367 replies to this topic

[Fleeb the Mad]

Bulletsponge0, on 09 August 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Haven't read the entire thread, but I'm surprised nobody has hit on the real reason why the PPC speeds were reduced.

In Paul's pre-patch post, he talks at length about a change in the firing mechanics....then as an after thought he throws out that they might also consider lowering PPC speeds

Well, isnt it obvious why they went woth the speed change?

Doing what he detailed would require actual changes to the code...while lowering the PPC speed is simply a text editor

Paul went with the easy route because they couldn't figure out how to actually code the other solution that he putlined

Asking questions in the right direction, however we already know that the firing delay code exists. The specific PPC + Gauss linked firing code is already written and in the current build, it's just not being used. So following along this line of thought, probably what we should ask instead is:

Why was this change preferred with both options on the table?

There is some logic in it. The firing code would have been the most effective way to deal with PPC+Gauss, but I think that was only one facet of a bigger problem with PPCs. They are the perfect combo weapon for any ballistic option, not just gauss. It's simply most effective to split your payload into half energy and half ballistic to use the dissipation of your free engine heat sinks to save on tonnage. Going to extremes with all energy or all ballistics becomes more limited due to hardpoints, crits for heat sinks and available tonnage.

A specific patch to deal with gauss + PPC wouldn't really change much because of PPC + AC/5. There's also the not insignificant issue that the majority of the players in the game don't bother with the forums. Introducing a fire limiting mechanic would be infuriating for a lot of players who didn't understand or read up on the reasoning or the patch notes. Even if this PPC change doesn't pan out, I can't blame them for trying it first.

If it brings battles into closer range it'll be a win for everybody, because stagnant cover sniping is extremely boring. If these changes stick it seems like the IS ER PPC is going to need some help though. If it's not effective beyond the range of the ER Large laser despite having more range on paper I don't see why anyone would use them. I am, however, grateful that it will make ECM sniper lights have to work a bit harder.

[Mechteric]

Thanks for repealing the extra ghost heat portion of the nerf!

[Haji1096]

Get rid of HSR, implement convergence.

/thread

[Mechteric]

Haji1096, on 09 August 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Get rid of HSR, implement convergence.

/thread

Wait, I understand if you'd like to see convergence back in, but do you even remember what pre-HSR was like? I do, and the amount of lead for lag compensation was horrendously bad.

</thread>
<thread>

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 09 August 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[Lootee]

CapperDeluxe, on 09 August 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Wait, I understand if you'd like to see convergence back in, but do you even remember what pre-HSR was like? I do, and the amount of lead for lag compensation was horrendously bad.

Yeah, invincible Ravens for 6 months. No thanks. If HSR ever goes I'm out the door.

[Rasc4l]

Happy to see the clan large laser ghost heat unnerfed.

Hopefully you do realize with ghost heat that the more you rely on balancing weapons using ghost heat, the more it indicates that basic mechanics of the game are broken.

If ghost heat is really here to stay, would you at least make it chassis specific? Still waiting on the 3PPC Awesome and Swayback working properly. And no, building ADDITIONAL mechanics on top of ghost heat like Awesome's energy weapon bonus or the CT having Blessed Plate Mail +3 IS NOT THE SAME as having the real 3PPC Awesome working Really as intended.

[Haji1096]

CapperDeluxe, on 09 August 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Wait, I understand if you'd like to see convergence back in, but do you even remember what pre-HSR was like? I do, and the amount of lead for lag compensation was horrendously bad.

</thread>
<thread>

I was under the impression that convergence couldn't be implemented because of HSR. I could be mistaken. Either that or it requires too many resources server side.

[MechB Kotare]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

2 seconds is too long of a beam.

It's OK for a giant, armored, Direwolf, who probably can't get back into cover in 2s anyway.


For the lights and mediums who rely on poke sniping, so they don't get insta-cored, 2s is very impractical.


I'd much rather see the following changes to cERLLAS

Reduce optimal max range to 810m (20% improved over IS ER LLAS) [NERF]
Reduce beam duration to 1.3s (30% longer than IS ER LLAS) [BUFF]
Reduce Damage to 10 not sure why this was set to 11.2 to begin with. [NERF]
Increase heat to 9.5 [NERF]

Now it's a bit hotter, a bit less damage/heat efficient. Range is not as long, but beam is faster.


This would overall be a much better balanced weapon IMO.

This.

Perfect cERLL balance formula...

It doesnt have to be reduced to 1.3s even. 1.5s was enough. 2s is massive overkill. Learn to balance noobs.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 09 August 2014 - 01:20 PM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Well, if you change the ER-LL, then you have to adapt the weapons standing beside it too, meaning the LPL, and the ER-PPC.

