543 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

As a relatively new player, started playing in May I think, my experiences of development since then is positive. I like most balance changes (my exception in the csl/cspl nerf that was too much of a nerf to Nova brawlers) and things have been delivered as promised. And I'm not going to internalize the vitriol over past failures and drama that I haven't been through, even if I do understand the bitterness of founders that feel cheated on their investment during the bad years.

Now my main concern with this new game is that I think it is going to fail, and that it may harm MW:O when it does. It's not that I want it to fail, it would be great if it succeeded. But a space MMO sandbox, without anything in the concept really standing out, starting deveopment now with Elite around the corner and Star Citizen well underway both run by much bigger teams, I just don't see it being a sound business opportunity to try and compete with them on their own terms.

A unique new game concept is needed, for example let's say a MMO space TBS in the style of space empires with updated graphics. Or a truly next gen combined arms battletech TBS instead of the pokemech failure that was MW:T. Or why not using MW:O assets to jumstart a Mechwarrior 5 SP campaign? Whatever, but trying to leech of off an idea that is already overhyped in Elite and SC...nah.

Not that I really care about the new game either way, just worried that there will be money wasted in it's failure and that that loss if big could hurt MW:O.

Other that that I'm thrilled for CW, the current plan sounds great. Deliver on that promise on those dates and I'll be happy.

[oldradagast]

Sjorpha, on 12 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

As a relatively new player, started playing in May I think, my experiences of development since then is positive. I like most balance changes (my exception in the csl/cspl nerf that was too much of a nerf to Nova brawlers) and things have been delivered as promised. And I'm not going to internalize the vitriol over past failures and drama that I haven't been through, even if I do understand the bitterness of founders that feel cheated on their investment during the bad years.

Now my main concern with this new game is that I think it is going to fail, and that it may harm MW:O when it does. It's not that I want it to fail, it would be great if it succeeded. But a space MMO sandbox, without anything in the concept really standing out, starting deveopment now with Elite around the corner and Star Citizen well underway both run by much bigger teams, I just don't see it being a sound business opportunity to try and compete with them on their own terms.

A unique new game concept is needed, for example let's say a MMO space TBS in the style of space empires with updated graphics. Or a truly next gen combined arms battletech TBS instead of the pokemech failure that was MW:T. Or why not using MW:O assets to jumstart a Mechwarrior 5 SP campaign? Whatever, but trying to leech of off an idea that is already overhyped in Elite and SC...nah.

Not that I really care about the new game either way, just worried that there will be money wasted in it's failure and that that loss if big could hurt MW:O.

Other that that I'm thrilled for CW, the current plan sounds great. Deliver on that promise on those dates and I'll be happy.

Good point.

While I wish PGI luck since if they fail, MWO dies, their new game trailer looked like the height of generic. Pretty graphics - which is nice, but alone won't sell a game these days - and a generic storyline. I guess the part about being haunted by the past and choosing one's humanity stood out a bit, but still... they are stepping into the arena against Star Citizen and Elite, as well as Eve, and probably others. It's like a Trial Hunchback going up against a fully-leveled Dire Wolf...

[Bishop Steiner]

oldradagast, on 12 September 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

I have to call bunk on this. The Clans were not "fine." In IS vs. Clan testing, the Clan teams won 90% of the games. A Clan mech of any tonnage has equal armor and about 50% more firepower than the IS equivalent, effectively for free. And, all of them aside from Clan Lights are usually faster than their IS equivalent as well... and Clan Lights, while slower, pack Medium level firepower.

I'm not saying the usual heavy-handed and often random nerfs were the solution - they've still done nothing to address the real time to kill problems - and arguments can be made about the ethics of selling pay-to-win mechs and then nerfing them once they are available for the free-to-play players, but Clan mechs were NOT "fine" as is.

Results on that were slightly skewed though, too, so I can actually agree with both sides, some

Clans indeed dominated. And a lot of Clantech ws OP'd to various degrees. Some, also were UP, like their ACs, which are universally inferior to the IS versions. Some are more of a wash than people care to admit, as people learned with the IS ER LArge Laser nerf (since reduced) that yes timmy, Beam Duration actually IS a big deal.

But all that aside, the results were also skewed. Primarily by: Timberowlf, and specifically, TWolf-S. Remember those results were pre JJ nerf. And all the Compies were streaking about in Timbertarts. Backing those up were nearly as broken Stormcrows. And really, 1 single build of the Direwolf, the "Meta-Whale".

But realsitically, go compare the Adder, Kit Fox and Summoner. Even pre nerf, none were as good, as their IS counterparts. Even the Nova and Warhawk, which one could argue as equal, were qual, situationally. Now? All 5 chassis are actually on average, inferior to the IS.

