576 replies to this topic

[Phaeric Cyrh]

SethAbercromby, on 31 July 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Ah, the tumblr effect. Everyone that agrees with you knows what they are talking about and everyone that tries to convince you otherwise is ignorant, a fool or obviously lying. He's put the nail on the head with his analasys, but I'll provide you with a Tl;dr

Clanners have trouble when combat gets close and personal. A lot of IS 'Mechs are very comfortable with facehugging and putting pressure on enemy 'Mechs. That's where most clan builds start to fall apart due to high heat, long cycle times and lack of burst damage.

Just as clanners have to be aware of not getting too close into combat where the enemy can use those disadvantages against them, do IS 'Mechs have to conversely look for opprotunities to get close and apply pressure on 'Mechs that are not designed to handle it.

I edited the first part out immediately after posting because it added no value other than insult.. It's unfortunate you jumped on the reply so fast.

[SethAbercromby]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 31 July 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

I edited the first part out immediately after posting because it added no value other than insult.. It's unfortunate you jumped on the reply so fast.

It does however show the current mindset of how people treat things around here. The ones with rather radical opinions not shared by more expereienced, or open-minded part of the community flock together to create an echochamber in an attempt to drown out any attempts of reasoning. I would urge you to not fall into that kind of mindset. There is no harm in disagreements and arguments drawn from logical conclusuions, even if based on inaccurate facts, but this sort of behavior is toxic to a healthy debate where pros, cons and experiences can be shared and discussed.

[Noth]

Tharnes, on 31 July 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

LoL isn't locking new heroes behind massive paywalls though, imagine the outcry if broken(op) heroes were released for real-money only. While I also dislike the LoL-System, it can't be compared to the current buy of raw power the clans provide in MWO currently. Right now its cash for a massive advantage.

Also the new Arty-Meta kind is kind of the same as gold-ammo in WOT. All in all, if you invest a big chunk of money in MWO you get better stuff instantly - which is buying raw power.

I can tell you that the clans are some some overpowered boogieman that people think. Are they good? Yes they are. Should the IS versus clan mechs be 10 versus 12? Probably. Are these mechs going to be for cbills? Yes they are. I also heavily believe that you should not call something OP until you too have tried to play it. Clan mechs die just like IS mechs, they just have different strengths and weaknesses.

Also your complaint in the post I quoted was about balancing stuff people buy for money that it was vile, I simply pointed out that it is very very common in f2p games as any game in constant development will be balancing over time. so please try to stick to that instead of trying to spin the complaint off to something else when confronted with the truth of the world.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

SethAbercromby, on 31 July 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

It does however show the current mindset of how people treat things around here. The ones with rather radical opinions not shared by more expereienced, or open-minded part of the community flock together to create an echochamber in an attempt to drown out any attempts of reasoning. I would urge you to not fall into that kind of mindset. There is no harm in disagreements and arguments drawn from logical conclusuions, even if based on inaccurate facts, but this sort of behavior is toxic to a healthy debate where pros, cons and experiences can be shared and discussed.

FTR, you are epitomizing the dynamic you are talking about.. The difference is that I removed the most offensive part of my posting.

"The ones with rather radical opinions not shared by more expereienced, or open-minded part of the community flock together to create an echochamber in an attempt to drown out any attempts of reasoning."

Now what were you saying again? The sound of your hypocrisy is drawning out whatever other point you were trying to make.

There is new evidence here.. For the second time PGI set MM to allow for IS v Clan matches and for the second time the clans went through the IS like they were hot butter.. Then you have guys like IraqiWalker coming on here regurgitating the same old arguments of clan balance when we have live fire evidence which contradicts that opinion.

Now which one of us is being intractable?

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 31 July 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

PUGs are not a good source of intel on balancing, especially when the Clan 'Mechs are still locked away from most players, which results in the ones using them being very dedicated. Sure there are people that have no idea what they're doing with them, but the overall percantage is much smaller by a huge margin. I want data from high profile 12 v 12 teams full IS vs full Clan with rotation (Round 1: Team A: IS; Team B: Clan, Round 2: Team A: Clan; Team B: IS) performed on a large sacle. If Clans THEN prove to win more games by a noticable margin, THEN I'll beleive you. Until then, we're just poking into incomplete and lopsided data.

