs 12. Fuckn ECM aka Easy Cheat Mode"

It was very frustrating, but played well by the other team i guess.
I agree that only the equipped mech should have the stealth benefit..but I'm just an ANTI-GUY.
I do like the term EASY CHEAT MODE though, lol. Expect to see me using it more often if you see me around all butt hurt chatting dead in game

[Livewyr]

1453 R, on 28 July 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

First of all: have not read entire thread yet, am currently working on it. Saw a few things that made me alternate laugh and want to hate myself, and so decided to write post because bored. And also irritated. If this offends, skip post and enjoy remainder of day.

That said:

I like how people think that the lore-appropriate effects of the G-ECM suite – i.e. cancelling/nullifying the effects of advanced electronics such as NARC, Artemis, the Fuzzy Puppy Detector, and C3 – would matter one flatulent ferret fart in this game.

“I can spend 1.5(1)t and 2(1) crit slots to…not be affected by a thing that: 1.) nobody carries, 2.) nobody bothers with, 3.) people only equip because they need it to deal with as-exists ECM and which nobody would take if ECM was reverted to lore, and 4.) doesn’t exist yet? AWESOME! That’s such a fantastic ability! It’s almost half as good as the extra DHS I could shove in there instead! Let me go find space for this thing right now!”

Lemme ask you this, folks – how many of you currently equip Active Probes on non-Streak ‘Mechs? I do, but I’m also an information junkie who’s been a sensor-crazed Find Stuff Guy in most any game that lets me be stuff, and even still it’s only been fairly recently (and with the introduction of the lighter, tighter CAP), that I’ve started incorporating active probes into a number of my machines regardless of whether they carry Streaks or not.

With the game in the state it currently is, the lore-appropriate version of the Guardian ECM system would be a 1.5-ton, 2-slot derperweight. It would offer no advantage to its carrier whatsoever and be left off of any design that made any sense whatsoever. The G-ECM’s only possible function which is both lore-appropriate and useful would be its ability to make Stealth Armor work – which, hey! Is sort of what it does now except without the Stealth Armor part!

I agree that the device is too strong as currently stands. The simple fact that Piranha is so incredibly tight-fisted with ECM is a pretty damning indication of its game-breaking ridiculousness. That said…there’s no reason to reduce it to a state of being less useful than Ferro-Fibrous armor on assault ‘Mechs.

You mean... Tabletop ECM might be as useful as BAP, Artemis, and Narc? By countering them? What?

(Yes, it would be a paperweight, when compared to what it is now.)

[1453 R]

Livewyr, on 28 July 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

You mean... Tabletop ECM might be as useful as BAP, Artemis, and Narc? By countering them? What?

(Yes, it would be a paperweight, when compared to what it is now.)

Hardee har har.
It would be a paperweight compared to the Flamer. At least the flamer can blind folks in melee-range combat and lag out bad systems. G-ECM in tabletop mode wouldonly even come into play maybe once or twice every one match in five, because the Beagle Active Probe has been rendered almost completely useless by the removal of the enhanced-detection part of its 120-meter enhanced detection radius, NARC has only recently become even remotely worth even bothering with and that solely because of a module relatively few people have, Artemis is glitched and doesn’t work well even when it works, and…

Yeah. A better statement/question would be “why is all electronic equipment in MWO except G-ECM complete and utter garbage?”

I want to be the classic 3L, damnit! I want to load a ‘Mech down with advanced electronics and be that guy providing all kinds of nifty bonuses to my team, who can track down that needle in a map-sized haystack at the end of a game, who can walk into a city and detect ambushes and hidden/non-LoS’d attackers LIKE THE BEAGLE PROBE IS F^%@!ING SUPPOSED TO DO.

Why is it that the only things that even remotely act like that are fisking modules, man? In what sane world is Seismic objectively better at finding things than the Beagle Active Probe?!

