101 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Modo44, on 24 August 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

This is all great until your squishy friends die because your 85+ tons stayed in cover while they locked your targets. Doubly so when there was just too much ECM and/or cover, so your LRMs did **** all. We are not talking about nimble heavies or mediums here, we are talking about Stalkers.

Or, maybe we're talking about Battlemasters, which equal the mobility of heavies. YOU are talking about Stalkers. Let's be honest with each other here, the Stalkers have been relegated to second fiddle to the BLR-1S when it comes to LRM support.

[IraqiWalker]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Whatever. Don't believe me go and observe, friendly mech gets narced and instantly 6-10 streams of LRMs appear in the sky. For him its the end of the match.

Unless it's Caustic Valley, or Alpine. There should be cover nearby that would allow them to survive almost unharmed. If they couldn't get to good cover during the 5 or so seconds it takes the LRMs to get there, they messed up, and deserve to lose a limb or two for it. In that same time frame, with a direct fire weapon, I would have probably gotten the kill, by my lonesome, instead of having a bunch of us firing together.

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Or, maybe we're talking about Battlemasters, which equal the mobility of heavies. YOU are talking about Stalkers. Let's be honest with each other here, the Stalkers have been relegated to second fiddle to the BLR-1S when it comes to LRM support.

Even Awesomes can move like a sprinter while carrying loads of LRMs.

[Ace Selin]

Don't listen to what others think, play how you want and what you find fun.

[Escef]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Whatever. Don't believe me go and observe, friendly mech gets narced and instantly 6-10 streams of LRMs appear in the sky. For him its the end of the match.

What, you think I don't play the game, son? Are you on drugs? I've got 77 mechs, the only ones purchased with real world cash were my Phoenix and Clan packs, 4 heroes, and a CPLT-A1. So, that's 36 mechs worth of c-bill grinding I've done. (and that doesn't count the 2 Commandos, 2 Jenners, Atlas RS, Hunchback, and 2 Trebs I've sold, so it's more like 44 mechs I've purchased with C-bills). And you somehow think I haven't seen this game played by now?

Look, you're a Founder, which means you theoretically have been at this game for 2 years, and have yet to learn how to deal with LRMs, apparently.

[PhoenixFire55]

IraqiWalker, on 24 August 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

No, it's because people are impatient, stubbornly refuse to use tactics

Sitting in one spot doing nothing isn't tactics.

IraqiWalker, on 24 August 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

they also want to win, and not get hurt.

Ah, and there is the problem. You can't.

Most people think that without them their team can't win, so they do everything to stay alive no matter what happens to their teammates, only ... surprise surprise, its they who are useless without the team. Exactly what LRM boat is, useless, unless you have somebody who sacrifices his armor to get locks for it.

[Konril]

After mastering three Highlanders, I found two that I wanted to keep. One is a close to "meta" HGN-733C, armed with 2 Ultra AC/5s, PPC, 3 Streak 2 launchers, and a standard engine for durability. The other is a highly modified HGN-733P, featuring 2 LRM 20 launchers, NARC, and 3 medium pulse lasers for close in defense. In other words, a classic assault LRM boat.

As of this writing my current record with these two looks like this.
HGN-733C: 24 wins, 24 losses, 23 kills, 39 deaths.
HGN-733P: 24 wins, 23 losses, 31 kills, 30 deaths.

So, they're pretty much neck & neck in terms of win/loss performance on the field.

The trouble I usually find with LRMs currently falls somewhere between outdated prejudice and plain idiocy. LRMs weren't all that great in the beta period and there has been a string of missile adjustments and cannon nerfs that has gotten the game in the state it is right now. About the minimum range, if the opponent gets that close to you then you may not be able to do much about it but any nearby companions (including other LRM boats) are going to find that overextended brawler an easy kill. So generally, the minimum range is not going to be much of an issue unless you do something stupid or your teammates abandon you. Getting left behind and wolfpacked by light and fast medium mechs is trouble for any assault mech, and not just LRM boats. LRMs are otherwise very good at firing over low hills and your allies heads. So LRM boats are exceptionally good at providing fire support for just about any nearby ally that needs it. So the key to winning the battle with an LRM boat is knowing where your team is, supporting them, and making it as easy as possible for them to support you.

