143 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

wwiiogre, on 11 August 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Are any of you an Atlas pilot?

Most of the Atlas DDC damage comes from its torso area. Left torso is usually 3 missiles or 3xsrm6 and the right torso is an ac20. To hit with those you need to align your torso to the target. Which means you cannot twist or you have to twist then reface. A good Dire Wolf pilot has most of his damage in his arms and can face at angles and just wait for the Atlas to turn and then initiate his shot. So yeah the above timeline in a game is correct. Being alone one on one vs a Dire Wolf with an alpha that can be near 100 is folly.
Chris

The issue with this is...the Atlas doesn't need to stare down the Dire Whale with that loadout. If he doesn't fire his MLs, the SRMs and ACs are FLD, so he has to stare for at most .5 seconds, and then he can start twisting again.

[nehebkau]

wwiiogre, on 11 August 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Are any of you an Atlas pilot?

Most of the Atlas DDC damage comes from its torso area. Left torso is usually 3 missiles or 3xsrm6 and the right torso is an ac20. To hit with those you need to align your torso to the target. Which means you cannot twist or you have to twist then reface. A good Dire Wolf pilot has most of his damage in his arms and can face at angles and just wait for the Atlas to turn and then initiate his shot. So yeah the above timeline in a game is correct. Being alone one on one vs a Dire Wolf with an alpha that can be near 100 is folly.

One of my Dire Wolf's has an alpha of 128. And can fire three times before over heating. So this is the norm because there is no convergence. This is the norm because matchmaker says a Dire Wolf is the same as an Atlas. When firepower alone is not near equal.

But the math is not broken. IF the Atlas pilot wants to damage the Dire Wolf he has to face the dire wolf. And because of that alone, it takes less than 5 seconds for most Dire Wolf mechs to core an atlas when in optimal firing distance. Which is nearly double what the Atlas armed with srm/ac20 has.

So I understand this post and yes until we get a matchmaker that actually balances matches based on IS/Clan, tonnage, equipment, upgrades, modules, weapons and ecm. All we really has is a matchmaker that is set up to make it most likely one side will lose the game because ELO has only one purpose and that is to bring everyone's win/loss to 50%. Which means unfair matches for oneside almost always. And as for new players, one side always has more, why because elo gives a new player an inflated score on purpose.

Chris

/Thread-win.

[pwnface]

nehebkau, on 11 August 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I submit that a 'competitive' player may have made out better on the Atlas, but balancing a game based on the 1% will make the game function about as well as the economy.

You don't have to be a competitive player to torso twist. Torso twisting is actually a pretty basic concept that every single atlas pilot should know about. I'm pretty sure the percentage of Atlas pilots that torso twist is nowhere near 1%, probably closer to 90%. It seems your perception of events don't align with reality, maybe you should lay off the magic mushrooms.

[Mcgral18]

nehebkau, on 11 August 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

/Thread-win.

If you say so.

[nehebkau]

pwnface, on 11 August 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

You don't have to be a competitive player to torso twist. Torso twisting is actually a pretty basic concept that every single atlas pilot should know about. I'm pretty sure the percentage of Atlas pilots that torso twist is nowhere near 1%, probably closer to 90%. It seems your perception of events don't align with reality, maybe you should lay off the magic mushrooms.

argumentum ad hominem,

Nuff said.

[pwnface]

nehebkau, on 11 August 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

argumentum ad hominem,

Nuff said.

My main argument is perfectly valid. My joke about you being on drugs doesn't detract from my argument at all.

[wwiiogre]

Once again, a dire wolf pilot gets maximum damage at ranges outside the Atlas. So even the 58 damage for the 3srm6/ac20 combo is actually closer to 29 when the Dire Wolf is firing all of its weapon at full damage and most will recycle as fast or faster than the atlas combo. If the Atlas also wants to get his arm medium lasers in he also once again has to be near facing front for both lasers to hit. Which means a good dire wolf pilot can still hit ct on an atlas even when it is facing sideways. How you ask, simple shoot its head. Which is either CT or back CT.

