1258 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

VagGR, on 30 July 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

But this is an online game and it needs to be balanced and 50pp dmg is just too much. Hell even 30 is too much if you ask me no weapon or weapon combo should be doing more than 20 pinpoint dmg....

Well - back in closed beta before HSR i did drive a 2 ER-PPC 1 Gauss Atlas - all called me a mooron - of course - you had no chance to hit a fast moving target with your Peps....Convergence and Lag issues - you also had problems with hitting an awesome when using snap fire - and no Elite Perk "Pinpoint"

But well we got HSR - and this "good" mechanic was gone - and sudenly it was so easy to place 35 - or 60 dmg right on spot.
And here we are - instead of fixing that mechanic we will get hundreds of over complex solutions

[KGB GRU]

I'll take option number 1 please.

[3rdworld]

Also: Trying to switch the meta to lasers when too many hitscan weapons in a match crash the servers......


great success

Edited by 3rdworld, 30 July 2014 - 06:02 AM.

[The Great Unwashed]

If the problem that needs solving is a Twin gauss/erppc Direwolf, then give the Direwolf arms a few quirks; cannot mount Gauss and ERPPC at the same time. Add quirk to warhawk too for "balance"?. There should be a reason why the DWF-A arm was ever used if there is such a useful Prime arm.

The trouble remains that the DW has onmipods to have ballistic and/or energy slots everywhere. Removing the torso ballistic hardpoints and the above quirk helps as well, otherwise you can still build the twin GR/PPC combo.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 30 July 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[NeuroToxic]

VagGR, on 30 July 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

Every aspect of this game requires some skill..even LRMs...i guess a lot of people will try to defend the PPC/GR combo for different reasons. But there is one ugly truth we all need to see here. The direwhale and its firepower has the advantage of making average players look good. All you have to do is stay back and land 10 hits in 10mins, not that hard is it. 600dmg right there 500 of which pinpoint, which in turn will guarantee you a kill or two. and if you are a half decent player you can do a lot more than that.

But this is an online game and it needs to be balanced and 50pp dmg is just too much. Hell even 30 is too much if you ask me no weapon or weapon combo should be doing more than 20 pinpoint dmg....

Then if the Dire Whale is the problem (to which I agree to an extent), nerf / change the mech, not the weapon systems.

On a more facetious remark: waiting until the cursor circle turns red and pressing a button isn't exactly what I would call skill.

[kapusta11]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Doesn't address the main issue, which isn't PPC + Gauss, it's PPC and ANY OTHER PPFLD WEAPONS aside from the AC/2.

And then we are right back here when people start getting ganked by Dual PPC/AC/20 Combos or whatever the next iteration may be.

The problem is the ability to fire SEVERAL weapons SIMULTANEOUSLY and placing all that damage into SINGLE COMPONENT. PPCs are not a problem, If they were you would see only Stalkers. ANY FLD weapons that sync well with each other will be the meta but pinpoint FLD is not the cause itself, just a natural choice since the win formula is "dealing as high damage any combination of high damage per shot weapons in a poptart as small time window as possible". In TT you roll several dices in MWO - ONE

[Gyrok]

panicbutton, on 29 July 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

I literally just detailed this as a potential alternative to my team. I think that a 'mech would be built with the intention of firing all of its weapons systems at the same time. I hate putting "hard limit" on things e.g. "you CANT fire x, y, and z weapons at the same time". "Soft limits", e.g. "You could fire x, y, and z, but your movement speed will drop, you cant fire again for 'U' seconds, and/or you will take some damage." are acceptable, but whether or not ghost heat is a soft or hard limit is debatable since you probably can't shoot more than 5 ppcs without blowing yourself up. Implementing something akin to an "energy" system where you have capacitors/batteries/energy banks on your battlemech which charge and are discharged by firing weapons/jjs/whatever could potentially provide a solution to the number of "high alpha" ppcs+gauss builds and the removal of the sometimes controversial ghost heat bandage. Mechs which mount large numbers of lasers could be allowed to alpha several times before requiring a minute to build back up energy reserves. One might suspect that a fusion reactor wouldn't put out enough power continuously to support continuous alpha strikes from large quantities of energy driven weapons once whatever onboard power storage units are depleted.

There are a number of options for balance provided by a new system like this, and, as opposed to a hard limit, the number of weapons systems usable would be determined by pilot skill.

The one issue I see is that it will place a premium on ballistics as the only continuous DPS weapons not seriously hampered by heat or this energy mechanic. Which will put Dakka back on the radar big time for most groups. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, I like Dakka, but do we want to go through all the QQ about how OP such and such autocannon is this week?

[Malleus011]

The suggested solutions are both bad ideas.

The convoluted mechanism limiting fire of weapon combos is needlessly complicated. You're going to get there anyway, so if this is your preferred solution, just force all weapons in to the game to chain fire and remove group fire from the game.

Slowing down PPCs yet again is an equally bad solution for different reasons. Not every 'mech out there uses meta combinations. Some pilots actually try to use their new Awesome with the three PPC's God intended for them to have. You're nerfing them, plus any dual or single PPC 'mech (without gauss). Nobody is complaining about those, why hit them with the nerf bat?

For pity's sake, just do something about weapon convergence already. That's what all these band **** have tried and failed to fix.