The trouble I find with "meatshielding" is that ultimately everybody is squishy. In the testing grounds, I find it takes a single LRM launcher roughly 50 seconds to kill the test Atlas from the front. (About 3 NARC pods used during each of my tests with a Kit Fox, a clan LRM 20, and a NARC.) With something like the STK-3F(C) with 4 Artemis LRM 15s, an Atlas caught in the open can end up totaled in 16 or 17 seconds. Get two or three missile boats working together and it's not going to be hard to figure out what is going to happen to someone who gets NARCced. This isn't really limited to LRMs either. Getting hit with 6 PPCs or ER Large Lasers, even from 3 different mechs, is going to leave one crippled or dead very quickly. Autocannons are also famous for both their accuracy and DPS. 3 Ultra AC/5s will shred just about anyone's center torso very quickly if it remains exposed. It takes about 18 seconds for an Atlas, or as little as 9 seconds if you're lucky enough not to jam the guns. The standard engine combined with torso twisting to protect the center torso with the arm and side torso can give a big advantage in a one-on-one duel against a similarly weighted opponent. However that kind of situation is honestly very rare. Tough or not, most kills on the battlefield happen when 3 or more combatants catch an opponent in a bad position and gang up on them, which makes "meatshielding" really tough to do.

Does that makes sense?

[Modo44]

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Or, maybe we're talking about Battlemasters, which equal the mobility of heavies. YOU are talking about Stalkers. Let's be honest with each other here, the Stalkers have been relegated to second fiddle to the BLR-1S when it comes to LRM support.

It does not matter when you stand back because of the huge XL needed to make room for your LRMs. You are not tanking when you could, therefore weakening your team. And you are still dependant on the ECM v anti-ECM lottery.

[PhoenixFire55]

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Look, you're a Founder, which means you theoretically have been at this game for 2 years, and have yet to learn how to deal with LRMs, apparently.

Lobby, any of those 77 mechs you want 1 on 1 vs me. I'll show you exactly how I deal with LRMs. I'm waiting.

[IraqiWalker]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Sitting in one spot doing nothing isn't tactics.

No, but using cover to close distance is. I'm surprised you didn't get that.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Most people think that without them their team can't win, so they do everything to stay alive no matter what happens to their teammates, only ... surprise surprise, its they who are useless without the team. Exactly what LRM boat is, useless, unless you have somebody who sacrifices his armor to get locks for it.

Sooo, playing a team game, in a team setting, with a weapon that gains benefit from teamwork is ... bad? Do I really need to explain to you how wrong you are there?

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Lobby, any of those 77 mechs you want 1 on 1 vs me. I'll show you exactly how I deal with LRMs. I'm waiting.

Sure thing. I'll be the spotter, in a Locust with NARC and/or TAG, let's see how my squishy mech dies getting locks, before you die without dealing 10 damage to him.

Did you never learn that internet challenges don't really mount to anything, especially flawed ones?

We're talking in a 12 v 12 setting, where you clearly have a problem with LRMs. Not 1v1, where the LRM mech is completely blind. That's like me calling you out into a 1v1 where you pilot the Huginn, and I pilot a Locust, but you don't get to bring any ammo.

Oh, and if you say he can bring any other mech you want (still ignoring LRMs being handicapped here), then it's not really related to this thread about LRMs, and their viability on assault mechs, so take the e-peen talk somewhere else.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 August 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

IraqiWalker, on 24 August 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

No, but using cover to close distance is. I'm surprised you didn't get that.

Hm, great. And exactly how does that helps us? Hopping from cover to cover is all people do, and also taking pop-shots. Thats why this game is nothing but LRM spam and whatever mech has highest pinpoint alpha. Sure, you can get close, like 250-300m close. Only as soon as you go round the corner all those LRMs will rain on you. If you are good you can take 1 down with you maybe, but thats it. The rest of your team will stand just where they stood and keep complaining nobody gives them locks.