And what's that about me creating an echochamber? I've given you my opinion of where Clanners are strong and where they have their weaknesses. I've used the previous posters analysis because it matches almost perfectly what I've been expereiencing when fighting Clanners in my IS 'Mechs. In fact, the only Clan 'Mech I have is Kit Fox because I'm short on cash but wanted those Invasion colors. I'm gathering my info from the supposedly inferior side and am still performing quite well for my personal standards.

[Jiang Wei]

Mister Blastman, on 30 July 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Stupid nonsense.

If you take skill out of the equation, the clan mechs vs IS mechs win every time just based on simple math.

So basically, in order for the truce of tukkayid to happen, the IS pilots would have to be extremely highly skilled, and the clan pilots would have to be complete morons for the fight to be equal.

So put away your ego. I also get great scores agaisnt clan mechs while driving IS mechs. But it doesnt mean there is no balance issue.

[Chemie]

Kaden Kildares, on 30 July 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

I have to admit... it made me want to prove something on the IS side... too many newbies play IS only and you just can't CARRY that much.

The have ELO, weight class, faction, game mode....likely they just killed the ELO balance to get a match and top players get a bunch of trial mech players which just makes things even worse.

[Mister Blastman]

Jiang Wei, on 31 July 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

If you take skill out of the equation, the clan mechs vs IS mechs win every time just based on simple math.

So basically, in order for the truce of tukkayid to happen, the IS pilots would have to be extremely highly skilled, and the clan pilots would have to be complete morons for the fight to be equal.

So put away your ego. I also get great scores agaisnt clan mechs while driving IS mechs. But it doesnt mean there is no balance issue.

It isn't an ego, man. I regularly duel my clanmates in IS 'mechs and they take Clan ones, and win. There are advantages the IS has like front loaded damage and pinpoint, that the Clans have a much harder time taking advantage of (unless they run Timberwolves and Daishis).

[IraqiWalker]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 31 July 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

I have read the Clan weapon stats.. They do more damage, have more range, take up less space and weigh less than the IS counterparts. The engines have the weight of an XL but behave like a Standard engine for IS as far as damage. The fact it takes slots is meaningless since the weapons and heat sinks take fewer slots. The weapons causing more heat is compensated because the heat sinks work better,

If you want to go off pure specs and math alone, there is no doubt the clan tech is OP. The only argument people had was that real life scenarios in game are more nuanced than math on paper and that things balanced out in real fights.. Well, we've had a couple MM changes to allow IS v Clan matches and guess what? The math really does play out. The clan tech is more powerful than IS on paper AND in the game.

As far as all your matches going to IS, screenshots or it didn't happen. Everyone else I have talked to has experienced massive clan rolls, with the IS getting a couple kills if lucky.

Heat sinks work the same way.

No Clan weapon is superior to an IS weapon (save for maybe the Gauss Rifle)

Clan ballistics take fewer slots (if using UACs that can jam), weight less, and spray their damage all over the place with a good chance of missing a lot of it. Compared to IS ballistics (Hands down the undisputed kings of the battlefield), which are cooler, and deal their full damage with no chance to spread it. (hence why my Orion just roflstomps clan mechs).

Clan beam weapons have longer range, better weight and slot cost, however, they generate more heat, and take longer to deal their damage, meaning they have to expose their mechs for much longer to deal their damage. Couple with most of them having huge CT hitboxes, is a very dangerous thing at short range.

Clan LRMs are now the worst weapon in the game that isn't a flamer. There's no arguing with that.

Clan SSRMs have painful cool down timers (SSRM6s have a 7 second Cycle time, no other weapon has that long of a cycle time.)

Clan SRMs weight less, and deal less damage (with less impulse, unless I'm mistaken)

Basically each weapon has it's own trade offs and balances out in one way or another relative to the IS counterpart.

