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Clan Balance Update - Feedback


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#101 Sandpit

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:01 PM

View PostKael 17, on 05 September 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Why ask us to test these changes at all if you were going to inflict them as is anyway?

Oddly enough I specifically stated before this that they already know exactly what they're going to do so giving any kind of feedback on this is pointless.

#102 Reno Blade

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:01 PM

The 10vs12 is a reasonable thing to shelve for now.
With the balance of clan and is getting closer, there is no real reason to waste time and it would make no sense.
Thanks for the explanation.

The weapon changes look all quite good.
The clans have a lot more space and tonnage for weapons, while still beeing faster and have better survivability.
If people don't use some space to add heatsinks, but still epect to pack more weapons and stay cooler than a less-equipped is mech, they need to change the builds appropriately!

Oh, your energy boat dishing out 60+ damage will overheat after 1-2 volleys while your IS mech with 30+ will do the same, because you don' have as many DHS? LoL
No reason to ask for a refund or quit playing because your clan mechs are not "much stronger" anymore.

#103 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:03 PM

I'm glad to see this post, it's very informative.

Here are my brief thoughts on the proposed solutions:

1 - Engine damage penalties. Loss of a ST for a cXL should impose +1.00 heat per second (or 10 SHS worth of dissipation), which is how much 2 crits worth of engine shielding causes. Speed reduction is an optional plus that might not be necessary, but could be worth adding if the heat gain isn't sufficient.

2 - IS heat efficiency I'd be reluctant to see unilaterally. As part of an overall heat system rework it'd be great, but desyncing cDHS and DHS seems like a dangerous idea. That said, relating it to #3 should be doable.

3 - This, a thousand times this. Quirks are the best place for inter-chassis and inter-variant balancing, and are a great way to specialize variants in ways that make them stand out even against Clan tech. This would be best accompanied by a further Module system tweak, with further differentiation among Mech modules (sensor and mobility come to mind as categories), which would both allow for much deeper variant differentiation/specialization, as well as incentivise the purchase of more modules than the current system allows (basically you get Radar Deprivation and one other in most cases).

4 - I'd reserve this to the Quirks system, and only for special cases like the Centurion and Hunchback. For broader applications I prefer a general weapon cooldown rework, that pushes some weapons up significantly (Gauss and PPCs come to mind) while others stay at or near current fire rates (Pulse weapons and standard SRMs, for instance).

#104 Apnu

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:06 PM

What I think of skipping 10v12: CRAP.

Sorry PGI, I've defended you and given you the benefit of the doubt for years now. I'm a Founder and a Phoenix package buyer. I'm a dedicated IS pilot and this decision is CRAP!

In case you missed it: CRAP!

Giving clans a different look and sound affects DOES NOT MAKE THEM DIFFERENT FROM INNER SPHERE!

Their combat doctrine and culture plus having more advanced weapons makes them different from the Inner Sphere. The best way to display clan's combat doctrine is to use 10 (two stars) vs. 12 (3 lances).

Your reasons for this are weak:

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UI redesign of the pre-game, scoreboard and end of round screen.

This is a trivial change. You could initiate this in one maybe two patch cycles if you wanted.

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New rules for tie breakers surrounding the uneven team sizes

So what? You should have considered this when planning the clans. You did plan the clans right? But then, how about breaking ties based off scores? Since Clans have fewer, they should get a bump in scoring when they do damage, get kills and assists. Counting just kills is too simplistic.

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Significant re-factoring of the match maker to develop team sizes that don’t match.

I translate this as "math is hard" Of course it is! Computer programming is all math, and its hard! If you didn't have skill in this area you wouldn't be a game developer. Sheesh. You've been avoiding 11 man teams because "math is hard" this is more of the same. Step up and get creative PGI, its what we are paying you for.

Second mistake: having a match maker in the first place. Its dumb, dumb and dumb. Both PGI and players experience no end of MM frustrations, bugs and vagaries. The system is not working! Ditch it. Go to a tiered lobby system. Seriously. You'll have less work to do and everybody will be happier.

