367 replies to this topic

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 08 August 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

Do you feel MWO is perfect?

Easy answer, No.

Are you building white castles in the sky?

[Lukoi Banacek]

ENS Puskin, on 08 August 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Oh man but did i say that i want longer duration? No! I was only responding to the bitching about the duration becuase some players want too much. Wtf? You missed my point so i would like to end our senseless discussion becuase i expect another misunderstanding. Agree?

You agreed with longer duration, agreed? That's ultimately my point.

No one asked for the already longer duration to be lowered. We asked for the NEWLY increased duration of 2 seconds to be reverted back to the original 1.5s duration which is already longer.

So, people are not necessarily "bitching" they are illustrating the ****** game design PGI chose to use to nerf the weapon further.

Btw, PGI does not need you to defend their ideas, so maybe you quit saying people are bitching when you demonstrate you did not then understand the game's actual mechanics and then maybe we'll stop having misunderstandings eh?

Agreed?

[Daehoth]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

I said I considered MWO a WIP. And as far as balance goes the objective of reaching an acceptable point yes I do have faith that PGI can achieve this. Prior to the introduction of clan tech, the community was quite vocal about how close the balancing of things were coming to fruition, hence why I retain this faith. I dont expect it to happen overnight, and like I said I can be sympathetic to the gaming development now since we dont yet have the purposeful environment of CW where the relevancy of the value of tech is more apparent and a part of the objectives of the game. That's my deadline and I also am not obsessed with attaining perfection here either which would also be an unrealistic goal. I'm happy in that, I can be content with that, I can and will endeveour to enjoy playing and supporting MWO despite being aware of things that might need tweaking here and there, I will adapt and have fun. I play many styles and own lots of tech so I guess it is easier for me to personally adjust however, but that shouldnt mean that balance can induce nerfs or buffs to any of the tech. I'm in it for the long haul and personally value the franchise. And all the negativity in the world wont find solutions any the faster, it will only end up hampering things. I'm sorry if you don't like my pragmatism here, but I'm also a player of this game that recognises it is a WIP also, like I said. I just prefer to work with PGI. And I certainly don't invent fallacies about the state of things cause I'm a dissaffected player.

I respect what you say and to a certain extent I feel the same way. I've supported MWO for a very long time as well. But enough is enough when one has to sit back, take stock and realise whatever PGI is currently doing is not working. They have taken too long, delivered too little, progressed way too slowly, constantly 'fixed' things that don't need fixing, while ignoring the long term vision and goal of this game.

Other more COMPLEX games are progressing at a much faster pace in a SHORTER time period. PGI needs new thinkers and new implementers. They need a new system, they need to get organised. They just need a new approach. The rest of us can see the writing on the wall, and we all hate to see MWO go down because of incompetence or even ego.

Ps. half typing, half getting my 20 kills for free mech bay.

Edited by Daehoth, 08 August 2014 - 10:08 PM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Easy answer, No.

Are you building white castles in the sky?

then you realize it needs improvement in some areas

Now do you acknowledge that PGI is comprised of people and as people they make mistakes just like every other person walking this planet?

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 08 August 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

PPCs are not balanced. BOATED and PPCS combined with Gauss is now balanced
Single PPC
PPC+AC10
PPC+AC20
are NOT balanced. That's what happens when you try to balance an issue that involves boating and multiple loadouts by nerfing a single weapon in the equation.

PPD and FLD are a major issue. Too bad PGI has ignored any and all suggestions on how to fix that for 3 years

PPCs are pretty well balanced. They're not flat out better than LLs for single carry. They're AC10s for energy hardpoints. Lighter but hotter, slower rate of fire. I find them pretty well balanced now - it's reasonably tempting and viable to take lasers + ACs both for range and brawling.

Again - don't take it as PGI ignoring all suggestions for 3 years. We make a lot of terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE suggestions. I saw a suggestion for adding in mechs from various other anime instead of just BT from someone saying BT isn't that interesting anyway. They were serious.

PPFLD needs fixed. It pretty much has to be. That or convergence. Preferably both.

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 08 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

then you realize it needs improvement in some areas

Now do you acknowledge that PGI is comprised of people and as people they make mistakes just like every other person walking this planet?

Another easy answer yes.

Do you not make mistakes yourself. Could you accept you might also then be in error?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Another easy answer yes.

Do you not make mistakes yourself. Could you accept you might also then be in error?

Not possible, everyone knows that PGI is only capable of making mistakes:)

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

PPCs are pretty well balanced. They're not flat out better than LLs for single carry. They're AC10s for energy hardpoints. Lighter but hotter, slower rate of fire. I find them pretty well balanced now - it's reasonably tempting and viable to take lasers + ACs both for range and brawling.