[VagGR]

Karl Streiger, on 30 July 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Well - back in closed beta before HSR i did drive a 2 ER-PPC 1 Gauss Atlas - all called me a mooron - of course - you had no chance to hit a fast moving target with your Peps....Convergence and Lag issues - you also had problems with hitting an awesome when using snap fire - and no Elite Perk "Pinpoint"

But well we got HSR - and this "good" mechanic was gone - and sudenly it was so easy to place 35 - or 60 dmg right on spot.
And here we are - instead of fixing that mechanic we will get hundreds of over complex solutions

i know..you are right..but that was then. now we have to deal with the game in its current state. The solution complicated or not i dont really care as long as it solves the problem. And ghost heat even though i too think it was a bad idea it DID solve some problems. So in this case i dont see the speed reduction fix actually fixing the problem, PPC will work good with AC20 and PPC/GR combo will still be there (yeah if you see it coming you will try to torso twist but what if you dont see it? is this a solution?) and the PPC as a sinlge long range weapon will get nerfed. The complex mechanics on the other hand will delink PPC and GR without affecting anything else.

Edited by VagGR, 30 July 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

kapusta11, on 30 July 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

The problem is the ability to fire SEVERAL weapons SIMULTANEOUSLY and placing all that damage into SINGLE COMPONENT. PPCs are not a problem, If they were you would see only Stalkers. ANY FLD weapons that sync well with each other will be the meta but pinpoint FLD is not the cause itself, just a natural choice since the win formula is "dealing as high damage any combination of high damage per shot weapons in a poptart as small time window as possible". In TT you roll several dices in MWO - ONE

PPC's are a problem as long as we can alpha into one spot.

And as it stands PGI has offered nothing to make us thing they are planning to change the way the mechanics currently work in that regard.

[NoClass]

The two most hilarious suggestions so far:

1) Forced Chain fire
2) Randomized mechanic (something like pre HSR)

LOL

[Drogra]

Slower PPC = horrible idea. PPCs work by accelerating a particle to near light speed. A single particle. Its the speed that makes it hit so hard, not the size of the projectile (ie, Autocannons). While high damage, single hit, hit-scan weapons are a horrible idea, slowing a PPC down to auto-cannon speed breaks the idea of a weaponized particle accelerator.

You could always make them into a Particle Pulse Cannon (horrible idea, I know). Make it fire 5 projectiles over a 0.25-0.5 sec period, each dealing 2 (6 dealing 2.5 for clan ER) damage.
It worked for balancing clan UAC's, why not for PPC's. They retain their range and punch, but are much harder to pinpoint full damage into 1 spot.

Edit - Addendum: I use PPCs as my main weapon, but don't touch Gauss. Nerfing their range effectiveness will obliterate their function.

Edited by Drogra, 30 July 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

VigilanceHawkwind, on 30 July 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

The two most hilarious suggestions so far:

1) Forced Chain fire
2) Randomized mechanic (something like pre HSR)

LOL

Why are they hilarious?

Where is your fix for the PP FLD issues?

Hmm?

Don't have any?

[kapusta11]

VigilanceHawkwind, on 30 July 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

1) Forced Chain fire

It's what you had in TT, and you could fire weapons kinda "simultaneously" with Targeting Computer, it was it's role after all.

[NoClass]

Drogra, on 30 July 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Slower PPC = horrible idea. PPCs work by accelerating a particle to near light speed. A single particle. Its the speed that makes it hit so hard, not the size of the projectile (ie, Autocannons). While high damage, single hit, hit-scan weapons are a horrible idea, slowing a PPC down to auto-cannon speed breaks the idea of a weaponized particle accelerator.

You could always make them into a Particle Pulse Cannon (horrible idea, I know). Make it fire 5 projectiles over a 0.25-0.5 sec period, each dealing 2 (6 dealing 2.5 for clan ER) damage.
It worked for balancing clan UAC's, why not for PPC's. They retain their range and punch, but are much harder to pinpoint full damage into 1 spot.

The heat will make a burst fire PPC a less attractive option than regular lasers same as the other pulse lasers.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

VigilanceHawkwind, on 30 July 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

The heat will make a burst fire PPC a less attractive option than regular lasers same as the other pulse lasers.

PP FLD needs to be less attractive. That's the whole point.

It's SO attractive, that it's like putting a Super Model next to Melissa McCarthy.

It's been too attractive for over a year now.

[NoClass]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Why are they hilarious?

Where is your fix for the PP FLD issues?

Hmm?

Don't have any?

Forced chain fire demonstrates a huge lack of creativity.

Randomization is just nostalgia rearing its very ugly head.

This isn't a port of TT and lore inspired balance belongs on your book shelves. At best the IP is reflected in the aesthetics and context.

I don't think 30 points of PPFLD is obscene. Up the cool down rate of PPCs. Done. Thank you based Vigilance.

Edited by VigilanceHawkwind, 30 July 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

DO NOT OVERDO THE VELOCITY NERF, if thats the direction this goes.

Do it in small steps, test, profit.

A 50% drop in velocity is totally unnecessary, and overkill in standard PGI fashion.

When a 5/10/15% drop will achieve the same thing without totally screwing over the weapon's long range ability.

Edited by Mister D, 30 July 2014 - 06:32 AM.

[NeuroToxic]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

PP FLD needs to be less attractive. That's the whole point.

It's SO attractive, that it's like putting a Super Model next to Melissa McCarthy.

It's been too attractive for over a year now.

As it should be if you want to reward skill.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

VigilanceHawkwind, on 30 July 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Forced chain fire demonstrates a huge lack of creativity.

Randomization is just nostalgia rearing its very ugly head.

This isn't a port of TT and lore inspired balance belongs on your book shelves. At best the IP is reflected in the aesthetics and context.

I don't think 30 points of PPFLD is obscene. Up the cool down rate of PPCs. Done. Thank you based Vigilance.

Well 30 points of PPFLD is obviously a problem, since we've been nerfing/changing PPC's/Gauss/AC's in circles for well over a year now.

So that's why your overall premise is flawed.

As long as the hitbox system is in place as it currently is, it's a port of TT. End of story.