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'Mech chassis tonnage balancing will no longer work.

Duh. Clan mechs are supposed to be OP. If you want to balance on math, consider then clan mechs at 10-15 tons heavier than they are. A TBR is supposed to bring the weapons of an assault class mech, so rate it against other IS assaults.

Or if that's too hard here is a simple solution from the table top that will work in this game. Instead of basing your tonnage balancing on 3-3-3-3. Clans should be 3-3-2-2. Done. Simple. Easy.

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Elo will no longer work with 10 vs 12 team calculations.

Your Elo is broken and simple minded. Wake up PGI. Either re-work it or throw it out.
Your "plan of attack" for clan balance is going to fail. I'm calling it right here right now. We can already logically predict what's going to happen. "Balance" will mean there is no significant difference between the tech levels of the weapons. Perhaps some will be lighter but hotter, or some such combination of weight, heat, and range. In the end the only difference will be what the hud looks like and the sound effects.

That's not a difference. Nobody is going to be fooled by it. All the loyal Battletech and Mechwarrior loving fans you're dreaming of making money off? You just pissed us off. And you're not fooling us either. We see through it. We already know what the clans are and how they're supposed to work.

Crap. Its crap, PGI. And it looks like you're scared of the work to even try. I know why, your team is too small. You need more VC and you need to hire more programmers. You've got too big of a game on your hands and not enough crew.

As for your potential changes here's some feed back:

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Clan Heat and Movement penalties if a Right or Left torso is destroyed.

This should already be happening when an engine takes a crit. If an engine takes 3 crits its destroyed. You can track IS damage, but you can't track engine damage? Come on! Of course you can!

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Small increase in IS Mech heat efficiency.

Um why? IS tech is supposed to be inferior to Clan tech.

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Complete IS mech Quirk pass to give more uniqueness and ability when used within their respective roles.

Define roles please. Where is Role Warfare? Also should mech quirks be for the mechs and not a balancing mechanic for clans?

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Increase in IS and Clan mech armor and internal structure if time to death decreases too much.

This should be happening anyway, again has nothing to do with IS v Clan balance. Also you'd solve the issue if you put in mobile repair bays.

#105 Nightmare1

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:08 PM

Clan Mechs have ALWAYS been better than IS Mechs. They should remain so. Quit with all the lousy nerfs PGI, before you reduce the Clans to just another bunch of IS chassis.

...and before someone goes, "Hey look, you bought Clan Mechs so what gives?" I'm a member of an IS Merc Unit. That means I WON'T get to use my Clan Mechs in CW. I bought the Clan Mechs for fun gaming, not competitive play. Having run them extensively, I have arrived at the conclusion that they are not overpowered and are already fairly balanced. I still take non-competitive IS Mechs, such as my HBKs, TDRs, QKDs, BLRs, etc., and score high damage and high kills against Clanners. These nerfs are unnecessary.

I know it's too late to repeal these nerfs now, but they had better be the last ones! I'm afraid that I will not be spending any more money on this game for a very long time, if ever again, due to PGI's inability to safeguard the Clan Mech tradition and respect the quality of the products they have sold to us. There are other pilots who have told me they feel the same way.

#106 Gwydion Ward

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:10 PM

View PostMoonUnitBeta, on 05 September 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

I see, thanks. Good points. Thinking about it now that might have actually been a good place to start too. Their ... "order of operations" has often seemed a bit wonky. However, it appears that we can boat a couple more large lasers now. The heat penalty modifer was reduced from 12 to 4... So hopefully that's a step in the right direction and makes room for some more intuitive balance changes.

Thats the thing though. Im all for the ERLL changes, it finally made them useful again after the first heavy-handed nerf to them (which forced me to change to useign 2 LPL's instead of 2 ERLL's.) Now though, theyve gone and 'Heavy-Handed' nerf'd the LPL's... making THEM nearly useless, and i'll likely go back to using ERLL's again instead.