IraqiWalker, on 24 August 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

Sooo, playing a team game, in a team setting, with a weapon that gains benefit from teamwork is ... bad? Do I really need to explain to you how wrong you are there?

lol PUGs? Team game? When was the last time you saw any teamwork in PUGs? No, honestly?
Solo queue? Even group queue that doesn't have a 10-man/12-man?
All people care is their stats and c-bills.

IraqiWalker, on 24 August 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

Sure thing. I'll be the spotter, in a Locust with NARC and/or TAG, let's see how my squishy mech dies getting locks, before you die without dealing 10 damage to him.

I don't own a Locust so if you want to duel you'll have to bring either Spider or Jenner. And if you plan on doing a 2 vs 1 I strongly suggest bringing a mech that doesn't die from a sneeze.

IraqiWalker, on 24 August 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

Did you never learn that internet challenges don't really mount to anything, especially flawed ones?

We're talking in a 12 v 12 setting, where you clearly have a problem with LRMs. Not 1v1, where the LRM mech is completely blind. That's like me calling you out into a 1v1 where you pilot the Huginn, and I pilot a Locust, but you don't get to bring any ammo.

Oh, and if you say he can bring any other mech you want (still ignoring LRMs being handicapped here), then it's not really related to this thread about LRMs, and their viability on assault mechs, so take the e-peen talk somewhere else.

Not the point. Guy implies I don't know how to play the game, thats a challenge in itself issued already. Plus I don't know and/or care if he actually uses LRMs or whatever, so I offer him to bring any mech he is good in. If he agrees and beats me then probably he knows the game better than I and visa versa. Thus the argument of 'who has no clue' which he brought up will be resolved.

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Or, maybe we're talking about Battlemasters, which equal the mobility of heavies. YOU are talking about Stalkers. Let's be honest with each other here, the Stalkers have been relegated to second fiddle to the BLR-1S when it comes to LRM support.

Shows what you know and how you play. Takes MUCH more direct fire damage to kill a Stalker than a Battlemaster.

[IraqiWalker]

Okay, I'm gonna try to break this down reasonably.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Hm, great. And exactly how does that helps us? Hopping from cover to cover is all people do, and also taking pop-shots. Thats why this game is nothing but LRM spam and whatever mech has highest pinpoint alpha. Sure, you can get close, like 250-300m close. Only as soon as you go round the corner all those LRMs will rain on you. If you are good you can take 1 down with you maybe, but thats it. The rest of your team will stand just where they stood and keep complaining nobody gives them locks.

No, if people actually hopped from cover to cover, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Because they wouldn't be complaining about LRMs, since all of them are hitting their cover. No, people HUG cover. They stick to one spot. They don't close distance. The ones that do use cover right, and know how to get close to their opponents, are mostly no longer in those Elo tiers.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

lol PUGs? Team game? When was the last time you saw any teamwork in PUGs? No, honestly?
Solo queue? Even group queue that doesn't have a 10-man/12-man?
All people care is their stats and c-bills.

In all honesty? Today. 3 hours or so ago. Terra Therma, I gave a plan, and the team followed it. For at least the first 4 minutes, then 2 idiots charged into the PuG zapper and cost us the game. However, other than them, the other 9 players on the team actually followed the orders and worked together, sadly, what those two started caused a catastrophic chain of events that ended with our loss.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

I don't own a Locust so if you want to duel you'll have to bring either Spider or Jenner. And if you plan on doing a 2 vs 1 I strongly suggest bringing a mech that doesn't die from a sneeze.

I'd be the one bringing it, why would you need to own it? I picked the locust, because it's both very squishy-the squishiest in fact- (which you and Modo highlighted as something that spotters share in common), and because I like it, and do well in it. I intentionally picked a loadout that has no offensive capability, because you wanted to fight the LRM boat, so I'm not going to deal you any damage, just NARC/TAG you until you evaporate.

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Not the point. Guy implies I don't know how to play the game, thats a challenge in itself issued already. Plus I don't know and/or care if he actually uses LRMs or whatever, so I offer him to bring any mech he is good in. If he agrees and beats me then probably he knows the game better than I and visa versa. Thus the argument of 'who has no clue' which he brought up will be resolved.