And laughably, the Twolf and DireWhale are essentially unscathed by the changes.

[oldradagast]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

Results on that were slightly skewed though, too, so I can actually agree with both sides, some

Clans indeed dominated. And a lot of Clantech ws OP'd to various degrees. Some, also were UP, like their ACs, which are universally inferior to the IS versions. Some are more of a wash than people care to admit, as people learned with the IS ER LArge Laser nerf (since reduced) that yes timmy, Beam Duration actually IS a big deal.

But all that aside, the results were also skewed. Primarily by: Timberowlf, and specifically, TWolf-S. Remember those results were pre JJ nerf. And all the Compies were streaking about in Timbertarts. Backing those up were nearly as broken Stormcrows. And really, 1 single build of the Direwolf, the "Meta-Whale".

But realsitically, go compare the Adder, Kit Fox and Summoner. Even pre nerf, none were as good, as their IS counterparts. Even the Nova and Warhawk, which one could argue as equal, were qual, situationally. Now? All 5 chassis are actually on average, inferior to the IS.

And laughably, the Twolf and DireWhale are essentially unscathed by the changes.

Agreed.

Long story short: I am NOT in favor of random changes and across the board nerfs, but the best Clan mechs are (or at least were pre-nerf) far superior to IS equivalents. On the other hand, some of the Clan mechs are actually UNDER-powered. Then, again, most of the IS mechs are also rather bad, so they have plenty of company in that regard. The over-powered ones, however, can more than carry the team, resulting in consistent victories over IS mechs.

What is needed is MECH balance, not weapon nerfs. Use quirks and such to fix the underpowered mechs vs. tossing around things like extra heat as a "fix" when the real problems are usually cool-running ballistics boats (which don't care about heat.)

[Sprouticus]

Breeder, on 11 September 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

@Sprouticus
I think it's a very bad business idea to upset the customers, don't you think? Actually I'm not that mad at all, but I can understand why some people are, considering how much money they dumped in MWO.

You missed the point of my post.

Yes they made decisions that made people unhappy. But with a rabod fan base like BT/MW, it is literally impossible to make everyone happy. What makes person X unhappy, makes person Y happy and person Z doesnt care about.


PGI is making their own game. Like I said previously, any reaction that implies that you have ownership of the title is foolhardy.

Your only REAL voice is your $$ and time. If you are that upset, dont play. If you are not upset enough to not play, you can TRY to change things, but expecting your voice to be heard is simply unreasonable. You simply hope that it is.

If enough people hollar, there is definitely more chance of changes occuring. But PGI in general and Paul in particular is not very willing to listen. You can let that get you mad, but it really serves no purpose to do so. PGI has also shown that even concerted efforts to rally community into a coherent fource to exert pressure does not impact them.


Which means in the end you are left 2 choices

Accept it and play
Don't play.

Every other choice is pointless and basically makes you a troll. Complaining on the board constantly, screaming, pouting, etc. That makes you a troll.

NOTE: Whether this is a wise business move, and what level of influence the community should have is another discussion. I personally think you are correct that it is a fairly poor move when the vast majority of your audience wants something fixed and you ignore them. But that does not change what our options as customers are...

[Tombstoner]

oldradagast, on 12 September 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Agreed.

Long story short: I am NOT in favor of random changes and across the board nerfs, but the best Clan mechs are (or at least were pre-nerf) far superior to IS equivalents. On the other hand, some of the Clan mechs are actually UNDER-powered. Then, again, most of the IS mechs are also rather bad, so they have plenty of company in that regard. The over-powered ones, however, can more than carry the team, resulting in consistent victories over IS mechs.

What is needed is MECH balance, not weapon nerfs. Use quirks and such to fix the underpowered mechs vs. tossing around things like extra heat as a "fix" when the real problems are usually cool-running ballistics boats (which don't care about heat.)

And they should stay that way. The only way to balance the clans is uplift the IS with more star league tech. and overwhelming numbers..... think The battle of tukiad.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Tombstoner, on 12 September 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

And they should stay that way. The only way to balance the clans is uplift the IS with more star league tech. and overwhelming numbers..... think The battle of tukiad.

What about people's concerns for overall TTK's being too fast. Buffing everything as a solution to give people the satisfaction of bigger numbers does nothing but make the game more point and click, pin point, twitch game.

People need to really understand when and where to apply percentages and ratios.

[buttmonkey]

Sjorpha, on 12 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

As a relatively new player, started playing in May I think, my experiences of development since then is positive. I like most balance changes (my exception in the csl/cspl nerf that was too much of a nerf to Nova brawlers) and things have been delivered as promised. And I'm not going to internalize the vitriol over past failures and drama that I haven't been through, even if I do understand the bitterness of founders that feel cheated on their investment during the bad years.