Once again OP is correct and this will happen every time a competent Dire Wolf meets an Atlas face to face. Every single time 1 v 1. You can check this yourself by buying premium time and setting up 1 v 1 solaris death match with atlas vs dire wolf. But that would take effort and would eventually show that an Atlas never is the equal of a Dire Wolf. But if you want to test this, get two near equal pilots both with atlas and dire wolf mechs. Then have each play against the other ten times, 5 each in each mech. This gives you a basis to state unequivically that torso twisting matters. When in the end, convergence or lack thereof and high alpha matters most as well as full damage engagement ranges.

But then again I know math, how it applies to a battle, how to pin point my damage and also how sometimes skill never matches pure firepower in a straight head to head.

So if you want your data to matter, show recycle time, dps, damage and at what range for each mech. Then compare them with turn rates for torso twisting as well as recycle times for each weapon. Then get a comparison for target areas of the hit boxes for each mech when facing forward and while torso twisting and you will see the Atlas can always be hit in CT from every side except directly behind and even then a shot to side of head from directly behind can sometimes hit front ct.

Experiment, test, and share data. Instead of sharing conjecture.

Chris

Actually insulting is the worst sort of argument. It means you have no facts to share, therefore you insult to demean and lessen your intellectual opponent because you cannot best them with facts or data. That is part of intellectual debate. To demean and insult is the way of the bully and not the way to debate. But maybe I misunderstood the drug reference.

Chris

[nehebkau]

pwnface, on 11 August 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

My main argument is perfectly valid. My joke about you being on drugs doesn't detract from my argument at all.

So you didn't bother to read this post then :

wwiiogre, on 11 August 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Are any of you an Atlas pilot?

Most of the Atlas DDC damage comes from its torso area. Left torso is usually 3 missiles or 3xsrm6 and the right torso is an ac20. To hit with those you need to align your torso to the target. Which means you cannot twist or you have to twist then reface. A good Dire Wolf pilot has most of his damage in his arms and can face at angles and just wait for the Atlas to turn and then initiate his shot. So yeah the above timeline in a game is correct. Being alone one on one vs a Dire Wolf with an alpha that can be near 100 is folly.

One of my Dire Wolf's has an alpha of 128. And can fire three times before over heating. So this is the norm because there is no convergence. This is the norm because matchmaker says a Dire Wolf is the same as an Atlas. When firepower alone is not near equal.

But the math is not broken. IF the Atlas pilot wants to damage the Dire Wolf he has to face the dire wolf. And because of that alone, it takes less than 5 seconds for most Dire Wolf mechs to core an atlas when in optimal firing distance. Which is nearly double what the Atlas armed with srm/ac20 has.

So I understand this post and yes until we get a matchmaker that actually balances matches based on IS/Clan, tonnage, equipment, upgrades, modules, weapons and ecm. All we really has is a matchmaker that is set up to make it most likely one side will lose the game because ELO has only one purpose and that is to bring everyone's win/loss to 50%. Which means unfair matches for oneside almost always. And as for new players, one side always has more, why because elo gives a new player an inflated score on purpose.

Chris

[Lily from animove]

wwiiogre, on 11 August 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Are any of you an Atlas pilot?

Most of the Atlas DDC damage comes from its torso area. Left torso is usually 3 missiles or 3xsrm6 and the right torso is an ac20. To hit with those you need to align your torso to the target. Which means you cannot twist or you have to twist then reface. A good Dire Wolf pilot has most of his damage in his arms and can face at angles and just wait for the Atlas to turn and then initiate his shot. So yeah the above timeline in a game is correct. Being alone one on one vs a Dire Wolf with an alpha that can be near 100 is folly.