Again - don't take it as PGI ignoring all suggestions for 3 years. We make a lot of terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE suggestions. I saw a suggestion for adding in mechs from various other anime instead of just BT from someone saying BT isn't that interesting anyway. They were serious.

PPFLD needs fixed. It pretty much has to be. That or convergence. Preferably both.

I understand that, I'm not referring to "suggestions" like "this sucks, fix it!" or "this sucks remove it!"

There are several well thought out ideas with plenty of support that WOULD work. They were expressed in very detailed posts in that feedback thread. They were good ideas that WOULD fix the FLD and PPD issues. They WERE ignored. They've been ignored for 3 years.
Homeless Bill's idea
Mine
Iraqi's
and a few others (sorry can't remember specific names)

My convergence idea WOULD solve the FLD and PPD without removing PPD and FLD and without adding in a bunch of complicated and disliked nerfs and mechanics

[Daehoth]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Another easy answer yes.

Do you not make mistakes yourself. Could you accept you might also then be in error?

Everyone mistakes...but ask yourself...does PGI admit to them?
You just said so yourself...Every ..ONE makes mistakes...PGI aren't exempted.....



The fact of the matter is this. PGI is making this game for us, the players.
When a large portion of the community, the players are saying the game is now less fun than it was before.....

Shouldn't PGI be listening to the very people they are making this game for, instead of embarking on their self professed vision that hasn't been explained clearly even up till now.

The ...game... is ....less...fun...now...than...it .....was....before......
period

Edited by Daehoth, 08 August 2014 - 10:21 PM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Another easy answer yes.

Do you not make mistakes yourself. Could you accept you might also then be in error?

then you acknowledge that they can improve as well

So why can you not acknowledge that maybe JUST maybe after 3 years of trying and failing in this particular area, and ignoring several suggestions from the community that it's time to do something else.

They've tried for 3 years to fix that issue. They've tried to fix it by adding
nerfs
complex trigger mechanics
ghost heat
and a few other "fixes" over the years

NONE OF IT HAS WORKED
that's a factual statement and there's no way to spin that. They made a mistake in this regard and it needs to be fixed if they truly want some balance. Now instead of trying to dismiss well thought out and detailed ideas that show how it would fix the FLD and PPD problems in favor of "PGI will get it" (nevermind they haven't "gotten it" in 3 years) why not actualyl participate in the discussions of HOW to refine those ideas that WOULD fix the problem?

Or is that asking too much form the "PGI faithful" type crowd?

BLOOD WOLF, on 08 August 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Not possible, everyone knows that PGI is only capable of making mistakes:)

feel free to keep offering nothing but sarcastic comments to what is, otherwise, a meaningful discussion on how to improve the game.

[Noesis]

Like I said, I accept its a WIP. Thats my viewpoint. I do and have presented various suggestions aswell as opinions about choice, directives and offered dialouge to comments and discussion.

I would say that the systems have created a playable version of MWO that I can accept and have faith that a notion of balance will be reached with MWO.

So I would say that the systems that have been implemented have worked to a degree and is that balance is still a WIP. That is my opinion on the matter.

"NONE OF IT HAS WORKED" is again another Sandpit fallacy, as these systems have to some level removed some problematic conditions with gaming balance and the use of tech. So it is not a claimable fact.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Always going to be a lot of vitriol in outright nerfing things. It's a direct hit to a lot of people's effectiveness.

I think I'm in favor of the bigger picture, though, which seems to be attacking the long-range peek-a-boo standoff game that came in with the Clans. All these changes make it harder to fight at extreme range. More exposure, more difficult aim. Gives brawlers and fast-movers more ability to close range. I think any change that improves the ability of players to maneuver on the field is overall better for the game.

Clan ER lasers are just too good for the range they have. You're not supposed to be afraid to expose yourself at 1000m because you'll get too torn up trying to get to cover. The ER ML is still rather too good, but it seems they're working on reducing combat ranges first. You'll notice the complaints about a PPC AC/10 or AC/20 meta were answered with what essentially a blessing. They require people to get closer. Closer is OK.

It's going to hurt the IS ERPPC because it was already hard justifying the extra heat for the range. Probably more than it deserves. I shed no tears for the Clan PPC. I have a Stormcrow. Playing both sides shows that clan ranged fire is hax for the damage it does.

