1258 replies to this topic

[MasterBLB]

That idea is utter garbage.Abandon it immediately,PPCs and Gauss need no further messing them.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Lol. Another "no brain" update gonna appear in game. Nice. Regarding to what most of forumers say about PPC and Gauss, they are sniper weapons. Now, a question?
- Lads, how you think, if a IRL sniper weapons would have a slow travelling "shell" would they be a sniper weapons?
The right answer is: - NO!
Yes, if we moving towards to canonic mechanics like in Battletech Universe that'll be right cause both weapons such as GR or PPC/ERPPC need to charge their capacitors before they shoot. But nerfing the "charge/shell" speed is totalu dumb. During the nerf of simultaneous use of the both weapons, again, regarding to that the both weapons are "sniper weapons" travelling speed of "shell"must be buffed on at least 1,5, plus damage must be also buffed.
About that fact that autocannons will be also affected, that is so poor and awkward. AC's do not use capacitors to charge, they use conventional method of throwing the shell against the target. So? They must NOT be affected at all.
Plus balancing of AC's between the IS and CLans still not been made at all. Actually AC's are just a self-loading cannons while U-AC's are a fully automatic weapons and also "actually" both are continuous fire weapons. What we got in game?
Sure, everything but not the right way of those AC's/U-AC's working, especially the Inner Sphere weapons.

So, in the first place we actually need a massive rebalance patch about existing weapons, and only than make some different mechanics for G00ss+PPC usage.

So the feed back is: - NO. Not before the both fractions weapon balance and ghost heat disappearance.

Edited by Lala Satalin Deviluke, 30 July 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Please do NOT make PPCs slower. They are particles, they should travel at speed of light, not the speed of a modern sniper rifle, quiaff?

The first solution is a bit complicated, but it makes more sense. I believe that Homeless Bill may have some ideas around a power-based system.

Anyway, a loss of convergence based on distance and movement seems the best solution to me.. Any chance it might be tested?

Besides,

Edited by CyclonerM, 30 July 2014 - 02:59 AM.

[Ted The Prussian Striker]

MasterBLB, on 30 July 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

That idea is utter garbage.Abandon it immediately,PPCs and Gauss need no further messing them.

^- Haha. Right now, we see Direwolfs that can take other 'Mechs out of the game with a single salvo. This means at the current stage the game will degrade into Direwolfs + LRM + some Ecm lights. Everything else will be deprecated.
So, my conjecture is: If we want MWO to be playable and diverse, the current Gauss+PPC Meta needs to be adressed.

From a immersion PoV, slowing down the PPC would be ridiculous (as was slowing down the AC*). Physically that does not make any sense and moves MWO in the direction of some random shooter, just using Battletech names. At the same time, the energy balance makes the game somewhat more complicated but in an understandable way. It would be the task for the UI engineers to put this added complexity in some usable form. Then there is the idea of removing the "100% hit where you aim" mechanics in some way. I really like this, because this feature is what caused Battletech FPS to loose the game balance from TT.

I guess it finally boils down to the question what PGI wants to have:

• A somewhat balanced shooter, where so called "Pros" benefit from High-End hardware, Meta-exploiting and Macros to kill as much "lolnoobz" as possible
  
• A 'Mech simulation, where individual skills are offset by understanding of the game mechanics, positioning, teamplay and coordination.

If PGI wants the former, just play around with weapon stats how much you want, even invent new weapons, since it doesn't really matter. In the other case: Go for energy or (ideally) remove pinpoint.

[SixstringSamurai]

Great so now the dakka meta becomes unstoppable. That's cool because were already posting 1000-1200 damage in those. So please help me do more.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

If these changes are brought to day light, please throw Inner Sphere balance out the window. Clan will straight up be the stronger mech choice, and I will officially proclaim this game pay2win. (Up until now, I have defended PGI about clans not being p2w).

Sure, IS will move to 2x ppc 2x ac5. But that's still a smaller PP shot, and PP is all IS mechs got left in them. Yah I know clan mechs can do 2x ppc gauss combos, and 2x ppc 2x gauss... But they also got superior DoT. IS mechs only have PP dmg... Why nerf it into the ground?

The only reasoning at this point, that I can think of, is to force people to buy into clan mechs... Want to fix ppc and gauss, neft it's recycle time... So a brawler can rush snipers down... But let snipers snipe... Hell, I'm already seeing a lot of people switch to c-erLL since they are pretty darn good in terms of sniping, and damage with a good heat range.

[Reno Blade]

There are a lot of emotional responses, so lets analyze the options we have without any prejudice or emotion of fear (for nerfs).