Now my main concern with this new game is that I think it is going to fail, and that it may harm MW:O when it does. It's not that I want it to fail, it would be great if it succeeded. But a space MMO sandbox, without anything in the concept really standing out, starting deveopment now with Elite around the corner and Star Citizen well underway both run by much bigger teams, I just don't see it being a sound business opportunity to try and compete with them on their own terms.

A unique new game concept is needed, for example let's say a MMO space TBS in the style of space empires with updated graphics. Or a truly next gen combined arms battletech TBS instead of the pokemech failure that was MW:T. Or why not using MW:O assets to jumstart a Mechwarrior 5 SP campaign? Whatever, but trying to leech of off an idea that is already overhyped in Elite and SC...nah.

Not that I really care about the new game either way, just worried that there will be money wasted in it's failure and that that loss if big could hurt MW:O.

Other that that I'm thrilled for CW, the current plan sounds great. Deliver on that promise on those dates and I'll be happy.

This is my whole point. As I stated in my last post it would have made much more sense to take the MW franchise into space. I hear a lot of people saying they do not care about the new game, but I suspect they would if it was a continuation of the MW:O. This is what I mean when I say that PGI is doomed to fail, because they make stupid decisions like this one we are talking about.

[Sjorpha]

oldradagast, on 12 September 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Agreed.

Long story short: I am NOT in favor of random changes and across the board nerfs, but the best Clan mechs are (or at least were pre-nerf) far superior to IS equivalents. On the other hand, some of the Clan mechs are actually UNDER-powered. Then, again, most of the IS mechs are also rather bad, so they have plenty of company in that regard. The over-powered ones, however, can more than carry the team, resulting in consistent victories over IS mechs.

What is needed is MECH balance, not weapon nerfs. Use quirks and such to fix the underpowered mechs vs. tossing around things like extra heat as a "fix" when the real problems are usually cool-running ballistics boats (which don't care about heat.)

I agree the methods of balancing needs to shift from the weapons, which are IMO approaching a reasonable balance now with some exceptions (looking at you flamer), to the actual mechs which are still extremely unbalanced. Much of that imbalance comes from the fact that it is almost always better to use the heaviest mechs of each weight class. That could be adressed with more quirks, it could also be adressed by making the size and speed scaling more pronounced, so that for example a 45 tonner really did have a noticable hitbox/speed advantage over a 55 tonner etc. Now I feel there is essentially 2 size categories: Lights and the rest, where all 4 categories should be visibly different in size. i think an assault should really feel BIG when viewed from inside a medium.

Regarding clan balance a big culprit seems to be whether a mech has endo and/or ferro, resulting is such weird things as a kit fox having the same pod space as a Nova, with better speed and survivability. And now with the small lasers being a suboptimal choice to medium/med pulse there is no real advantage in the 12 hardpoints either. Things like that should really be adressed, choosing between a Nova and a stormcrow for clan medium should be a real choice. As it stands now you won't see many Novas after cbill stormcrow is out.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Sjorpha, on 12 September 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

I agree the methods of balancing needs to shift from the weapons, which are IMO approaching a reasonable balance now with some exceptions (looking at you flamer), to the actual mechs which are still extremely unbalanced. Much of that imbalance comes from the fact that it is almost always better to use the heaviest mechs of each weight class. That could be adressed with more quirks, it could also be adressed by making the size and speed scaling more pronounced, so that for example a 45 tonner really did have a noticable hitbox/speed advantage over a 55 tonner etc. Now I feel there is essentially 2 size categories: Lights and the rest, where all 4 categories should be visibly different in size. i think an assault should really feel BIG when viewed from inside a medium.

I like your thinking. Especially with the new cooldown modules the last thing we need are more weapon buffs. Decreasing the cooldowns while damage and range thresholds remain the same is a HUGE buff for all they apply to. My conclusion on that is weapons are quite lethal as is.

I am really looking forward to see what they do with the upcoming mech quirks they are talking about. That seems like a step in the right direction for giving a greater sense of purpose and role to many of the chassis out there.

Edited by The Ripper13, 12 September 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[Lacewing]

@Sprouticus
Yes some PGIs decisions were controversial, mostly the balance changes. But there is a difference between those and the dicisions that were the opposite of what was promised and already paid for. It's not easy to say "well **** happens", when the money is already gone. What's happening now in the forums is just the natural reaction to people being deceived.