One of my Dire Wolf's has an alpha of 128. And can fire three times before over heating. So this is the norm because there is no convergence. This is the norm because matchmaker says a Dire Wolf is the same as an Atlas. When firepower alone is not near equal.

But the math is not broken. IF the Atlas pilot wants to damage the Dire Wolf he has to face the dire wolf. And because of that alone, it takes less than 5 seconds for most Dire Wolf mechs to core an atlas when in optimal firing distance. Which is nearly double what the Atlas armed with srm/ac20 has.

So I understand this post and yes until we get a matchmaker that actually balances matches based on IS/Clan, tonnage, equipment, upgrades, modules, weapons and ecm. All we really has is a matchmaker that is set up to make it most likely one side will lose the game because ELO has only one purpose and that is to bring everyone's win/loss to 50%. Which means unfair matches for oneside almost always. And as for new players, one side always has more, why because elo gives a new player an inflated score on purpose.

Chris

how long do you have to face a direwolf to launch 3xsrm's in an alpha? 0,2 secs before you can start twisting?

but I really need to test such an 102 alpha strike DW.

maybe its time we do get some energy system so you can maximum fire weapons of specific amount fo damge, like 2x gauss, or 6x a specific kind of lasers.

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 August 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Fatal25]

I have mastered three Atlas and the three Direwolves. The firepower the Direwolf can carry is considerably more than the Atlas. To my recollection I have never been killed one on one by any mech, not because I am some awesome player, simply because everyone targets the Direwolf. There have been several instances when I have come face to face with an Atlas in the Crimson Straits tunnel and beat them handily, once I killed two before dying. Again, not because I am an awesome player, simply because of firepower and better tech on the clan mechs. This is by no means to say that the Atlas cannot be fearsome on the battlefield. I still see Atlas pilots pull 1000 dmg games to this day. The only mech I feel can kill a Direwolf head to head is either another Direwolf or perhaps a Timberwolf. I am not talking about a pop tart shooting and hiding, I am talking about face to face, no cover, all trigger. A good light mech pilot can also take you out by doing the toilet bowl of death and pick you apart if you get caught alone and can't find a wall to put your back to.

Is it fair that one 100 ton mech is better than another, it is open for debate (is one sports car faster than other, even in video games). Are they equal, not when it comes to firepower.

[Heeden]

@wiiogre

I think you've missed the part where the Atlas was supported by 3 other mechs so didn't need to DPS at all, at least until a side-torso was taken from the DW.

Your also assuming the Atlas can only DPS by staring at their opponent, the AC-20 and SRMs are instant-shot (pin-point damage seems wrong to describe SRMs) so the Atlas needs to aim, shoot and twist away.

What happened is the Atlas and his lance ran into a Direwolf, they all crapped their pants, the Atlas was downed before he thought to protect himself (initially this was in 3 seconds of CERMLas firing which reasonable estimates put nearer to 10 seconds) the other scattered and were all taken out quickly (meaning it likely isn't one of the super high-alpha/heat builds).

It happens, first time I saw a Clan mech I spent a couple of moments admiring the fact they had yellow lasers, then my CT exploded. I've run into Direwolves face-first and just hit the brakes and gawped, only to explode moments later, despite the fact my Centurion could have easily gotten away with only losing an arm, or at least lasted a while if I force the Direwolf to strip off every scrap of armour before I go down (and yes, sometimes it is good to turn your back to the enemy to absorb an extra few points of damage).

This doesn't mean Direwolves are OP, it means they're dangerous. Even the fact they will likely beat an Atlas one-on-one doesn't make them OP, an Atlas would probably do better than a DW when attacked by a group of lighter mechs. They're both different, and both dangerous in their own ways. Maybe (probably) the Clan tech needs some tuning to ensure balance at equal skill levels (however that may be judged), but they are not the monsters made out in the OP.

[Augustus Martelus II]

If you stand there and don t torso twist or move....every mech should die in a second.

Like that Dire Wolf pilot who told me i was cheating and would report....because i killed him in 5 second since he was standing there and not moving while shooting at me.