Clan engines (that everyone keeps talking about), are better than the IS XL counterpart, however at the same time they have a few problems:
1- They can't be swapped out. That alone is a HUGE handicap, that most people can't understand until they pilot a clan mech.

2- Most of them are either too big, or too small for the mech.

Couple that with hardwired structure slots that restrict what you can do, and hardwired DHS and JJs that you can't even choose to un-equip, and you realize that mech construction isn't as easy for clan mechs.

Now, on to the real life scenarios.

You've been playing this game since May. You've probably clocked a 1000 drops at best. Yeah, clan mechs will seem OP to you. You haven't been here long enough to figure out everything.

As for my matches going the way of IS, I have no reason to prove that to you, whether you like it or not, they happened.

While talking about IS Vs. Clan tests, the last test PGI did, the clans barely pulled ahead, and the biggest factor for them doing so, was the fact that trial mechs are IS only, so new players, and in fact, the newest players were on the IS side. Go read the numbers again in the thread they released (combat efficiency drops down to about 60% if the player is in a (C) mech)

While the clan mechs were usually piloted by more experienced pilots, who are more likely to perform well in them, due to experience with the game.

Right now, 1-on-1 clan vs. IS, as long as each side focuses on what they can do right, the chance for winning is 50/50

Jiang Wei, on 31 July 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

If you take skill out of the equation, the clan mechs vs IS mechs win every time just based on simple math.

Actually, the chance of winning is 50/50 for both sides. Especially if you take skill out of it. Idiots will always make mistakes that can turn into advantages.

On a more fact based note. If an IS mech and a clan mech stare each other down at 400 meters. Which one would win? That would be the clan mech, however, that's still balanced. Why? Because the clan mech excels at Damage over Time, and sustained fire.

Now, if both mechs are circling each other, and firing, which one would win. That would be the IS mech, and it's still balanced. Why? Because Damage over Time builds SUCK at tracking keeping damage on a location that is moving, and so they will spread, and waste a lot of damage.

Now, if both mechs used torso twisting and were very mobile, which one would win? That would be the IS mech again, and it's still balanced. Why? Because Torso twisting is not very efficient on clan mechs, they have low-slung arms, and can't shield their CTs well. (The T-Wolf just can't shield it's CT, regardless of what you might do). While IS mechs can shield their CTs a lot more efficiently (It's also why the Atlas will always beat the Daishi in close combat).

Now, if Both mechs decided to engage at 800+ meters, who would win? Clan would win, and it's still balanced. Why? Because clan mechs excel at range, and can deal more damage at long ranges.

So, in short:

IS mechs win brawls, and close range battles.
Clan mechs win long range battles.

I can't simplify it anymore than this. Seriously. Each faction has it's own flavor, and it's own thing that it can do well.

If you want to beat a clan mech at long range, then you need to have the skills to compensate for your disadvantage. If you want to beat IS mechs at short range, then you need to have the skills to compensate for those disadvantages as well.

[Roland]

IraqiWalker, on 31 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

No Clan weapon is superior to an IS weapon (save for maybe the Gauss Rifle)

The erml, srms, and erppc would like to have a word with you.

Also, MAYBE the clan Gauss? MAYBE? Explain a single advantage the is version has. I'll wait.

Also your assertion that the TWolf can't shield its center torso is laughably wrong.

[IraqiWalker]

Roland, on 31 July 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

The erml, srms, and erppc would like to have a word with you.

Also, MAYBE the clan Gauss? MAYBE? Explain a single advantage the is version has. I'll wait.

Also your assertion that the TWolf can't shield its center torso is laughably wrong.

I said maybe the clan gauss, because that's how I talk. Style of speech.

As for the other weapons you mentioned. ERML has better damage than IS ML, but for more heat, and burn time. To be honest, IS ML needs to get it's original heat back.

ERPPC has the splash damage, sure, however, THAT is the only PPC clan mechs get. Trust me, half of them if not more would switch to regular PPCs if given the choice.

