64 replies to this topic

[Connaugh]

Just a little answer on my behalf:

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

But's let's imagine for a moment that Battletech lore just doesn't exist. It is a game about mechs, and there are two factions.

...

What? I know, I know. The LORE. The tabletop! Well, let's be realistic. The LORE sucks. ... The decision is clear here.

If this Lore didn't exist, you wouldnt be able to write these lines because MWO would be just like any other Online Multiplayer Game on the market. The Lore is it what made this game exist in the first place. BT/MW(not O) IS about a technologically crippled society this is threatened to be overrun be an OVERPOWERED opponent! If you ever played MW4MERCS you would know which fight the Clans SHOULD give you when you encountered them for the first time (and not steered by any player, but by the AI of a game) - they have to be overwhelming.

You as a game designer miss the most important point: The games you mentioned were created for the PC, AFTER someone discovered/developed its opportunities. For those games, the creation of balanced opponents was an evident necessity, the creation of a story pretty but irrelevant. And we all now to how many replacable games this led. MWO lives from its story, from the lore and thus is different and has to be different. It's its difference is what makes the difference .
You as a game designer should be able to fathom this and you should be the first person being able to respect the efforts of people that developed a (borad) game LONG before either you were born or at least before you ever thought of what to become as a grown up. And these efforts are being destroyed by too much "balancing".

And for your last (quoted) sentence: If you don't like the story of a game, go and play another robot-fighing-like-somehow-game. Or something with tanks, or so... ( ) .

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

... Clans are a problem ...

You got it! The Clans are the Problem of the IS that it needs to overcome with the options it has. WITH THE OPTIONS IT HAS! Not with the answer of a whining susceptible "GOD" playing the "all must be equal"-card.

If any player steering a clan mech would commit himself to the rules of clan warfare, every little inch of overpoweredness would be absolutely justified. But as this is nearly impossible to establish/enforce, a slightly downtuning is acceptable. Completely balanced Clans are not! No matter how much the non-lore-knowing-and-replacable-games-game-mechanic-accustomed player base starts to complain.

And therefore it is important for the designers and community managers to possibly listen to everything. But and i think this might be what they are doing, when it comes to changing the game, they prefer taking their statistics prior to totally unobjective and biased opinions from players of whatever quality.

[El Bandito]

Connaugh, on 21 August 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

But and i think this might be what they are doing, when it comes to changing the game, they prefer taking their statistics prior to totally unobjective and biased opinions from players of whatever quality.

The same PGI statistics certain forumers (especially the Clan pack purchasers) are deriding as trash? So you mean to say that PGI is doing the right thing and those forumers should take the statistics at face value and shut up?

Just curious.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 August 2014 - 06:34 AM.

[SaltBeef]

The lore stats were great!, the only ones I thought were weak were armor values vs weapons damage. PGI has been addressing this. If we had Canon armor values I would expect to see 1 min stomp matches 12 vs 12. Table top got it all right except for armor values were weak as hell. Made for some powerful Battletech book read battles though!



Med laser gores left torso removing 1/2 ton of armor sending the melting slag to the ground. Pilot struggles to control mech shuddering from the sudden loss of armor.

Edited by SaltBeef, 21 August 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Sudden, on 21 August 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

well the orginal poster should note, without the lore mwo will lose its player base. almost instantly. all us old timers will leave. and we are the guys paying the bills for this game.I am sure theres lots of younger peeps playing. but in the end I doubt they are the ones spending the big bucks. just my 2 cents. dunno if I am wrong

This is somewhat true. Honestly the biggest reason I am still around and spending money on this game is because I am a hardcore Battletech fan from back when it was just at table top game.

Honestly this is always an issue when your working with an existing IP. Basically they come with certain expectations and if those expectations aren't met, you lose all the built in players that come with the IP.

Right now MWO and PGI are riding the razors edge of catering to people who are new to the IP verses losing all all hardcore fans that are really the ones that have been keeping the game alive. It doesn't help when PGI employees make statements like how we fans are no longer the demographic that they are designing the game for.

Anyway, PGI would have been a ton better off shooting for a niche game that catered specifically to Battletech/Mechwarrior fans than getting greedy and trying to grab market share from all the other, better and more popular, arena shooters out there. They would have had a hardcore and more importantly, dedicated fan base of probably 100-200k or more players which would have eventually drawn in and made new fans just by being a good, unique game that was true to the Battletech/Mechwarrior IP.