No, he implied that you have a problem with certain tactics that should be widespread. Big difference. He didn't say you couldn't torso twist, or point and click, nope. You have a problem with LRMs, and that's the only weapon in the game reliant almost completely on it's victim's mistakes. As such, the logical conclusion is that you have a weakness in dealing with LRMs. In addition, since tactical awareness is the number 1 requirement for dealing with LRMs (where cover is, which piece of it is effective ... etc.), it's most likely that's where your weakness is.

All of this is observational, and has nothing to do with how well you aim, in fact. Rendering a combat challenge almost irrelevant in the first place. I can't play football better than a 20 year pro QB, but I can sure as hell point out where he made mistakes. If I go 1v1 with him, he wins. Doesn't actually make him right, or me wrong.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 August 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 August 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Shows what you know and how you play. Takes MUCH more direct fire damage to kill a Stalker than a Battlemaster.

Are you trying to prove him right?

If you're saying that Stalkers are tankier than BLRs, then you're saying that the BLR-1S should be an LRM mech.

[beerandasmoke]

IraqiWalker is correct about avoiding LRMs. Its not about rooting yourself behind cover. Its about staying mobile but close to cover so you can quickly duck and break lock if your spotted. Radar Dep. and smart play easily counters LRM spam.

[n r g]

uglydisease, on 23 August 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

I just had an argument with a friend about how to use assaults correctly. He proposes that Assaults are supposed to be meat shields and should never be lrm boats. I disagree, especially when it comes to pugging when you are in a slow moving assault the rest of the team almost never waits for you making it impossible to meat shield. Its not uncommon for an assault placed in a poor spawn location to be wolf packed by a group of lights that rip out the mechs back armor. This doesn't do much to help absorb damage for the team either. In most assault mechs I wind up with weapons like AC5s, PPCs, LL and Gauss because the front lines are usually farther away from you than in a faster mech. My friend contents that assaults should NEVER be lrm boats. This seems silly to me as Stalkers make for some of the best LRM boats in the game. Honestly I felt like he was being a bit an elite purest.

When playing in a group the rules are a bit different I grant you but I still don't think there is anything wrong with using an assault lrm boat if the team is taking an lrm/tag/narc strategy.

Any opinions on this question.

situational. there is "no correct"

[ExoForce]

I think everything is better then Stalker, so I beg enemy not to use Stalkers at all...

Now seriously, since this topic is active:

Was the arc of IS lrms recently lowered? Havent seen any patch notes but I have seen lower arc in this challenge?
(yes, I know ninja LRM trick)

[BigFatGator]

Escef, on 24 August 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

Have you seen how fast a BLR can go? Provided you're willing to drop the c-bills into an XL, you can easily get an ALRM50 BLR-1S to pace a heavy with a stock engine.

True, and that is probably the best use of a BLR1S, but you have a 85T mech carrying only five more tubes than this ALRM45 JM6-A: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...beffc36364d3ec6

The advantage of the BLR is more armor, 1T more ammo, and 5LRM, but is that worth the extra 20T and taking up an assault slot vs. a heavy slot?

The whole debate about helping vs. hurting team is kinda flawed since the right question isn't should a BLR be tanking or supporting, but rather what mech does each pilot bring to the party that works best with their skills and playstyle. We're all helping or hurting our team some based on the mech we pick.

I'm certainly not helping my team taking a RVN 2X or 4X into the fray while I level it out so I can unlock elite on my RVN 3L.

The other bit is that it's a game- if it's fun for you to boat missiles in an Assault, then I guess I've got nothing I can really say against that. Unless you do it in an Atlas. Then I'll call you names probably because that's just wrong.

[Keeshu]

I just glanced through everything here and just wanted to say my opinion on them. Like everyone else says, it depends on the mech you choose and your playstyle.