As for SRMs:

IS SRMs deal more damage, while weighing a bit more (in the case of SRM6 also costing an extra slot)

The T-Wolf can't shield it's CT well, Oh yeah, it's got good torso twist, but couple that with firing lasers, and the fact that an IS mech can still smack the CT if they wait half a second before firing their alpha after counter-twisting, and the shield isn't really there.Plus, the arms are low. If it had the Stalker torso hitboxes, then maybe, however, it's more along the lines of a catapult torso, the CT hitbox is big, and the nose cone can't be shielded, at all.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Fanatic, on 31 July 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

and some more Screenshots

IS vs Clan (Tonnage added)

Spoiler

Bonus IS vs IS (Tonnage added)

Spoiler

hmmmm so you have taken into account that clans are much lighter with their equipement and thus perform anywhere between 10-35% better than the equivelent tonnage IS? the reality even with ton for ton matching the clans still have the equivelent advantage at a 12v12 level of having 2-4 more mechs worth at their disposal. essentially PGI are just finding out what we were already telling them half a year ago.

like i said back in dec-jan, 16 vs 10 or a 200 ton minimum difference in IS favour is a necessity because there's no way you'l nerf clan tech enough without breaking the equipment mechanics (stock configs etc). but oh no we'll see rediculous nerfs and invalidate more stuff with daftness like mix tech or something. hell we'll proberbly see new weapons modules after so many "they're worthless complaints" that alow you to make clan hardpoints on mechs.

you ain't seen meta yet...

[Davegt27]

The Clan is supposed to be over powered that's why they call it an invasion if they weren’t then they would be just immigrants

[MischiefSC]

Clan ERPPC is the exact same heat as an IS ERPPC. Exactly the same. It does have a 50% damage increase as splash and weighs a ton less and only 2 slots instead of 1 - that's a 33% size decrease, 50% damage increase, 15% weight decrease. Same heat, same cost in cbills.

Similar issues with Clan Gauss. Same damage, same range, same speed. 3 tons less weight, 1 less crit spot.

CERLL - 12% damage increase, same heat. 20% weight reduction, 50% crit space reduction, 30% range increase. 50% beam duration increase.
CERML - 40% damage increase, 25% heat increase, 66% range increase, same weight and crit spaces, 50% beam duration increase.

While the burn duration for lasers is significant, it's still only 1/2 of a second.
To put that into context I went into my weapon stats and divided my damage for the associated lasers by the number of HITS (not shots, but hits)

Large Lasers - average damage per hit of 5.78
CERlarge Las - average damage per hit of 6.45

Medium Lasers - average damage per hit 3.02
CER Med Lasers - average damage per hit 3.97

That's a hell of an easy tradeoff to justify. My increase in damage is way above my increase in heat, so the increase in burn time is only a relatively minor nerf to the otherwise significant bonuses.

Plus, of course, CERPPCs and Gauss are flat out no question superior without any negative or drawback.

CLB5X are good weapons. Way better than an LB10X. Clan UAC5s are 2 tons lighter and 2 less crit spaces. 3 shots instead of 1 but they're all within about 0.5 seconds of each other - you get more spread on small pulse lasers.

I could keep going. Clan weapons are flat out no question in all ways superior - the balance is IS flexibility in loadouts, engines, etc. How much of an advantage that is I'm not sure.

I don't think clans are OP. I think they are way more FUN, better designed and a better playing experience. I wished IS mechs worked the same, both in weapons and mech design. As close to it as possible. DOT is more fun all the way around in all ways for the in game experience. Seen some amazing and flat out epic Clan on Clan brawls; people pulling out a win with 9% of their mech left. I've won a match where everyone involved in the final battle was down to <20% of their mech left and it was a bloody, messy, gory brawl to the finish. Point blank slugging matches with chunks blown all over; huge fights that left 10 or 15 mechs strewn around the same area with the survivors limping off....

That stuff just didn't happen before. Pretty much never; now it's pretty common. That doesn't mean there are not balance issues to fix though.