If i didnt know any better i'd swear they have the 'balance team' from EA working for them...

Dev 1) Hey lets nerf this weapon everyone is using to the point were its useless!.
Dev 2) Hey look!, their all using this weapon instead now.
Dev 1) Great! lets nerf that one now and lower how much of a penalty we had assigned the first one and see if they start using it again!
Dev 3) Hey guys... maybe we should try making changes to the ST instead?

:rolleyes:

#107 Paramemetic

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:10 PM

View Postblackmail, on 05 September 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

well honeslty i think this is the worst thing i have ever seen. Clan mech were more powerful than the IS mechs were and to continually nerf the clan mechs make this a game i no longer support I just wish i could get the money i spent on this game back because i have a better use for it like wiping my ass.

thanks for completely making this a game i no longer want to play.


I paid good money to win, and now that I can't mercilessly stomp other dudes who are helpless, I want that money back because I only play games where I can't lose!!!!!!

#108 Nightmare1

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:15 PM

View PostParamemetic, on 05 September 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

I paid good money to win, and now that I can't mercilessly stomp other dudes who are helpless, I want that money back because I only play games where I can't lose!!!!!!


Clearly, you lack understanding on how to kill Clanners. I can take any of my IS Mechs and roflstomp Clanners in-game. My HBKs are especially adept at slaughtering them.

Simply losing to Clanners because you don't understand how to fight them does not make them overpowered or pay to win. Adapt if you want to survive. That's what I did. Now I can kill Clanners with IS Mechs and Clan Mechs whenever I want.

...But nerfing a cornerstone of MechWarrior until it's no longer a viable foundation support is just flat-out stupid. Sorry PGI, but this is one of your dumbest ideas yet. It ranks right up there with the LRM hyperdrives (remember that guys?) and snake mittens.

#109 Jonathan Paine

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:24 PM

Tremendously disappointed that PGI has decided that everything has to be a 1 to 1 balance. Weight differences has the same internal problems as numeric balance. More so, when some mechs of a given weight are inherently better than others. Using different number of mechs on either team would allow PGI to balance things like uber competitive 12 man players - they would simply have to face off against more enemies. If you cant do 10 Clan vs 12 IS due to so many Elo issues etc, then you will need to make 1 light mech equal to any other mech in the game. We already know that the matchmaker, even in its new incarnation, is incapable of matching similar sized teams.

So hey:

Good luck making the LOCUST equal to any other mech in the game!!!

#110 Maxx Blue

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:25 PM

Heat penalties on loosing a side torso sounds great, although I would generalize it to 'engine crits cause heat/mobility penalties.' It will still end up affecting the clans much more than the IS guys since it is easier to get one or two engine crits on them without killing them outright, but it would also slow down overall DPS just a little as people have to deal with extra heat once thier torso's get opened up and they take one or two engine crits. However, I would hold off on Mobility penalties to start with. Loosing mobility tends to get you killed much faster while heat just slows your DPS. Dying is already too easy, so lets just slow down DPS to start with and add mobility issues if the heat isn't enough.

I would say raise clan weapon heat across the board rather than making IS mechs more heat efficient...unless what you meant was loweing IS weapon heat, in which case that would also be OK.

IS should have a full quirk pass reagardless of any balance issues, so definitely do that.

I would be willing to consider a further armor/structure inflation, but if possible I would confine it to the torso sections to start with. I WANT arms and legs to pop off before a mech finally dies. However, ammo-per-ton would need to be increased so that ammo tonnage requirements to finish a drop don't get any crazier than they are now.

Edited by Maxx Blue, 05 September 2014 - 01:27 PM.