Slower projectile:
Easy change, easy to learn, low impact to the gameplay, medium change of FLD alpha.
It's very similar to AC20 and AC10 speed and could shift the 2PPC/Gauss combo and 2PPC/2AC5 combo back to previous 2PPC/AC10 and 2PPC/AC20 combos.
PPC closer to AC20 and ERPPC closer to AC10 speed seems a good way to give both types a place.
Minor spread for PPC/Gauss combo mostly affecting Clans, because of their UAC burst if IS don't get AC burst aswell.
The effect of spreading FLD Alpha strike damage working for long range better than medium range with PPC/Gauss.


Longer Cooldown:
Easy change, easy to learn, minor impact to gameplay, no change to FLD alpha.
Heat is already a limiting factor for rate of fire.
Gameplay with only one weapon would lose dps but become a bit better for heat efficiency.
Longer cooldown for PPC and/or Gauss would not change the FLD Alpha.
The effect to lower the FLD potency and spread incomming damage is zero.


PPC/Gauss limit:
Difficult change, hard to learn, big impact to gameplay, big change to FLD alpha.
The System works very close to the 2-Gauss charge limit (to prevent 4-Gauss Alphas).
Gameplay for builds with only 2 of these weapons would NOT change at all.
Gameplay for affected builds would be similar to 4 PPC builds, space your shots.
The effect would be more spaced fire of 2Gauss then 2 PPC which would give targets enough time to mitigate damage (twisting, turning, cover) = working as intended.
Other builds like LL/Gauss would be used more often, but they already spread damage because of beam time which can be mitigated better than PPC fire = working as intended.


PPCs with more splash:
Easy change, easy to learn, medium impact to the game, big change to FLD alpha.
The CERPPC showed us something already about the splash.
People seem to hate to "waste" splash damage and ignore it, but it affects FLD alphas more than general use (like builds without big Alphas).
The splash damage acting like shooting a laser without beam duration, or like LBX/SRM with better accuracy.
Increasing the splash of all PPCs would make them less attractive for FLD which purpose is to fast core your target with the least amount of shots and highest amount of accuracy.
The effect would be that damage would be more spread at all ranges and would give skilled players more reason to use their skill with laser weapons to focus on one spot = working as intended.
This would affect FLD alphas and skilled players more than the average player (who can't keep hitting the same spot multiple times).


Convergence/Bloom:
Complicated change, average to learn, big impact to the game, big change to FLD alpha.
The often called best fix - Convergence or reticule bloom.
All weapon fire would spread to random directions similar to JJet shake does already depending on different factors like speed and heat or amount of weapons fired together.
Does remove the ability to shoot single spots for the skilled players.
The effect would be RNG and everywhere and would affect all weapons which would keep the PPCs still above Lasers while adding some spread = working as intended with (negative) side-effects.



Conclusion or TL;DR version:
If the goal is to give players the ability to survive and mitigate damage better by movement, twisting and cover then there needs to be some spacing of shots or impacts and most of the methods will have more or less spacing.

Projectile Speed would space the impacts by a small amount depending on range which only reduces long-ranged Alphas, but not medium/short range Alphas.
PPC/Gauss limit would be the most efficient way to space the shots of PPC/Gauss Alphas itself.
While more Splash would not space the shots or the impact, it would space the damge itself, but removes part of the skill to use the weapon with precision.
Cooldown or Convergence are limited in their effect towards this intended goal.


So overall, it seems the best way to go would be the implemented PPC/Gauss limit PLUS either PPC Splash or Projectile speed together with IS AC burst to prevent builds just going back to PPC/AC10 combos for the most effective FLD alphas.

[Sorbic]

I never run guass/PPC combo and while they can sometimes be annoying please do NOT hit PPC speed. At least not anywhere near that big of a nerf. Heck, I'd prefer a simple and small nerf to PPC/Guass damage if fired within a split second of each other. Or cause the two to spread instead of pinpoint. As far as reasoning for either, you can blame it on the electromagnetically accelerated slugs of the guass messing with the PPC in some way.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Reno Blade, on 30 July 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

There are a lot of emotional responses, so lets analyze the options we have without any prejudice or emotion of fear (for nerfs).

Wall ot hext from the guy who actually does not understand how DOES Gauss Rifle and PPC are working. Learn learn physic, school are made for it.

You must understand if these weapons will be nerfed next goes the "lazors", "lurms", etc.

Edited by Lala Satalin Deviluke, 30 July 2014 - 03:28 AM.

[Ens]

very good

[Hamish McPiton]

Stop nerfing anything. Period. If anything buff the AC's back and I'll counter those pesky Direwhales better.

[Greydron]

Just increase Gauss cooldown to 6 sec and PPCs to 8 sec. Done.

[Jacob Side]

Movement based cone fire is what we need. If you walk out into the view of a Dire Whale that's setup waiting you deserve the pinpoint pain.

[EvilCow]

Speed changes are going to further put at disadvantage players with higher ping (EU, Asia, AU, lots of customers...). PPCs are also meant to be lightning-like so I really dislike this solution.

