271 replies to this topic

[Tremendous Upside]

While this will probably get me the ban hammer as well... I'm going to ask it anyway? With the increased concern over forum decorum, what's going to be done (if anything) to address the problems with behavior within the game itself? To me, it seems far worse with the way some players act when they end up on teams that tank or rage over not being supported and get their faces shot off making poor decisions. The tirades in game are far worse than what typically shows up on these forums, and I see them virtually every night.

The very "worst" abuse of this that I've wittnessed was by someone prominent within the community that went into full rant mode - profanity and racist comments through 2/3s of the game simply because he turned the wrong corner and got plastered. If "most" of the MWO community doesn't frequent the forums, I'd think that'd be at least every bit as much of a concern... There has to be more that PGI can do than expect the players to police themselves. You're not trusting that to work here.

[TLBFestus]

It's asinine If you go about banning people for what they say on other Forums. That is draconian in the extreme.

See, the thing is that the Moderators won't even have to go out looking for people bad mouthing this game because the White Knight Fan Boys will fan out among the other forums, frothing at the mouth to report "violators". Some of these posts may be by aliases, or taken names to boot.

Sorry, but stick to banning people for content on YOUR forums, not others. Id' drop this game in a a heartbeat if the Moderation becomes that biased and unfair. War Z (Survivor Infestation Stories these days) had overzealous moderation that stifled ANY criticism of that game and I left it. This would be no different.

[Kilo 40]

Banky, on 07 September 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

While this will probably get me the ban hammer as well... I'm going to ask it anyway? With the increased concern over forum decorum, what's going to be done (if anything) to address the problems with behavior within the game itself? To me, it seems far worse with the way some players act when they end up on teams that tank or rage over not being supported and get their faces shot off making poor decisions. The tirades in game are far worse than what typically shows up on these forums, and I see them virtually every night.

The very "worst" abuse of this that I've wittnessed was by someone prominent within the community that went into full rant mode - profanity and racist comments through 2/3s of the game simply because he turned the wrong corner and got plastered. If "most" of the MWO community doesn't frequent the forums, I'd think that'd be at least every bit as much of a concern... There has to be more that PGI can do than expect the players to police themselves. You're not trusting that to work here.

simple. report those players.

[Tremendous Upside]

Kilo 40, on 07 September 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

simple. report those players.

No offense... but you're missing my point. Being dead honest, if I had to "report" every time I had people raging in games and being abusive through the in-game chat, there'd be nights I'd be sending in reports as frequently as dropping into matches. I don't have any interest in having "that" responsibility. My point is that if you're cracking down on behavior here on the forums - where supposedly most players don't visit regularly, I simply feel there should be an emphasis on trying to eliminate that within the game itself. There are any number of options to get to that point. Cut communication between teams and the "dead pool". Put a filter on the in-game chat... etc.

All I'm saying is that it seems kind of contradictory to support a no-tolerance or tighter policy on the forums when abusive behavior is just as (if not more) common within the game itself.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I wouldn't say contradictory. more like be fair in all regards not just the forums.

[slide]

Although this isn't technically to do with moderation it does have a lot to do with communication which ultimately has a lot to do with moderation in the end so please here (read) me out.

Probably the single most frustrating thing from this side of the screen is the lack of info that comes out of PGI, on all fronts. Snippets from Russ on twitter don't count in this case. As the military is fond of quoting "a lack of information will get you killed". With the exception of Karl Bergs mega thread and the posts from Niko we hear almost nothing about the game or it's direction until patch day or the day before when a heap of stuff is dumped unannounced often causing the forums to erupt in flame.

What I suggest is this. Find 10 of your staff from different areas assign them a day once a fortnight where they have to post something up about what they are currently working on in MWO. It should take less than an hour out of their work fortnight but would engender a lot of good will within the community much as Karls thread has.

It doesn't have to be much and I will give some examples.

Karl (already does this anyway) talks about the match maker
Flying Debris posts a picture of an upcoming mech.
Web Guru talks about hit improvements or how much data went through the data centre
Statistics guy talks about how many Atlai died to LRM's this week
Map designer posts a picture of the layout of a new map or a new building or other prop.
Mech designer posts a picture of a mechs weapons mounted on an arm (try to guess the mech it's attached to)
Paul could talk about some match statistics and how they affect balance from what he sees etc.
UI guy could talk about up coming changes to the map display.

I am not saying you should give the whole game away, but trying to generate some enthusiasm for the game is much better than treating us like mushrooms until patch day.

Here's how it could work!

Week 1 - Flying Debris - design asked me to come up with some ideas for a Hellbringer (Loki) heres a rough sketch.
Week 3 - Flying Debris - here's a more complete drawing of the Hellbringer complete with drop ship in background.
Week 5 - Mech Modeller - here's a rough look at Flying Debris Hellbringer design in 3D.
Week 6 - Art Department - This is what the cockpit will look like
Week 8 - Mech modeller - This is what the cammo patterns will look like
Week 10 - QA dept. - 30 second video of Hellbringer on the field
Week 12 - Hellbringer released in patch.