Killed him with a few barrage of c er med lasers and a csrm6 and 2 srm4 with artemis.

He made me 20% of damage but i did spread it out well since i was torso twisting and moving fast with my stormcrow.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Considering the number of times I have been blown away by a one shot alpha by a D-DC. (ac 20, 2 ppc and 2 srm6's. 52 point alpha) Using ECM to get that close.


YES!

This is QQ just because there is a new big boy around that can do it to you now.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 11 August 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Archon]

pwnface, on 11 August 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

You don't have to be a competitive player to torso twist. Torso twisting is actually a pretty basic concept that every single atlas pilot should know about. I'm pretty sure the percentage of Atlas pilots that torso twist is nowhere near 1%, probably closer to 90%. It seems your perception of events don't align with reality, maybe you should lay off the magic mushrooms.

Really any player should be able to torso twist; it's an essential part of surviving and mechbattling.

[NovaFury]

Medium laser spam has killed atlai who don't twist since the beginning of time.

I can't even count how many my HBK-4P or JRD-7F have done similarly.

[Moomtazz]

I've been on the giving and receiving end of a 6 U/AC Direwolf vs Atlas fight. The Atlas dies in about 6 seconds.

[Rebas Kradd]

nehebkau, on 09 August 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Unfortunately PGI will probably respond by nerfing the CERML rather than addressing the stupidity that is convergence -- am I right?

Yes. Because addressing convergence would completely revamp the game's landscape, require a start-over on all weapons balance, and introduce the frustration of weapons fire not going where the player wants it. Three big no-nos in game development.

[Wintersdark]

Honestly, I'd rather have a D-DC in a match with me than a Direwolf, if it's one or the other (I'd rather have both, of course, it that's an option) because ECM matters. Particularly when it's carried by a 100t war machine that won't be haring off randomly like some moron sniper-raven.

Other Atlases are much less impressive, but this isn't news: Victors, Highlanders, and Stalkers have eaten their lunch for a long, long time.

One on one in a stand up fight, the Direwolf will simply always win. But, on the other hand, an Atlas needn't fear a single light/medium/fast heavy - I wouldn't take an Atlas against a Direwolf, but I'd take my YLW or HBK-4P. On the other hand, an Atlas with it's maneuverable arms, increased speed and agility... It's perfectly able to take care of itself vs. light strikers.

Apples and oranges.

[Hillslam]

OP raises perfectly good point/question and provides PGI with game ID link to match to look into it.

Clan forum lawyers swoop in from the woodwork to pick apart ancilliary and pointless peripheral parts of his question/premise in order to obfuscate.

DEPLOY THE WORDS!
CAST ASPERSIONS!
MUDDY THE WATERS!

(AKA - never EVER post anything supporting the possibility that what may be required is a nerf to our clan mechs. We are uber role playing neckbeard kings and we require our paid-for uber boss gear to impose our self-image of being better on the rest of the players because our skills aint getting that done)

Edited by Hillslam, 11 August 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Aresye]

nehebkau, on 11 August 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

/Thread-win.

Not really, because his post is only taking a head-on fight into consideration.

1. Assault mech or not, you just DON'T approach and fight a Dire Wolf head on. Even another Dire Wolf has an extremely short survival time if it's facing down its own kind. It is literally the slowest and least agile mech that exists in the game. You know what happens when you charge a chain-firing 6 LRM-5 Catapult in the open? It doesn't matter if you're in an assault. You're going to get rocked, because you're playing into that mech's single advantage. Stop trying to get into a head-on brawl with a Dire Wolf, torso twist away if one faces you, and ALWAYS have some form of cover nearby, and Dire Wolves will literally cease to be a problem for you entirely.

2. His elaboration on the MM and how "ELO has only one purpose and that is to bring everyone's win/loss to 50%," is 100% wrong, and has been thoroughly debunked countless times.