#111 LyskTrevise

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:31 PM

Quote

10v12

We have come to the conclusion that, for the foreseeable future, this is NOT a viable option for MWO, here are some of the reasons why:
  • UI redesign of the pre-game, scoreboard and end of round screen.
  • New rules for tie breakers surrounding the uneven team sizes
  • Significant re-factoring of the match maker to develop team sizes that don’t match.
  • 'Mech chassis tonnage balancing will no longer work.
  • Elo will no longer work with 10 vs 12 team calculations.
These elements alone (not including other edge cases) represent at least several additional weeks, if not months, into refactoring and testing time before they would be ready for deployment. That is time that will directly impact the development and delivery of CW modules 2+.




But perhaps more importantly than that, if we went down this path the overall message to the community is basically “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.


I agree that abandoning 10v12 is the best course of action. There are an abundance of features that the community desperately needs, first and foremost being Community Warfare. If more in-depth features and a better end-game competitive scene mean abandoning 10v12, then so be it.

This game should be more than just team death match in robots, as good as that already is.

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Balancing Plan

At this point we cannot make the statement that we have a picture perfect solution to IS vs Clan balance, but we do have a solid plan of attack. First off just knowing that we are going to exist within a 12v12 environment is one of the major decisions we were waiting to make, and now that it has been decided, we can chip away at the problem.

The first step is to release this latest round of Clan weapon changes this week. We HOPE this is the last Clan weapon nerfs we will have to implement. Not because we feel like this will be enough, (in fact we know that it will not) but in an effort to keep the unique feeling of the clan mech’s strong we will look to other areas to bridge the rest of the gap.


First of all, its very humble to admit "Hey, we don't have all the answers, but we're trying." I applaud you for this bit of honesty.

Second, the balance changed in some areas are the wrong direction. For example, the strength of the C-ERSL is its light weight and power, while sacrificing range. However, now the range practicially makes it useless. On the majority of maps combat will happen at around 300-500m and up to two to three times those numbers at the start of that match. This makes the C-ERSL unviable for any of the clan mechs, given their base speeds. Why not just reduce the damage by say, 0.5 - 1 points, and keep the range the same? As it stands now, the Clan Small Pulse Laser has the same range as its small laser counter-part which doesnt really make a whole lot of sense, given the precedence set by the other pulse lasers in the game.

That being said, some areas are absolutely on the right track. The problem with the C-ERLL was not the damage, or the beam duration, or any of those things, but instead it was the range. The ability to deal damage at nearly 2000m was invaluable, and many competitive teams would do nothing but boat these C-ERLL and hold up in some far off location where they could fire with impunity, until by the time you were close enough to do any damage, you were already nearly dead.

Furthermore, a lot of people will feel better about these changes if some other issues were fixed with the Clan mechs, such as the C-AC/# weapons being completely useless at the moment. Perhaps instead of focusing on nerfing one weapons system, you should make the others more useful. The clan mechs already can not reliably use the C-ERPPC, which leaves them with Gauss Rifles (too heavy for a lot of mechs), or the UACs (useless unless boated, see: Dire Wolf).

What I'm trying to get at is this: With the other weapons so deficient, where else do you expect them to go except to the C-Lasers?

Quote

Such as the following POTENTIAL changes:
  • Clan Heat and Movement penalties if a Right or Left torso is destroyed.
  • Small increase in IS Mech heat efficiency.
  • Complete IS mech Quirk pass to give more uniqueness and ability when used within their respective roles.
  • Increase in IS and Clan mech armor and internal structure if time to death decreases too much.
Our plan is to begin this plan of attack on the balance of the game this weekend with the implementation of the latest Clan weapon changes and then continue on with the other items systematically over the course of the next couple of months. With this command chair post shared with the public future updates on this subject should be possible much more frequently to discuss our progress.



Well, I would say that first of all, IS mech quirks are always welcome. I think they are a great idea that so far has been squandered on all mechs except the Awesome.