How many more Hellbringers will you sell once people are excited about it?
And while all this is happening you could be developing the Shadow Cat in silence and spring it on us as a nice surprise.

I would think this would generate so much interest and constructive conversation that is would keep even the most ardent PGI haters at bay.

And would you please announce info on this forum first, not everyone does twitter or face book.

[Kilo 40]

Banky, on 07 September 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

No offense... but you're missing my point. Being dead honest, if I had to "report" every time I had people raging in games and being abusive through the in-game chat, there'd be nights I'd be sending in reports as frequently as dropping into matches. I don't have any interest in having "that" responsibility. My point is that if you're cracking down on behavior here on the forums - where supposedly most players don't visit regularly, I simply feel there should be an emphasis on trying to eliminate that within the game itself. There are any number of options to get to that point. Cut communication between teams and the "dead pool". Put a filter on the in-game chat... etc.

All I'm saying is that it seems kind of contradictory to support a no-tolerance or tighter policy on the forums when abusive behavior is just as (if not more) common within the game itself.

first off, abusive behavior in game is no where near as bad as on the forums. second, moderating in game chat is a whole different animal form moderating forums.

but sure, some profanity filters and whatnots wouldn't hurt. especially when it comes to thng like racial/homophobic comments in game.

[Roland]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

You're right, on it's own it seems awkward. A few of my links didn't hook properly into my OP after fixing a copy error. I figure I can do one better than dropping a whole bunch of links though: https://www.google.c...=forum+toxicity
or https://www.google.c...+dev+harassment

We are by no measure the only game dealing with toxic behavior, which was my intent to point out. Others have faced far, far worse on great scales, we've thankfully been limited to our worst being a handful of death threats towards staff I'll spare the details, though I don't think the severity is what matters here. Harassment is harassment.

Certainly, harassment is unacceptable. Things like death threats against developers should be handled with a zero tolerance policy. The same goes for any kind of personal attack or threat against them as a person.

But that does not extend to attacking their performance as a professional.

If someone is doing a bad job, then telling them so is not harassment. Things which make you feel bad are not harassment. Part of being a professional means being responsible for your actions and decisions in your profession.

If players believe that some member of staff is problematic to the development of the game, their pointing it out is not harassment.

[Kilo 40]

Roland, on 07 September 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Certainly, harassment is unacceptable. Things like death threats against developers should be handled with a zero tolerance policy. The same goes for any kind of personal attack or threat against them as a person.

But that does not extend to attacking their performance as a professional.

If someone is doing a bad job, then telling them so is not harassment. Things which make you feel bad are not harassment. Part of being a professional means being responsible for your actions and decisions in your profession.

If players believe that some member of staff is problematic to the development of the game, their pointing it out is not harassment.

lets be real here.

The people in question were not just pointing out that someone was doing a bad job. claiming otherwise is either dishonest or plain ignorant.

[Haydin]

I'd personally like to see more devs chiming in on threads. Now, they don't have to be the most active members of the forums, but having them chime in every now and then in some of the more popular threads would be nice.

I'm also of the opinion that consistent moderation policy is best, but have some sort of appeal process. As long as someone who feels like a system has misevaluated their situation has a chance to defend themselves, I think that's the fairest method.

I also don't mind the information about bans being more public. If a ban was made unjustly, it's easier to see. If someone got justly banned and is claiming otherwise, it's easier for the community to see they're full of crap.

And some ideas on positive moderation: consider featuring some especially intelligent or valuable on the front page, or in a special section. Maybe give mods the final say in spotlighting them, but also have an option to flag the posts as especially good, and bring them to mod attention? Other options of rewards you could look at would be special flairs, premium time, or maybe even in-game cockpit items or something.

Edited by Haydin, 07 September 2014 - 09:06 PM.

[Roland]

Kilo 40, on 07 September 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

lets be real here.

The people in question were not just pointing out that someone was doing a bad job. claiming otherwise is either dishonest or plain ignorant.

That many certainly be true. My statement was not in regards to any specific poster, but rather a general statement.

[WarHippy]

I have been around here for a long time now and I feel I have done my best to be fair to the devs and the other posters despite my sometimes clear frustration with the things that are going on. The idea of new draconian moderation really makes me want to leave the forums because it comes off as an attempt to prevent criticism that while harsh is fairly deserved, and it comes off as a subtle threat to those not towing the company line. While I despise twitter and reddit I may have to spend time on those communication outlets instead because I feel both unwanted here with these changes and denied the opportunity to see and participate in feedback that isn't approved by the powers that be. That being said unless Russ comes out with some masterful silver tongued oration during the town hall I my just be gone period. I honestly find the timing of this moderation blitz and what appears to be coming resource drain highly unsavory.