The fundamental issue is that balancing Clan vs IS is going to be pretty untrustworthy and unreliable until everyone has had a chance to integrate Clan mechs into the population.

That'll be about February. So we've got another ~6 months of likely imbalance with the P2W specter hanging over it before we can even hope to get a clear, clean view of what it'll look like in the end. That sucks and is going to slowly get worse and worse for the player population as time passes. 6 months for consumers in the entertainment field should be measured like dog years.

It's going to be drama.

[IraqiWalker]

MischiefSC, on 31 July 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

Clan ERPPC is the exact same heat as an IS ERPPC. Exactly the same. It does have a 50% damage increase as splash and weighs a ton less and only 2 slots instead of 1 - that's a 33% size decrease, 50% damage increase, 15% weight decrease. Same heat, same cost in cbills.

Similar issues with Clan Gauss. Same damage, same range, same speed. 3 tons less weight, 1 less crit spot.

CERLL - 12% damage increase, same heat. 20% weight reduction, 50% crit space reduction, 30% range increase. 50% beam duration increase.
CERML - 40% damage increase, 25% heat increase, 66% range increase, same weight and crit spaces, 50% beam duration increase.

While the burn duration for lasers is significant, it's still only 1/2 of a second.
To put that into context I went into my weapon stats and divided my damage for the associated lasers by the number of HITS (not shots, but hits)

Large Lasers - average damage per hit of 5.78
CERlarge Las - average damage per hit of 6.45

Medium Lasers - average damage per hit 3.02
CER Med Lasers - average damage per hit 3.97

That's a hell of an easy tradeoff to justify. My increase in damage is way above my increase in heat, so the increase in burn time is only a relatively minor nerf to the otherwise significant bonuses.

Plus, of course, CERPPCs and Gauss are flat out no question superior without any negative or drawback.

CLB5X are good weapons. Way better than an LB10X. Clan UAC5s are 2 tons lighter and 2 less crit spaces. 3 shots instead of 1 but they're all within about 0.5 seconds of each other - you get more spread on small pulse lasers.

I could keep going. Clan weapons are flat out no question in all ways superior - the balance is IS flexibility in loadouts, engines, etc. How much of an advantage that is I'm not sure.

I don't think clans are OP. I think they are way more FUN, better designed and a better playing experience. I wished IS mechs worked the same, both in weapons and mech design. As close to it as possible. DOT is more fun all the way around in all ways for the in game experience. Seen some amazing and flat out epic Clan on Clan brawls; people pulling out a win with 9% of their mech left. I've won a match where everyone involved in the final battle was down to <20% of their mech left and it was a bloody, messy, gory brawl to the finish. Point blank slugging matches with chunks blown all over; huge fights that left 10 or 15 mechs strewn around the same area with the survivors limping off....

That stuff just didn't happen before. Pretty much never; now it's pretty common. That doesn't mean there are not balance issues to fix though.

The fundamental issue is that balancing Clan vs IS is going to be pretty untrustworthy and unreliable until everyone has had a chance to integrate Clan mechs into the population.

That'll be about February. So we've got another ~6 months of likely imbalance with the P2W specter hanging over it before we can even hope to get a clear, clean view of what it'll look like in the end. That sucks and is going to slowly get worse and worse for the player population as time passes. 6 months for consumers in the entertainment field should be measured like dog years.

It's going to be drama.

I agree about DoT being more fun. It increases time to kill, and makes a fight feel like a real fight. With bullets flying around, not one bullet, and -THUD-, you AC 20 just literally one-shot something, with that one bullet.

I wish they could slap the different manufacturer variants of ACs. The Pontiac 100 is the one I have my eye on. It's an AC 20 that fires 100 rounds, dealing a total of 20 damage. (all done within 10 seconds.

Clan weapons end up giving you more damage, but that comes from the fact that they spread so much of it all over the place.