I've said it maybe 6 times now, so this is number 7:

C-ER-LL:
tons: 4
slots: 1
heat: 9
damage: 10.5
duration: 1.5 s
reload-time: 3.00 s

dps: 2.33
hps: 2
range: 700m

Large Pulse Laser:
tone: 6
slots: 2
damage: 11.5
heat:10
duration: 1.25 s
reload time: 3s

dps: 2.7
hps: 2,35
range: 450m

ER-PPC:
tons: 6
slots: 2
damage: 15 (10 + 2*2.5)
heat: 15
reload-time: 7.5 s

dps: 2
hps: 2
range: 900m
speed: 1300 m/s

To de-couple high pinpoint-weapons, you just build a 0.5 s hardcodet fixed delay between any weapon system that counts as high energy pinpoint weapon for a maximum number of 2. Meaning: You can only fire 2 high pinpoint weapons at a time and have a delay of 0.5s to the next burst.

Weapons counting towards it are:
IS-AC/20
Gauss
PPC
ER-PPC
LB-20X

Done.

[n r g]

MechB Kotare, on 09 August 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

This.

Perfect cERLL balance formula...

It doesnt have to be reduced to 1.3s even. 1.5s was enough. 2s is massive overkill. Learn to balance noobs.

yes YES YES!

Ultimatum X, good job bro!

[SmellTheGlove]

Quote

Additional Note: It has come to my attention that a few players have left particularly strong feedback opinions without actually playing any matches since this patch or hot-fix.

If you are one of these players, now would be an excellent opportunity to remove your feedback from this thread, or update it after playing a few matches. This thread and sub-forum are intended to obtain live feedback from those who had played with the changes presented.

In the event that we find a member of the Community is persistently leaving Patch Feedback without actually trying the Live version, we will be suspending or removing the posting privileges of that member. Please keep in mind the purpose of Patch Feedback is to relay your real experiences with bugs, new features and balance to both the Dev team and QA: While we understand players may have personal opinions still regarding those changes whether or not they have tried them yet, we also note that this sub-forum and it's threads have a more specific purpose to help us determine live issues, and not theoretical ones which are already discussed in other sub-forums.

Thanks for your understanding.

You should also note that many of us have multiple accounts, but your track record of being a decent person, much less a good CM is "less than stellar" and has left many of us weary and we don't trust that we can always give honest feedback without you (and yes, you personally) over reacting and abusing your "moderation" abilities, so we use may use an alternate account to express things like we will celebrate when you are gone and MWO will be better off without you.

TL;DR lots of people use alts to post negative criticism because of shady "moderation" tactics

Edited by SmellTheGlove, 09 August 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[Sandpit]

PPCs are long range weapons

this speed nerf hampered their long range abilities.
so now you have a long range weapon that isn't effective at long range fighting AND can't fire at anythign under 90 meters. It's a horrible "balance" for long range PPCs

[Ultimax]

Shevchen, on 09 August 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Well, if you change the ER-LL, then you have to adapt the weapons standing beside it too, meaning the LPL, and the ER-PPC.

A few steps ahead of you.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 August 2014 - 07:20 PM.

[Veneroso]

I haven't played with a mech with more than one CERLL yet, but on my adder, ADR-D, with 1 CERLL, the 2 second fire time seems painfully long to be exposed in a light mech.

Perhaps it would be possible to reduce this if you're only using 1 or if you're in a light mech? Thanks.

[Sandslice]

Shevchen, on 09 August 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Well, if you change the ER-LL, then you have to adapt the weapons standing beside it too, meaning the LPL, and the ER-PPC.

Actually, you needn't touch the LPL in order to make a suitable nerf to ERLL.

The crux of the matter is that the ERPPC and ER Large Lasers (both IS and Clan) are out of proportion to the rest of the weapons. IS ERLL should have 570 range, ERPPC 690, and cERLL 750 - their tabletop ranges. Instead they're fixed at 50% over their standard versions...

...and cERLL is given the same proportional advantage over IS ERLL that it enjoys in TT, which is why it's 890 now.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

A few steps ahead of you.

This is awesome. Support this 110%.

The 2 second beam duration is bad. It needs to go. Even 1.5 is fine compared to 2.0.

A second 50% bump on top of the original 50% increase in beam duration moves beyond 'balancing' and into 'just silly'.

It would literally be akin to taking PPC speed down to 450 m/s.I get the need for the nerf and I absolutely agree -

That's just the wrong way to do it.

Reduce CERLL beam duration, reduce its range and damage, leave the heat increase. That would be good and balanced and useful. I'm getting twitchy that the response to the recognition of Clans being OPed (which they absolutely are overall) is going to be to make most of their weapons effectively useless most the time. That's not good balancing, that's bad balancing.

[Catastrophyk]

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

I'm actually very confused... I bought clan mechs, supporting the developers, thinking (should have known better, since IS mechs have interchangable parts) that oh ya, good Mech Warrior game and clan tech is coming!!!! but i should have realized. D: wish i could get a refund on my stupid excited purchase. Paid money to get clan tech asap, but you want to balance it with IS, Seriously?!? Wow, I understand you want people to play the game, but MechWarrior is kinda "Niche" anyway, and you think that making IS and Clan balanced is okay?!? Clan mechs are WAY BETTER than IS mechs, THAT WAS THE POINT! but ya balance them..... Clan is being released for Cbills eventually. All you young bucks who got participation trophys in little league need to quit your crying, man up, realize IS mechs speed and tactics are actually better than slow moving targets with big guns. but ya, charge money for "clan tech early release" then make it the same as inner sphere.... Good business move guys. : /

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

A few steps ahead of you.