I've only mastered the Atlases during when 8v8s were still around and haven't touched the other assaults yet. I always used the default engine (except for the Atlas K when I used a few matches in it. Never go XL atlas.). If you are pugging, you will ALWAYS be left behind, unless you are an Atlas D-DC in which case people attract to you like crazy making your team a nicely compact death swarm, unless you are going wildly out of position. Let's just say when 8v8s were around, the battle would be 3/4 done by the time I even get to see an enemy even if I was feeling ballsy and ignored the use of cover so i could run straight at the enemy, so when I started putting in LRMs into my Atlases I always had more damage than everyone else on my team since I could actually shoot at something, and then got to finish people off with the sexy ac/20 + large lasers. So if stuff ever goes back to 8v8 pugging, go LRM (but remember your tubes aren't all that big on the atlas, so you aren't really a LRM boat anyways)

Now, 12v12s are around this is probably a bit different, and it's probably better to have a brawling build since you will be able to reach the front lines in time now. You can probably downgrade the LRMs to SRM 6s, and upgrade your large lasers (or make them PPCs, personally I prefer larges because you'll want some hitscan anti-light weapons) + heatsinks/ammo so no one will ever want to be close to you.
Personally I think if you want to be an LRM boat, you should be something other than an Atlas. Like the Awesome 8R, any Highlander, Battlemaster 1S. I think Atlases are better for brawling. Also, Always go D-DC so you can sneak up on people more easily with ECM, and give some incentive to have some allies help protect you. Assaults are awesome, but without support they are gonna get wrecked. I love it when I see an enemy Dire Wolf all alone, then I can ruin his day without ever being hit while i get to see him get frustrated trying to shoot me, and he never gets to deal any damage (and I've only been playing mediums since clans came out btw).


Edit: I just wanted to mention, maybe I'm just biased, but personally I prefer the Catapult C1 for a LRM boat. It has enough mobility between it's jumpjets and decent running speed to get out of harms way, and has 3-4 medium lasers to scare off lights and finish off people that try to get close to you and you can use a TAG. Assaults will have a harder time staying mobile enough to be able to spot for themselves if the matchmaker decides to be evil and have half the enemy team with ECM.

Edited by Keeshu, 24 August 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Draven Darkshadow]

I use lrms on most of my assault setup mainly to fire at enemy that i can't chase down or hundreds of meters away from closing range.
with 53-57 km with speed tweak the atlas isn't a mech to do that sort of thing. in cqc i have my ac 20s/lb10x/uac5s to rip stuff apart aside from using the usual erll in both arms or one arm at least

judging from the amount of targeting time vs actual direct sight i think we all know most of the time we lock on the target with the target box active

I have both the atlas and the stalker variants mastered of course and hundreds of games with both mech types.

based on my experience i have about 90% of the time trying to close on the target beyond the 270 meter range then rather than in close enough distance to actually use shorter ranged weapons.

while lrms have the blank spot of 181> meters ssrm or srm have a close gap of 270< meters.

I believe that if we did some simple calculations 820 effective range with the lrm vs 270 effective range s-srms or (180 non effective range vs 730 non effective range) seems to answer itself.

of course then you have to contend with close range combat itself when a fast light come at you, but im fairly sure some seasoned players have their own ideas on how to cover that shortcoming one way or another

Edited by Draven Darkshadow, 24 August 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[JC Daxion]

personally, i will boat to an extent, though haven't done so on assaults as of yet..(i still think part of a heavies job is to soak damage, and mediums to a smaller extent) BUT i always have back-up short ranged weapons.. enough to give me at least 20 points of damage.. typically i go with MPL's as they seem to do the most bang for the buck on any light that comes my way. Great weapon for finishing mechs off to to save your AMMO as well, after you stripped um good with 4-5 volley's


that said, I always appreciate an assault, that plays that dual roll. Hits hard from range, then moves in to help soak and give another target.. Half the time people don't even no what the mechs are carring, and in many places, if you position right, you can soak from one target, while hitting another 180m away. 180 is really not that far... You should beable to do both. LRM's perfect range to me is 225-400.. many maps have areas that big to get into nice big brawls..

Edited by JC Daxion, 24 August 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[ExoForce]

My expirience?

I have put faster engine in my LRM boat. Suddenly I became tip of spear of my team. I took and inflict damage, without enough support from my team.
Reverted to slower engine, softening the enemy first line behind my teammates works fine (I focus on enemy team ECM and assaults and inflict ridiculous damage to enemy).

PUG games only.

Edited by ExoForce, 24 August 2014 - 11:58 AM.