The difference is that with an IS mech I will deal less damage than a clan mech, but since the damage goes where I want it, I can actually get a kill faster. While clan mechs end up getting the advantage of engaging from longer ranges.

You, Roland, and myself have done this dance before, in terms of weapon stats, and while I agree with some of what you see. I think the trade-offs in 90% of cases make the weapons balanced compared to IS weapons (except for the ML, the IS one right now needs to go back to original heat, and then you'll have a proper reason for choosing one over the other. I don't remember if they fixed IS SL yet or not.).

My one big gripe with clan weapon implementation is with the pulse lasers. The Clans didn't use pulse lasers, in fact they considered them near useless, because their main use was against infantry. A practice that the clans disliked, and did not perform. As such the Pulse lasers didn't get improved, not like regular lasers, which are mainly used against mechs.

The buff clan pulse lasers received in terms of burn time made them not useless compared to their counterparts, but it just rubbed me the wrong way. Clan mechs shouldn't have pulse lasers as brawl weapons. Their brawl weapons were regular lasers.

Clan gauss is superior to IS gauss, no question about it, that's why I mentioned it. However, I can't think of a proper way to put a trade off in it that makes sense. If you make it's explosion go through CASEII, you invalidate the existence of CASEII. If you give it a longer charge time (the most reasonable thing so far, since canonically speaking, clan mechs had energy issues), it might just gimp the weapon into absolute uselessness.

I would be very interested in hearing of ways to put some negative aspects into C-Gauss Rifle.

C-ERPPC much like the IS PPCs needs it's cycle time increased to 7 seconds. That should put some proper downsides with using ERPPCs in close range combat. For both IS, and clan.

[MischiefSC]

The idea of different manufacturers providing different stats is an idea I've floated before - it gives the opportunity for a huge increase in total weapons and builds. An IS AC20 that's like a lot like a Clan one, trading perhaps faster recycle time for a burst fire mechanic, etc.

The thing that balances Clan weapons though is that without the ability to tailor engine, Endo/FF and the like you end up with Clan mechs that are still mounting only 2 LL, 1 AC and some SRMs. Much like an Orion. It's faster but loses both side torsos and dies, vs IS standard engine. The Orion can mount a PPFLD AC20, 2 LLs and some SRMs for a brutal brawling loadout. My Orion runs like an Atlas Lite and does very well. What it lacks is the TWs ability to change loadouts to replace any one of literally a half dozen other IS mechs in my stable....

but isn't that the real point of Clan omnipods? Not the weapon loadout change so much as flexibility in what overall build concepts it can field. 1 Clan mech that can be an LRM boat or a laser boat or a sniper or whatever you need. Even with IS mechs greater engine flexibility you end up with similar restrictions - a laser boat IS mech is never going to be able to do LRM support.

Clan mechs don't have to grind terribad variants either.

Longer TTK is all the way around a more enjoyable game experience for everyone (except Joseph Mallen) and needs to be where the game goes.

Clan weapons are balanced because hardpoint/tonnage access by mech is limited. I can take my Banshee to the field with AC20, std, 2LPLs, 2MLs, ammo, decent speed for an Assault and a lot of pinpoint brawling firepower. Or I can go with 3xAC5/2xPPC or 3xPPC/1xGauss for the 'armor what armor' sniper design. I can put 50 tons of BOOM in an IS mech, which is like 40 tons of Clan weapons - but most Clan mechs can only mount 20-30 tons of weapons, except 1 that's so cumbersome it makes my Banshee look like a Spider.

Still needs work though. Clan mechs are more user friendly though, more new-player friendly. Stupidly flexible, atypically forgiving of mistakes. In six months we'll see some return on that.

We're still 6 months from any serious view of balance though. That's a whole other issue.

[IraqiWalker]

MischiefSC, on 31 July 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

The idea of different manufacturers providing different stats is an idea I've floated before - it gives the opportunity for a huge increase in total weapons and builds. An IS AC20 that's like a lot like a Clan one, trading perhaps faster recycle time for a burst fire mechanic, etc.