You folks want Guardian ECM returned to its lore-appropriate state? All right – then make Artemis halve the spread on launchers and give me back my 120-meter full detection radius on the Beagle. As a start. Make the things the G-ECM is supposed to eliminate actually worth eliminating, and then we can talk.

[Livewyr]

1453 R, on 28 July 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Hardee har har.
It would be a paperweight compared to the Flamer. At least the flamer can blind folks in melee-range combat and lag out bad systems. G-ECM in tabletop mode wouldonly even come into play maybe once or twice every one match in five, because the Beagle Active Probe has been rendered almost completely useless by the removal of the enhanced-detection part of its 120-meter enhanced detection radius, NARC has only recently become even remotely worth even bothering with and that solely because of a module relatively few people have, Artemis is glitched and doesn’t work well even when it works, and…

Yeah. A better statement/question would be “why is all electronic equipment in MWO except G-ECM complete and utter garbage?”

I want to be the classic 3L, damnit! I want to load a ‘Mech down with advanced electronics and be that guy providing all kinds of nifty bonuses to my team, who can track down that needle in a map-sized haystack at the end of a game, who can walk into a city and detect ambushes and hidden/non-LoS’d attackers LIKE THE BEAGLE PROBE IS F^%@!ING SUPPOSED TO DO.

Why is it that the only things that even remotely act like that are fisking modules, man? In what sane world is Seismic objectively better at finding things than the Beagle Active Probe?!

You folks want Guardian ECM returned to its lore-appropriate state? All right – then make Artemis halve the spread on launchers and give me back my 120-meter full detection radius on the Beagle. As a start. Make the things the G-ECM is supposed to eliminate actually worth eliminating, and then we can talk.

I do think the Electronics needs to be beefed up.
(Give BAP 50% Range Boost?)
Narc is already strong enough. (Maybe even too strong.)
Artemis is pretty strong as well.

ECM should counter those things... (as well as the UAV)

[1453 R]

Livewyr, on 28 July 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

I do think the Electronics needs to be beefed up.
(Give BAP 50% Range Boost?)
Narc is already strong enough. (Maybe even too strong.)
Artemis is pretty strong as well.

ECM should counter those things... (as well as the UAV)

A range boost will not make the Beagle desirable. It’s already generally held to be difficult to effectively engage a target much outside 1000m anyways, outside trollshots.

Beagle. Needs. Its. 360-degree. Detection. Back. It’s a piece of equipment explicitly designed to allow a recon unit to detect hidden or obscured enemies in close proximity in crowded environments like cities, so as to forestall ambushes. The fact that Seismic Sensor – A FISKING MODULE – gets to offer the player 360-degree anti-ambush detection for zero slots and zero tons while the Beagle Active Probe acts as a moderate-at-best boost to the unit’s basic sensors with no real benefits beyond longer range and quicker TIG (nice, but not what the Beagle was for) should be considered absolutely criminal by the player base.

TT considered the Beagle and/or its Clan equivalent to be necessary equipment for a proper modern scout. The presence or absence of an active probe was part of the criteria for determining whether or not a thing qualified as a scout. If I recall correctly, the G-ECM was originally introduced specifically to rein in the Beagle and give commanders some relief from scent-hound light ‘Mechs finding ALL DA THINGZ, with its additional countermeasure systems considered a useful bonus to its primary job of shutting down the Beagle.

How in Creation is it okay for the Beagle, in its current iteration, to be something a dedicated MWO scout player has trouble justifying weight and space for in his machine?!

Horrible mutant one-dimensional Information Warfare is still better than none at all. And if G-ECM is reduced to nullifying the effects of a bunch of equipment that already have completely negligible effects, when what we’re at is a game wherein the EWAR and IW side may as well not exist, because not a single piece of electronic equipment in the game would be worth the trade for the DHS you could have instead.

And being categorically and completely not worth one or two DHS in any/all situations where that particular trade is an option is a dirt-poor way of implementing IW.