Further decoupling them from Gauss is fine, I would also not allow a single PPC while Gauss is charging. Make the 2 weapons simply mutually exclusive, you have to fire them at different times and be done with it.

Edited by EvilCow, 30 July 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[Keeshu]

I did not read the other 15 pages of comments here (I'm a little busy atm). But I'd just like to say I like the first change where you can't fire PPC + gauss together. As it targets the individual PPC+Gauss mechanic that everyone hates.

While I don't mind PPCs being slowed down since it seems silly they are almost instant, I don't think that'd really solve the gauss+PPC problem. It's nerf it just slightly, and take a little more thought to do at least.

If you must do either of these 2, I prefer the first one, since it doesn't "nerf" all PPC users.

[BOWMANGR]

Hamish McPiton, on 30 July 2014 - 03:36 AM, said:

Stop nerfing anything. Period. If anything buff the AC's back and I'll counter those pesky Direwhales better.

Yeah, lets just decrease the TTK of mechs even further to 2 seconds of life expectancy. That would be fun.

Seriously, the "nerfing is universally bad" mentality is starting to get annoying. Don't you realize that if they keep buffing up everything, the game will become a one-click one-kill shooting gallery? It's basic game design. BASIC.

I don't say that PGI does everything perfect or that they don't do mistakes but they do apply basic game design philosophy at least.

There can be no game balance with only buffs. It's pretty simple maths actually. Balance can't be achieved by only pushing in one direction. Balance means to equalize two opposite forces and find the perfect point between them. Is this so difficult to "get"?

PPC+Gauss needs to be brought down.

As I said above a 0.25 sec charge up mechanic to PPCs will desync them from the Gauss {which has 0.5 sec charge up time}, along with a minor projectile speed difference between the two and possibly a Heat reduction to avoid over-nerfing other non-meta PPC builds. It's simple enough.

Edited by BOWMANGR, 30 July 2014 - 03:52 AM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

No. Horrible idea. 1 gauss and 2 ppcs firing simultaneously isn't even a problem. The only problem ATM is 2 gauss 2 ppcs on the direwolf since it is the sole platform (other than jager, cataphract) that can run it. If you diminish the strengths of snipers further you will just be crippling the game further. If you Nerf direct fire this much then I had better see lrms nerfed so you can't fire an lrm 20 and 2 15s at the same time since it takes "too much energy" (from a platform designed to be ABLE TO FIRE ALL OF ITS WEAPONS SIMULTANEOUSLY! WHY MUST YOU MAKE IDIOTIC NEW RULES? FOR THE HELL OF IT? I mean seriously pgi stop it with the Nerf bat it is getting so damn old. Just learn to balance heat and damage and ROF rather than hard nerfing the hell out of a weapon.) Look at current weapon stats, then compare them to the stats from early open beta. Ppcs had less heat, higher ROF and same with erppcs. But once their ROF was stepped down and heat rose and ghost heat tore down he effectiveness of ppc boats. This is mostly good as 60 damage alphas were a problem at 500+ meters but 35-45 damage alphas are very reasonable.
High alpha sniper mechs need to exist and always did in lore ( devastator, awesome, nightstar, Fafnir) you need to stop needing them into oblivion. I know you want to cater to younger, and terrible players to have a larger crowd but ruining the quality of this game even further would be disastrous. It is nearly unplayable ATM anyway because of lack of community warfare, constant crashing, slow servers, no real meta game. Stop just needing weapons and start actually improving the quality of a game that has/had huge potential, rather than needing weapons when you or other players get butt mad.

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 30 July 2014 - 03:59 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

As already suggested a thousand times:
Create the energy drain mechanic. With that, you can get rid of ghost-heat, limit high Alphas due to point-energy limitations and can still preserve the whole rest. This is good for new players as well as for skilled ones.

If someone at NGNG would just mention that in a podcast/interview with the Devs, maybe a bell or two start ringing.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Biggest problem with nerfing the PPC is you punish the energy only mechs more than you punish the guass/ppc mechs. Aweseomes, Catapults (J and K2), Battlemasters will all get the raw end, because they can't employ the variation other mechs can. I'm all for unlinking fire capabilities between PPC and Guass, but PPC nerfs hurt a lot of mechs that don't have other loadout choices.

Please, I just had my first ever 5 kill match in an 8Q, don't take it away from me so soon!

[Gowan]

I personally prefer Gauss charge to such a drastic PPC slowdown, since the slowdown would effectively turn PPCs into a short- to mid-range weapon, which seems silly.

However, as linked earlier, this is a much more elegant solution. Please, please give it a read -- we need a solid solution to cheese-of-the-month. Nostalgia won't float this game forever, and I'm not looking forward to the long wait for a different BT franchise game.