Well, its all interchangable. 500m or 450m does not make that much of a difference, but in all honesty, I could also see 12 as damage for the LPL. The thing is, that pulse lasers are severely underused, because they do not show the benefit over their increased tonnage/slots. I could take two medium lasers and deal 14 damage for 10 heat at a range I think is optimal. And I still save 4 tons. But the medium lasers are fine.

So, how do we buff the LPL in a good way then? Decreased duration in the ranges of 0.7 s - 1.3 s is always usable in nearly any situation because mechs are slowpokes. They cannot show themselves for 0.1 s and be back in cover. So the advantage of having a beam duration of for example 0.25s over 0.5s is much smaller, than having a beam duration of 0.5 s over 1 s (same factor). Somewhere in the realms of 1s is the sweet spot.

I want the pulses to be useful and also like to compare them to the standard lasers one class lower, in this case, the medium laser. Have the LPL be cooler than 2 medium lasers, deal about the same damage, having about the same range would be a start (linear balanced), meaning:

Large-Pulse-Laser made out of two medium lasers (linear)
2-tons
2-slots
damage: 14
heat: 10
range: 450m
duration: 1.3 s

But hey, we have 6 tons instead of 2. So... what do we do?

Well, first, a single Pulse laser saves you an energy hardpoint - but for Clan mechs, this advantage becomes somewhat very small. I would not give more than half a ton for that advantage.
Next is, we reduce the heat from 10 to 8, while upping the damage from 14 to 15. That could be... another ton op 1.5. We are on 4 now. Still missing 2 tons. Upping the range from 450m to 600 - well, we are already outside the optimal engagement range with 450m, so the advantage of having 600m for a brawl weapon is really small. It also misses the synergy with other brawl-weapons then, negating somewhat the advantage of having a higher range. But for the sake of getting it balanced, lets say half a ton.
Still 1.5 tons missing. Hmm, maybe decreasing the beam duration from 1.3 to 1? This could help quite a bit. We are closer to the sweet spot. But for 1.5 tons, that is almost as much as the two medium lasers by themselves, I would decrease it even further. 0.8? 0.7?

So we get:
tons: 6
slots:2
damage: 15
heat: 8
duration: 0.7s
range: 600m

That somehow looks like a weapon that could be used, right?

Edited by Shevchen, 10 August 2014 - 12:35 AM.

[PholkLorr]

The PPC nerf was uncalled for.

If the problem is: Dual gauss + Dual PPC, fix that combo. Why nerf every other mech that does dual/single ppc builds? Only 2 mechs can pull a dual ppc dual gauss combo properly, but Paul just nerfed the other 20 over mechs that do single/dual ppc builds along as well. Talk about using a nuclear bomb to blow up a single house.

While the big mechs still have the option of using gauss/dual gauss as long range sniping weapons, what do the small mechs get? They can't mount a gauss rifle. Even if they could, it would be extremely sub optimal.

Also, i strongly disagree with Paul's logic that ppcs are being used as long range weapons as claimed:

• Brings the effective range of the PPC into the 600-800m range instead of out at 1000m+.

http://mwomercs.com/...patch-feedback/

How is hitting a target with a ppc at 1k+ range for 0.01 dmg at the cost of 10 heat overpowered? Does Paul know that the damage done past the stated range (540m for PPC) drops off and approaches 0 at 1080m? If players want to pay 10 heat to do 0.01 dmg they can jolly well do that because that is a complete waste of heat.

Paul's reasoning ability is questionable.

[SVK Puskin]

PholkLorr, on 10 August 2014 - 12:41 AM, said:

The PPC nerf was uncalled for.

If the problem is: Dual gauss + Dual PPC, fix that combo. Why nerf every other mech that does dual/single ppc builds? Only 2 mechs can pull a dual ppc dual gauss combo properly, but Paul just nerfed the other 20 over mechs that do single/dual ppc builds along as well. Talk about using a nuclear bomb to blow up a single house.

While the big mechs still have the option of using gauss/dual gauss as long range sniping weapons, what do the small mechs get? They can't mount a gauss rifle. Even if they could, it would be extremely sub optimal.

Also, i strongly disagree with Paul's logic that ppcs are being used as long range weapons as claimed:

• Brings the effective range of the PPC into the 600-800m range instead of out at 1000m+.

http://mwomercs.com/...patch-feedback/

How is hitting a target with a ppc at 1k+ range for 0.01 dmg at the cost of 10 heat overpowered? Does Paul know that the damage done past the stated range (540m for PPC) drops off and approaches 0 at 1080m? If players want to pay 10 heat to do 0.01 dmg they can jolly well do that because that is a complete waste of heat.

Paul's reasoning ability is questionable.

No they try to reduce/spread pinpoint damage from all long range sniper builds, not only 2 Gauss + 2 PPC.

Edited by ENS Puskin, 10 August 2014 - 02:52 AM.