Of course the vast majority of MMOs today make this same mistake. You don't have to be WoW or have WoW-like subscription numbers to be successful. Hell even with SWTOR with its huge, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of development cost indicated they only needed 500k subscribers to be considered profitable so I just don't understand why MMO developers can't just develop good, niche games that cater to a specific fan base rather than trying to be everything to everyone. Honestly this is the downfall of modern MMOs and PGI is following right down the same path of destruction.

[Tastian]

Starcraft is Zerg vs Terran or Terran vs Protoss. Its important that those factions are very balanced.

Right now, MWO isn't Clan vs IS; its mixed combat (Clan AND IS vs Clan AND IS). Even if the Timberwolf is the top dog right now, I think the next several places are occupied by Innersphere mechs. Additionally, Innersphere still owns the light bracket with the Raven, Spider, Firestarter, and Jenner. Innersphere still has top tier pinpoint mechs like the Cataphract and Jagermech. And although Innersphere's missiles are twice as heavy, I see tons of very successful Stalker, Awesome, Catapult and Battlemaster missile boats.

I'm not saying Clan aren't OP. Because the concept is OP: XL engines, half weight LRMs, farther reaching lasers. Crit slot spaces in smaller sizes (DHS, FF, ENDO, weapons). Double ammo, lighter weapons, etc. IS still has some advantages like single slug ACs, PPC, faster lights, more flexible mech building, etc. With mixed armies, teams can bring the strengths of both.

[FDJustin]

SaltBeef, on 21 August 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

Med laser gores left torso removing 1/2 ton of armor sending the melting slag to the ground. Pilot struggles to control mech shuddering from the sudden loss of armor.

Up next for mech balancing: Unbalanced mechs!


Unfortunately, based on the current game design (12 v 12 combats, mixed faction.) I'm going to have to agree. "This is online, not board. For balance, corerule ignore."
If you want the game to live and thrive and be wonderful for the next 10 years so you can see all your favourite toys and tools, it needs to be more or less balanced. If it was a different type of game, you could have a strong tech advantage on one side over the other. But in that case, it would probably be limited to events, or kept out of the general populations hands.
But as things are right now, do you want clan mechs that feel different but balanced, or do you want a dead game? I really doubt there are enough oldschool whales to keep it afloat for more than a few years, and I doubt many of them would stay interested for that long in either constantly dominating, or constantly getting crushed.
I like being the underdog, believe me, it's fun. There still has to be a sense of there actually being a chance though, or it goes from a fun struggle to painful waste of time.

[Zyllos]

I completely sympathize to a game developer in this situation of how unbalanced Clan and Inner Sphere are with in the lore and then trying to transition that into a game.

But, that is the whole reason why this game succeeds in the first place. This game isn't just a "upright tanks with lasers" style of game. You can't just balance the two and then expect the player base to agree. This is how Battletech have existed for years.

This is part of the reason why 10v12 is good (and lore) reason for the change in balance.

[Voidcrafter]

Tastian, on 21 August 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I'm not saying Clan aren't OP. Because the concept is OP: XL engines, half weight LRMs, farther reaching lasers. Crit slot spaces in smaller sizes (DHS, FF, ENDO, weapons). Double ammo, lighter weapons, etc. IS still has some advantages like single slug ACs, PPC, faster lights, more flexible mech building, etc. With mixed armies, teams can bring the strengths of both.

Gimme that double ammo!
Or those half LRMs being with the same efficiency as IS variants!
Or critslot spaces customization!
Lasers never mattered to me that much, cause I play mostly brawler mechs and I always try to be seen when it's too late for my foe - overall I can agree for that - boating lasers is bad. No matter which side you're on.
And before posting that clans are OP do you actually posses non-laser-boating clan mechs that you target as an op, that have a decent IS varaint(meaning IS mech that weights the same and it's not garbage in terms of trying to achieve the same as the Clan version of it)?
I doubt it.

[SaltBeef]

I want clan mechs to remain better but IS to have numerical superiority as in Lore.... but I agree everyone wants the strong fist to smash with so IS would disappear.

The only way to counter this is to add era battles.

3025 IS vs IS matches IS mechs only. Mech launch window selectable like skirmish or assault.

Clan v Clan Wolf vs Jade falcon MW2 battles

Clan vs clan Warden vs Crusader Batchall match.
( Bidding happens at the
start of the match ) Both teams must agree before the
launch can happen.

Is Mercs vs Pirates
( Need to add the pirate mech and tech readout)
Is Mercs vs Clan
( 8 Merc vs 5 clan ) Salvage rewards for IS.

Occupation IS or Clan Hold city against ground forces and mech forces in anti guerilla Stability ops. Enemy forces spawn at random times from different areas of the maps getting stronger and faster as they enter the battlefeild.