[RobinSage]

This topic has been a long time in the coming.....the MWO gaming community is going to be for the better because of this very important announcement.

The community sours when the community spends more time flaming others....devising ways to exploit the game or new members of the game community via forums, in game, etc.

Pugs and new players have always been welcome to join comms and greater influence the community through organized play, joining teams, etc. Such as community run voice comms like NA Comstar an NGNG. There is also wide support for the mech building community like Smurfy's.

As a whole I've seen this community change since the Alpha/Closed beta sessions, I believe in some ways it has gotten better.....but as a whole the history of the MWO forums and support for the moderators has been sketchy. I think a lot of the animosity stems from the PC gamer media as a whole, the criticisms and reviews in most cases were not accurately showing the diverse fan base and community support this game has. And many of the people causing the issues on the forums are like Niko said, repeat offenders.

Support for this is industry wide. Most of the AAA game studios and their publishers have to deal with open threats against their characters, companies and their games everyday. It certainly never helps if your customers are badmouthing other players, badmouthing teams for no reason but to flame and cause chaos, or are not welcoming to newer players.

Any actions that interfere with the enjoyment of other players (all players have the right to a friendly game experience....read your EULA and Terms) should be reported and punishable upon a case-by-case investigation. As "swatting" and mass reporting are more common. False reports take the development teams' time and resources.....but having good moderation on the forums is much appreciated.

I think this is a great step in the right direction for PGI and the MWO community. THANKS NIKO.

[Tethyss]

Moderate away, it's your forum.

However, you seek to correct a problem you do not truly understand. There is little to no 'discussion' going on with the devs, as evidenced by the current state of the game. I am all but openly mocked when I send in a support email regarding in game balance issues. I email because there's zero feedback coming by way of the forums.

I think if you take some time to consider the customer's point of view a lot of these forum moderation issues will go away.

[Escef]

Back in the day, the DCI (the organization that regulated sanctioned play of Magic: the Gathering) used to make publicly available the entire list of who was currently banned, for how long, and why. Most of the offenses were for cheating, and relatively short. A few were for theft, and were several months to a handful of years. There were one or two lifetime bans, for fighting and death threats. They don't anymore, probably because they used people's real names and probably were worried about potential lawsuits.

As for how the "Name&Shame" policy stands right now, I'm not wild about it. We really should be able contrast the number of likes a user's posts have gotten (somehow or another I'm over 1900 at this point) with their moderation history (mine's relatively light, but I'm also no saint and not one to passively take insults and abuse, so, yeah, I've made work for the mods a few times).

Edited by Escef, 07 September 2014 - 10:00 PM.

[Mad Pig]

Make it so.

[Crunk Prime]

RobinSage, on 07 September 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

False reports take the development teams' time and resources.....but having good moderation on the forums is much appreciated.

I agree. Far too many people report trivial complaints and "report bomb" players which takes time away from valuable moderator time they could be spending on actual problems.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

See classic PGI; not only has this thread and the likes been altered...but the new game thread as well.

You asked for questions; got them; didn't like them and now instead of answering them from the single thread your set up because you closed all others you now want people to turn up to a QnA and ask them again?

In blind hope your critics won't bother to turn out I guess.

[fil5000]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

Edit: Seems a V.Mod un-approved a couple of posts that I'd rather stay up because they elicit my point wonderfully. They should be visible again. Cheers!

Which perhaps suggests there needs to be better coordination between moderators, especially in a high traffic, highly charged thread like this one.

[MasterBLB]

I was an Regional Game Master for Operation7 (and forum moderator too),so I can confirm few-steps penalty system is a good thing.However,each punishable action must be explicitly mentioned,and precisely defined to make it work and prevent possible abuse.

The other thing,however is how you Nikolai and the dev team treat us.There is no dialog between devs and players at all,the way it is happens is as follows:
1) You Nikolai,Russ or Paul announce some change/upgrade and ask for feedback in a thread.
2) Usually the change mess the game more and players are generally upset.But always few good solutions how to ease the nerf while keeping devs' desired direction are posted.
3) Devs shows they have in arse what the players think and make the announced change without regarding any concerns raised in the feedback thread.
4) Players are really pissed off and write bad things about devs,here and in other forums.
5) The circle repeats.

I've seen such steps in 2012,in 2013 I've got into retirement,and in 2014 I've returned and see nothing has changed.
As long as there will be no dialog (dialog,I repeat) between players and developers,and no rollback of some irrelevant design decision don't expect players will stop to show their disappointment.Ultimately,you'll ban majority of us,and the rest will stop paying.

And you personally Nikolai,are good example how you care about - I've sent you 3 PMs since 30.08 asking for help,yet you don't care to read them.