[Daehoth]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

Like I said, I accept its a WIP. Thats my viewpoint. I do and have presented various suggestions aswell as opinions about choice, directives and offered dialouge to comments and discussion. I would say that the systems have created a playable version of MWO that I can accept and have faith that a notion of balance will be reached with MWO. So I would say that the systems that have been implemented have worked to a degree and is that balance is still a WIP. That is my opinion on the matter. "NONE OF IT HAS WORKED" is again another Sandpit fallacy, as these systems have to some level removed some problematic conditions with gaming balance and the use of tech. So it is not a claimable fact.

Noesis,
I am really sorry, and I mean no offense really..

But just how much is PGI paying you? Cuz I truly don't believe an objective neutral player, a founder at that, could feel this way after so many years of supporting their 'plan' when they have fallen so so so short.

Edited by Daehoth, 08 August 2014 - 10:34 PM.

[EvilCow]

Since you asked, feedback:

Undo the longer burn time putting it back to 1.5sec and work on the REAL issue of this weapon, the unreal range, cutting it to 800mt could be a good start.

In general you could consider reduce the extreme range multiplier for ALL lasers from 2x to 1.8x (remember, small steps).

PPCs should be restored to their previous speed, simply de-sync any group whose pinpoint damage exceeds 30 points.
For example:
1Gauss+1PPC = OK
1Gauss+2PPC = 2PPC at time zero and 1Gauss at time +1sec
2Gauss = OK
3PPC = OK (with Ghost Heat...)
2Gauss + AC5 = 2GR at time zero and AC5 at time +1sec
etc

It would be ONE general rule for all possible combinations. Frankly working just on speeds looks like a cheap shortcut. You would have no more of 30 points of pinpoint damage unless the target is so stupid to stand still and take the 2nd wave, you can't fix stupid anyway.

[Noesis]

Daehoth, on 08 August 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

I am really sorry, and I mean no offense really..

But just how much is PGI paying you?

I have to admit I did lol.

Value the game how you like, I'm not twisting your arm to pay.

But also at least accept that I'm not going to accept ad hominen as a valid way to change my opinions on the matter either.

[Daehoth]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

I have to admit I did lol.

Value the game how you like, I'm not twisting your arm to pay.

But also at least accept that I'm not going to accept ad hominen as a valid way to change my opinions on the matter either.

Erm...i think you've misread.

[Noesis]

Daehoth, on 08 August 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Erm...i think you've misread.

Wasnt really directed at your specific comment. More generically a concern about the BS trying to be used to suggest I should think in an alternative way than I do.

[Jonathan Paine]

First of all, kudos for undoing the least thoughtful part of the current nerf storm. Well done in ridding us of the "2 weapon ghost heat"!

However, we are back to the usual problem - pinpoint alpha strikes with high damage - and the usual "solution", which is slapping a sloppy patch on the most easily recognizable combo.

But fine, here is a potential PPC solution that does not involve fixing pinpoint:
Increase PPC projectile speed to ludicrous levels 2500+
Add a 0.1 second shot delay (trust me, you will easily learn to aim around this)
- Other weapons cannot be fired or charged while the PPC is firing
Add a 0.5 second delay until other weapons come online.

This lets the PPC be an amazing energy weapon, which cannot be combined at all with other weapons. Whether you fire 1, 2 ,3 or more PPC's does not matter - as long as you fire them at the same time. The old ghostheat should limit abuse.

(and if you really need to limit range, give the PPC 1.5 range multiplier instead of 2.0)

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 08 August 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

"NONE OF IT HAS WORKED" is again another Sandpit fallacy, as these systems have to some level removed some problematic conditions with gaming balance and the use of tech. So it is not a claimable fact.

ok we're done
it's apparent you're not interested in any discussion to help improve the game. You refuse to or can't be impartial. If any "fix" they had implemented in the past 3 years had worked, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

So does anyone else want to discuss how to fix PPD and FLD?

I honestly feel the slowed convergence would fix all of that and lead to a better balance of weapons across the board. The distinction between lasers and ACs becomes a little more distinct, PPD is either spread out without losing PPD OR the attacker must expose themselves to return fire for an extended period to get to that perfect convergence, it completely removes high point quick shot alpha strikes. Above all else it's not complicated. MWO already accounts for this because we have crosshairs in the first place so it wouldn't require building a mechanic from the ground up

We'd be looking at adding a couple of crosshairs that would track. That's it. They can be adjusted for each weapon as previously stated so there are more perks to smaller bore weapons and diverse loadouts.

[Jabilo]

Thanks for the update

I thought the nerf was too much and you are making the right decision.

Personally a heat increase and changing the ghost heat multiplier would have been enough and I still do not agree with the beam duration.

However I am sorry for the way that a small minority of the community chose to give their feedback in a way that was rude and contained personal attacks, especially as we know some of these guys are apparantly adults.

I know you guys work hard with the resources you have and do what you feel is right for the game.

/salute