The thing that balances Clan weapons though is that without the ability to tailor engine, Endo/FF and the like you end up with Clan mechs that are still mounting only 2 LL, 1 AC and some SRMs. Much like an Orion. It's faster but loses both side torsos and dies, vs IS standard engine. The Orion can mount a PPFLD AC20, 2 LLs and some SRMs for a brutal brawling loadout. My Orion runs like an Atlas Lite and does very well. What it lacks is the TWs ability to change loadouts to replace any one of literally a half dozen other IS mechs in my stable....

but isn't that the real point of Clan omnipods? Not the weapon loadout change so much as flexibility in what overall build concepts it can field. 1 Clan mech that can be an LRM boat or a laser boat or a sniper or whatever you need. Even with IS mechs greater engine flexibility you end up with similar restrictions - a laser boat IS mech is never going to be able to do LRM support.

Clan mechs don't have to grind terribad variants either.

Longer TTK is all the way around a more enjoyable game experience for everyone (except Joseph Mallen) and needs to be where the game goes.

Clan weapons are balanced because hardpoint/tonnage access by mech is limited. I can take my Banshee to the field with AC20, std, 2LPLs, 2MLs, ammo, decent speed for an Assault and a lot of pinpoint brawling firepower. Or I can go with 3xAC5/2xPPC or 3xPPC/1xGauss for the 'armor what armor' sniper design. I can put 50 tons of BOOM in an IS mech, which is like 40 tons of Clan weapons - but most Clan mechs can only mount 20-30 tons of weapons, except 1 that's so cumbersome it makes my Banshee look like a Spider.

Still needs work though. Clan mechs are more user friendly though, more new-player friendly. Stupidly flexible, atypically forgiving of mistakes. In six months we'll see some return on that.

We're still 6 months from any serious view of balance though. That's a whole other issue.

I have to say. I pretty much enjoyed the majority of this post while reading it.

I want different manufacturer variants for my lore-fix, but in all honesty, it would break the balance right now. As it stands IS mechs have great PP FLD with their ballistics. If they lose that and their guns become DoT, we will get a proper and more accurate re-enactment of Operation Revival. Culminating with the entire player base playing only clan mechs.

I also run my Orion as an Atlas lite btw. (Just got my hands on a second one when I bought the Protector a couple of days ago).

[Scratx]

IraqiWalker, on 31 July 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

My one big gripe with clan weapon implementation is with the pulse lasers. The Clans didn't use pulse lasers, in fact they considered them near useless, because their main use was against infantry. A practice that the clans disliked, and did not perform. As such the Pulse lasers didn't get improved, not like regular lasers, which are mainly used against mechs.

The buff clan pulse lasers received in terms of burn time made them not useless compared to their counterparts, but it just rubbed me the wrong way. Clan mechs shouldn't have pulse lasers as brawl weapons. Their brawl weapons were regular lasers.

The Vapor Eagle ( http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Goshawk ) would like to have a word with you.

As well as the Timberwolf Prime, A and B. Warhawk C. And I could keep going, there's plenty of configs that have pulse lasers.

Clan pulses in TT have twice the range IS pulses do and do 1 more damage on top.

I have some doubts about your (emphasized) statements... and by the way, IIRC only the micro and small pulse lasers get the Anti-Infantry mod. The Medium and Large Pulses aren't anti-infantry.

[Alex Warden]

Kell Commander, on 31 July 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Well, when you have an entire team of superior clan mechs fighting with what should be IS tactics, this shouldn't surprise anyone.

that´s where canon and player reality collide... but hey, was i the only one who predicted that all the time while everybody cried about "PGI is gonna nerf clans t oblivion" ?

Edited by Alex Warden, 31 July 2014 - 10:28 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Well, If I wanted to really f.ck the claners, I would take a team with 3 raven 3-L, 3 Cicada 3-M and 3 Atlas DD-C. If pure IS then take top heavies to join the fun.

edit: I would prefer that load out with hybrid lrms on my dd-c and some narc with my ravens.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 31 July 2014 - 10:54 PM.