IS vs Clan would have to take place during operation bulldog to include added IS tech omnimechs and weapons numerical superiority match on the home world of huntress.

Large Space platform capture. Fight against turrets, mechs, and a small enemy frigate.

Edited by SaltBeef, 21 August 2014 - 07:24 AM.

[Connaugh]

El Bandito, on 21 August 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

The same PGI statistics certain forumers (especially the Clan pack purchasers) are deriding as trash? So you mean to say that PGI is doing the right thing and those forumers should take the statistics at face value and shut up?

Just curious.

Do you see the vicious cycle?

I refer to the collection of data that I have never seen and I assume so has nearly anybode else who is active in this forum. As I do not read every post I may not have seen those "certain forumers", and thus haven't seen any deriding of the statistic. But I am one of those Clan pack purchasers (just to be complete ).

If PGI takes simple numbers collected by a (surely: their) system this is in my opinion definitely the better way to develop improvements compared to evaluating possible ill tempered posts from possibly displeased players.

Simple Example:
1. 2 Teams of 12 Players each: Statistic = 24 Players doing their thing
2. 2 Teams of 12 Players each, 1 Team of 12 Players loses, 11 move on, 1 just thinks to need to complain
Statistic wins over Opinion.

Shall those forumers shut up? Definitely not. Shall they take the stats as face value? Once more, No. But shall they also accept that statistics that they may never have seen, could be the better way to improve the gameplay of 1 complaining player PLUS "the other 23"? Definitely yes!

[Lostdragon]

I don't get all the crying about the TBR. It is good, the best clan mech imo, but it is no HGN 732. Remember when that beast was roaming the IS with 3x PPC and a GR? I killed 28 people in that mech before I died. 30 games into playing that mech I still had an 8.00 KDR. I currently don't have nearly that good of a KDR in any TBR, not even close. The prime is close to 2.0, but that's it.

So while the TBR is really good and may need some tuning, I think most of the people complaining about it don't really realize what something that is truly OP really looks like.

[Fuligin]

People never mention the substandard clan mechs you get in the packs in these threads either.

Summoner prime has only one weapon slot for each type.

One kit fox and one summoner variant have exclusively missile slots. Try to get that to work out consistently.

One dire wolf has to boat ballistic weapons, even though most clan ballistics are sub par.

I don't have warhawk but I have seen some awful looking builds when spectating.

Adder is just terrible all around.

The nova....what is the point of 12 c-mlas? Because boating mlas works so well for e.g. awesome or hunchback after ghost heat was invented?

Stormcrow and timber wolf are both pretty good with good variants.

Yes, you can tweak all of this with omnipod changes, but then your argument would become "clan mechs are OP if you tweak them to a meta build." I think that reduces to "meta is OP" and frankly that is how it goes with or without clan tech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lostdragon, on 21 August 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

I don't get all the crying about the TBR. It is good, the best clan mech imo, but it is no HGN 732. Remember when that beast was roaming the IS with 3x PPC and a GR? I killed 28 people in that mech before I died. 30 games into playing that mech I still had an 8.00 KDR. I currently don't have nearly that good of a KDR in any TBR, not even close. The prime is close to 2.0, but that's it.

So while the TBR is really good and may need some tuning, I think most of the people complaining about it don't really realize what something that is truly OP really looks like.

Yep. Your absolutely right. TBR is a good mech, no question of that, but good doesn't mean OPed, it just means good.

I mean it it kind of like saying this:

The Shadow Hawk is a good mech....NERF!!!
The Banshee is a good mech...NERF!!!
The Spider and Firestarter are good mechs...NERF!!!

And then after the nerf if the Battlemaster is the top IS assault.....NERF THE BATTLEMASTER BECAUSE IT IS THE BEST NOW....NERF, NERF, NERF!!!!!!!

Point is there is always going to be something that is the "best" mech in a class but so what? Who cares as long as people are also playing other mechs in that class. I am not going quit playing my Quickdraw, Cataphract or Jagermech just because I can play a Timber Wolf and neither are alot of people. Also there are only two Clan Heavies and the Clans are new so is it any real surprise that alot of people are playing the best one of the two options? If we had 8-10 Clan heavies in game and 75-80% of people were playing the Timber Wolf, then there would be an issue but we don't have that.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Fuligin, on 21 August 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

People never mention the substandard clan mechs you get in the packs in these threads either.

Summoner prime has only one weapon slot for each type.

One kit fox and one summoner variant have exclusively missile slots. Try to get that to work out consistently.

One dire wolf has to boat ballistic weapons, even though most clan ballistics are sub par.