[DocBach]

The lore appropriate state of Guardian ECM would also hinge on Beagle receiving a buff -- both Beagle and Guardian receive expanded usage with later rule sets; Guardian can spoof sensors with ghosts, Beagle can locate 'Mechs beyond line of sight.

Beagle should:

Radar through terrain ability like seismic, in a 360 degree radius
Be able to see more information about the enemy 'Mech (perhaps a key that shows the weapons loadout, actual armor values, etc in a record sheet sort of like the MechLab overview)

ECM should:

Block Beagle's ability to detect 'Mechs behind cover
Block Beagle's ability to gain detailed information
Blocks Artemis and Narc, does not affect standard sensors
Have a third mode that causes static to radar screen of enemies inside of its bubble, which increases the closer you get to the ECM source, and creates fake sensor images that enemies have to cycle through to locate actual enemies

C3 should be added to the game as the IS version of Clan targeting computers -- whereas Clan fighting style is all about the individual, Inner Sphere bonuses should be uniquely team oriented. 'Mechs in a C3 network would gain scaled bonuses to projectile speed/target info etc based on the proximity of the closest C3 spotter but the bonuses would be blocked by ECM, and disabled totally if the C3 commander 'Mech gets destroyed.

One gains information more than standard sensors, the other blocks it, and a third ECM mode doesn't provide complete sensor stealth, but sensor confustion

Edited by DocBach, 28 July 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[Livewyr]

I do not mind the idea of 360 degree detection, as long as there is not terrain between you and target. (I hated MW4's Active radar.)

That would allow ECM to have the "effective" stealth it has now (as it is designed to defeat BAP IIRC) by preventing 360 detection.

[DocBach]

ECM is suppose to block the Beagle, so an ECM shrouded unit would not be detected by Beagle behind cover or behind the arc of its standard sensors.

[Strum Wealh]

1453 R, on 28 July 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Hardee har har.
It would be a paperweight compared to the Flamer. At least the flamer can blind folks in melee-range combat and lag out bad systems. G-ECM in tabletop mode wouldonly even come into play maybe once or twice every one match in five, because the Beagle Active Probe has been rendered almost completely useless by the removal of the enhanced-detection part of its 120-meter enhanced detection radius, NARC has only recently become even remotely worth even bothering with and that solely because of a module relatively few people have, Artemis is glitched and doesn’t work well even when it works, and…

Yeah. A better statement/question would be “why is all electronic equipment in MWO except G-ECM complete and utter garbage?”

I want to be the classic 3L, damnit! I want to load a ‘Mech down with advanced electronics and be that guy providing all kinds of nifty bonuses to my team, who can track down that needle in a map-sized haystack at the end of a game, who can walk into a city and detect ambushes and hidden/non-LoS’d attackers LIKE THE BEAGLE PROBE IS F^%@!ING SUPPOSED TO DO.

Why is it that the only things that even remotely act like that are fisking modules, man? In what sane world is Seismic objectively better at finding things than the Beagle Active Probe?!

You folks want Guardian ECM returned to its lore-appropriate state? All right – then make Artemis halve the spread on launchers and give me back my 120-meter full detection radius on the Beagle. As a start. Make the things the G-ECM is supposed to eliminate actually worth eliminating, and then we can talk.

I've maintained a similar stance for some time, now - the problem is not the MWO implementation of Guardian (which isn't even fully-featured compared to TT Guardian - TT Guardian actually has even more abilities on top of what MWO Guardian can do), but the largely-lackluster MWO implementation of all of the rest of the EW/IW equipment.

I - and, I suspect, you - would like little more to see PGI improve/"buff" the rest of the EW/IW equipment (including Beagle, the Command Console, and the hopefully-to-be-introduced C3 System) to the point that EW/IW effectively became a game unto itself.

Let's bring all of the EW/IW gear to its full canonical capabilities (which includes both lore & TT gameplay rules)!