Second, I disagree with -any- heat efficiency boosts, in a game where assault mechs such as the legendary Atlas can be ripped apart by just one or two mechs with a couple of gauss rifles, or in the case of the clan mechs, the incredibly powerful laser boat timber wolves or storm crows. It is true that TTK being fast or slow does not change player skill: good players are still good, and bad players are still bad. HOWEVER, the game as it stands now is too twitch-like, I don't want to compare it to that -other- robot game, but it doesnt feel quite like it used to. If we think back to closed beta before the introduction of Double Heat Sinks and the other upgrades, players had to think extremely carefully about how to manage their heat, how many heat sinks to bring versus how much firepower, or if they brought additional firepower, when was the right time to go all-out versus conserving heat to continue outputting damage. That felt right. That felt like a 'mech-sim. Now, players simply alpha strike (many times more than once before hitting high heat levels), then wait for the heat to dissipate before alpha striking again. Given that there are now more mechs than ever on the battlefield and the efficiency of the 'mech builds people can come up with, the TTK has never been lower. Let's get back to heat management, please!

Clan heat and movement penalties if a torso is destroyed i think is a great unique feature, however, i caution you to think about the new player experience and how new players that come into the game will learn about this effect.

Complete IS and Clan mech armor and internal structure increases are the best fix to low TTK. I would argue that a doubling of all mech healths is in order again. See my above paragraph regarding TTK and Heat.

The game is great guys, and even though you are taking a lot of flak, at least you're trying to make the best game you can.

Cheers.

#112 Budor

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:33 PM

Looks like a solid plan. We will see what is delivered though.

The changes to small and medium pulse lasers are to severe imo., just look how much use IS pulse lasers get.

Edited by Budor, 05 September 2014 - 01:34 PM.


#113 Karkland

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:33 PM

The proposed changes sound potentially promising, particularly expanding IS quirks and an increase in IS mech heat efficiency (such as removing the old nerfs to IS medium and small laser heat).

Also, what Koniving said.

#114 CyclonerM

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:36 PM

View PostWeaselball, on 05 September 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:


You're clearly not thinking like someone who wants this game to succeed outside of the limited scope of the ultra-hardcore tabletop players.

Exactly. if that was financially viable, i would totally be for that. I want a MechWarrior game, based on Battletech.

View PostGyrok, on 05 September 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:


What salvage? You mean the salvage bonus for winning that could remain the same?



I would be willing to wait an extra 4 months if it meant 10 vs 12 was viable.

Indeed.

#115 Doctor Proctor

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:38 PM

View PostRedDragon, on 05 September 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

God, I'd really love to see how the Star Craft fan base would react if in the next iteration a single Zergling could win against a single Marine. Because, you know, to hell with lore. It's all about minimizing work for the Devs so we can get our most minimum viable product. Who needs fluff and deep game play when we can make everything the same?


Apples and Oranges, and exactly the sort of problem I was talking about. In Star Craft your unit attack each other automatically with predetermined loadouts and at exact pace and damage values. Therefore, you can balance a couple Zerglings to one Space Marine by giving them say, half the HP and half the damage.

In MWO, however, you don't have auto attacking units that follow precise prescripted attack sequences with known values. Instead you have pilots each in their fully customizable mechs firing when the decide to with whatever weapons they choose. This is MUCH harder to balance as it's not just a simple matter of making the Clan mechs X% stronger to compensate for the lower numbers.

Not to mention the fact that in Star Craft a Zergling is but one of many units that a player controls. Losing a single Zergling doesn't really affect a player that much, and in many cases may be part of a strategy for an overall win. In MWO, however, each mech is piloted by a player. If I'm in my Hunchback and turn a corner into a single Nova, I now that in 10v12 I've already lost because he's X% more powerful than me and should flat out beat in a 1v1 fight since ton for ton he's in a superior mech. Then I can sit out the rest of the round, unable to play anymore. That's not really fun at all. Neither is the Nova turning a corner into a 2v1 because you have superior numbers.

#116 Gyrok

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:39 PM

View PostWeaselball, on 05 September 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:


The point went way over your head, as usual. But keep crying that PGI is finally balancing clan mechs out as they had originally stated they would.