I don't have warhawk but I have seen some awful looking builds when spectating.

Adder is just terrible all around.

The nova....what is the point of 12 c-mlas? Because boating mlas works so well for e.g. awesome or hunchback after ghost heat was invented?

Stormcrow and timber wolf are both pretty good with good variants.

Yes, you can tweak all of this with omnipod changes, but then your argument would become "clan mechs are OP if you tweak them to a meta build." I think that reduces to "meta is OP" and frankly that is how it goes with or without clan tech.

Actually your argument doesn't really work since Clan mechs can swap omnipods. For example, my missile boat Kit Fox is currently armed with a ER PPC, 2 ER MLs, 2 MGs and ECM, no missiles to be found anywhere.

Basically because of this there is no such thing as a substandard Clan variant as you can damn near build all three variants to be identical, at least aside from those variants that offer a weapons mount in the CT.

However that is not to say that there isn't substandard Clan mechs. For example, there really isn't anything that will convince me that an Adder is as good or better than a Kit Fox. Also, the Summoner obviously isn't better than the Timber Wolf and actually potentially worse than alot of IS heavies. All I am saying is that every Clan variant has the potential to offer the very best build available to that chassis.

Note: I believe this is one of the reasons why there is such a massive perception that clans are OPed. Unlike IS mechs which have many, many crappy variants that people are forced to play in order to master out a chassis, Clan mechs always have the best build options available to them and it shows in their overall performance.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 21 August 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[Tastian]

Voidcrafter, on 21 August 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

Gimme that double ammo!
Or those half LRMs being with the same efficiency as IS variants!
Or critslot spaces customization!
Lasers never mattered to me that much, cause I play mostly brawler mechs and I always try to be seen when it's too late for my foe - overall I can agree for that - boating lasers is bad. No matter which side you're on.
And before posting that clans are OP do you actually posses non-laser-boating clan mechs that you target as an op, that have a decent IS varaint(meaning IS mech that weights the same and it's not garbage in terms of trying to achieve the same as the Clan version of it)?
I doubt it.

I'm not sure if this question was directed back at me or not but it seems like it is. And, I'm not entirely sure what you are asking here.

If you are asking if I have non-laser-boating Clan mechs? Then yes. I have the full clan package and I've very close to mastering all of them. I use a healthy mix of ACs, SRMs, LRMs, and Lasers (I'm honestly not great with Gauss although I use them on one DireWhale).

If that's not what you are asking, please rephrase.

[Mercules]

Tastian, on 21 August 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

Starcraft is Zerg vs Terran or Terran vs Protoss. Its important that those factions are very balanced.

They weren't in the first Starcraft. The ONLY way for a Zerg player to win is to "Zerg". Zerg player can't win a long run game because of the way the Supply mechanic works. If you run a game long enough for Supply to become a factor the Zerg run into a brick wall sooner and can't have their "numerical" advantage on a steady basis. They can replace casualties faster but when a fight starts with both races at the supply limit Protoss have a clear advantage over the other two races because their troops are exponentially better based off their "supply" cost.

[Mystere]

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

What? I know, I know. The LORE. The tabletop! Well, let's be realistic. The LORE sucks. It is cool as a whole, but when it comes to making a balanced game, it is just sooooo bad. A lot of fans are going to be upset if the LORE is not respected. Ok. But if the LORE breaks fundamental principles of game design, if it's bad for the game balance, if it's bad for the community... The decision is clear here.

Since I never played World of Tanks and you used to work on it, I have just 1 question. How did you guys balance the Sherman against the Panther?

[SaltBeef]

I remember when starcraft 1st came out! I was playing zerg and they were vastly overpowered until the 1st patch. I would dial up game with a friend in the morning on 28.8 LOL Build 6 bases then just spawn zergling towards his bases by the 4th wave he was done with swarms after swarms of locust zergling. They nerfed the zerg hard in the next patch.

Edited by SaltBeef, 21 August 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[SgtMagor]

I haven't tried the adder yet, but with out crouching it takes some of its stealthness away I used to sit in the middle of map or in water crouch and shut down and nobody would notice my mech in MW4, so I used to snipe a mech, from about 500 meters out crouch and shutdown, had lots of fun in that little bugger, did the same thing with the Cougar too

[Turist0AT]

Because of ppl like you OP we cant have nice things. You want all weapons to be medium lasers in the name of balance. I want all weapon system be equally over powered.

All mechs are running the same build. I like choices and i dont like the limitations this nerf train is creating on the gameplay and mechs creations

Edited by Turist0AT, 21 August 2014 - 08:01 AM.