Actually, my point went way over your head a long time ago...

You cannot fathom that anyone would want to play a game balanced in such a manner because it does not make sense to you.

However, you are not some of the other people in the world who understand what it would take to do something like that. So, the fact that the concept escapes you is actually not at all surprising...you have no clan mechs, you do not understand.

#117 BOWMANGR

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:40 PM

Everything seems good for me.

If they increased Time To Kill like yesterday I would be even happier.

Also, MOAR heavy-impact quirks please, especially for mechs that you can plainly see from your telemetry that are underperformers.

I would prefer the 10vs12 approach but totally understand that it would create a ton of problems to solve regarding MMaking, balance, salvage balance and UI changes. Now we need to make clear to butthurt Clan players that balance is more important than lore any day for an online deathmatch game. This is not a novel or a TT table.

#118 Wrath and Fury

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:44 PM

Ok so let me get this straight. Your plan is to: (including today's patch)

- increase the heat of clan weapons
- possibly apply MORE heat and movement penalties to already high heat, slow moving, mechs with a torso destruction
- Make IS more ridiculously heat efficient than they already are.

Does this sound about right?

It's funny. As soon as clans were released (the same day in fact) people were bitching about them. Now, after a few months IS players have adapted and are now crushing clan mechs on a regular basis. Yet your plan is to make clan mechs even worse than they are already? Seriously? Have you been paying attention at all or was nerfing them after collecting from your cash cow the plan all along?

#119 NocturnalBeast

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:52 PM

Do not, I repeat, do not increase armor or internal structure any more than it is now for any mech, all this will do is make people stand in place and have a pillow fight. Increasing armor or internals will also make the "role warfare" that you keep talking about pointless, since we will all just take the biggest guns possible to get kills as quickly as possible. This is a bad idea, that only the worst, most inept players truely want.

View PostWrath and Fury, on 05 September 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Ok so let me get this straight. Your plan is to: (including today's patch)

- increase the heat of clan weapons
- possibly apply MORE heat and movement penalties to already high heat, slow moving, mechs with a torso destruction
- Make IS more ridiculously heat efficient than they already are.

Does this sound about right?

It's funny. As soon as clans were released (the same day in fact) people were bitching about them. Now, after a few months IS players have adapted and are now crushing clan mechs on a regular basis. Yet your plan is to make clan mechs even worse than they are already? Seriously? Have you been paying attention at all or was nerfing them after collecting from your cash cow the plan all along?


No, their intent is for clan mechs to be clan mechs in name and a appearance only apparently.

#120 Syncline

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:54 PM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 05 September 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

  • Clan Heat and Movement penalties if a Right or Left torso is destroyed.
  • Small increase in IS Mech heat efficiency.
  • Complete IS mech Quirk pass to give more uniqueness and ability when used within their respective roles.
  • Increase in IS and Clan mech armor and internal structure if time to death decreases too much.


I'm 100% in favor of making Clan mechs behave differently from IS mechs; these possible changes should have been implemented before mucking around with Clan weapons. Your current philosophy of balancing Clan tech by altering the performance of the weapons is making the weapons less fun to use. Un-fun weapons equals un-fun mechs and fewer viable builds.

You've essentially killed the Nova and made other mechs which rely on "bread and butter" weapons like the C-ERSmall and C-ERMedium lasers far less fun to use. We're already seeing more LRM boats because of this latest round of nerfs. I don't know about you, but I think putting even more LRM boats on the battlefield makes the entire game more un-fun for everyone.

Give Clan mechs unique negative quirks which IS mechs don't have to deal with. Your "lost side torso, increased heat" idea is a fabulous one. Do things like this to bring Clan tech in line with IS tech, not arbitrary weapon performance nerfs. Clan weapons are supposed to feel powerful, but right now they feel like little children we have to delicately coddle lest they crap all over the place and scream incessantly.

Edited by Syncline, 05 September 2014 - 01:55 PM.






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