[Cimarb]

Ultimatum X, on 11 September 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

In the 12 weeks since I received my clan pack, I've played my clan mechs almost all of the time (barring challenges, and just wanting to play a few special IS mechs).

If we figure 12 weeks, and we say 20 to 30 hours a week gaming (let's call it 25) that's (12x25) 300 hours of playing with clan mechs.

240 / 300 = $0.80 cents per hour of entertainment.

And getting cheaper by the day.

My situation is exactly the same, and I am very excited to get the next Clan pack, too.

buttmonkey, on 12 September 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

This is my whole point. As I stated in my last post it would have made much more sense to take the MW franchise into space. I hear a lot of people saying they do not care about the new game, but I suspect they would if it was a continuation of the MW:O

#shouldaBeenAerospace

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Was nothing snide about it. What you choose to read into is your problem, I suppose. I acknowledged the part of your post I felt had validity. That got your pantie sin a bunch. Deal with it. You are dismissed.


funny part is, you still have no idea what you're talking about, but hey, it's entertaining to watch. BTW, sometimes you still have snow storms in April and May, up north. Guess That isn't spring, either. The 4 seasons revolve around the Equinox/Solstices in the western world. Have for centuries.

I'm afraid Bishop, these comments, to others posts, have just proven, this community isn't capable of having adult conversations, and these boards being nothing but negativity.

First one is very antagonistic, the second is you laughing at someone, and saying a person has no idea, neither is going to have any positive effect on these forums, and just because someone may or may not have tried to cause arguments, it doesn't make it right to reply in kind.

[Tarl Cabot]

The Ripper13, on 12 September 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

What about people's concerns for overall TTK's being too fast. Buffing everything as a solution to give people the satisfaction of bigger numbers does nothing but make the game more point and click, pin point, twitch game. People need to really understand when and where to apply percentages and ratios.

True, though when the percentages and ratios applied it should be with a solid foundation already in place with checks and balances so that the final component does not have to be constantly tweak to the point it is barely recognizable

The one of the questions that may never be answered, whose decision was it to basically torpedo 99% of BT heat scale? Remember, one of the first tweaks was to double both armor and internal structure points per ton, this was due to both pin point accuracy as well as how rapidly the trigger could be pulled.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 September 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Valore]

I'm sorry Bishop, you lost me when you claimed this is Niko trying to be civil.


Disclaimer: in his dealings with me personally, Niko has always been helpful and polite.

However, the whole reddit thing was an embarrassment from start to finish. The chain of events leading up to it were clear as day, and the result they got were well deserved.

First, the crazed paranoic moderation where saying the game sucked on third party sites got you banned. Seriously? Remember the backtracking Bioware had to pull when someone getting banned on their forums got banned from playing games they bought, singleplayer or otherwise? How is it even thinkable what was being done was acceptable?

Secondly, the reddit fiasco where they obviously thought they could continue with said crazed moderation policies, they made a mistake, a very embarassing one. They should just have stepped back, apologised, and tried to go on from there. Instead, they tried to paint it as a scheme by goons to get them banned. Okay then.

After the fiasco of founders coming out and saying how ridiculous the situation was, we get a passive-aggressive apology, which basically stated 'I'm sorry you all are so thinned skinned.'

Niko as a person has never been anything but helpful and polite to me personally in my dealings with him. But in this particular recent issue, in his role as community manager, he messed up. Just throwing it out there, I'm pretty sure he got fed up putting up with all the crap he got from the community in general. I don't blame him.

But its his job unfortunately to put up with some of this. Not the abuse. Not the harrassment.

But a lot of the stuff that gets binned, ignored, etc, is not abuse. Its not harrassment. Its frustration.

And if the reaction to frustration is simply to bin it, like they've been doing to close to 2 years now, what in the world makes you think PGI can change?

Its not entitlement to say 'Hey, we're the bloody customers here, you're doing certain things wrong, listen to us'. Nor is it reasonable for them to get upset when people have been trying to remain calm for 2 years, watching this circus careen from one hilarious disaster to the next, get frustrated and annoyed and voice it very vocally.

If we give constructive criticism, then surely it is time for them to focus on making positive steps and efforts, rather than wielding banhammers and being snarky and sarcastic to the players, and trying to dream up there's some kind of conspiracy out to get them.

[Tombstoner]

The Ripper13, on 12 September 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

What about people's concerns for overall TTK's being too fast. Buffing everything as a solution to give people the satisfaction of bigger numbers does nothing but make the game more point and click, pin point, twitch game.

People need to really understand when and where to apply percentages and ratios.

TTK's being to fast is a subective assesment derived from rate of armor depletion. So rate of fire, damage per shot, location of hit, number of shots. All of these have very strong efffects on TTK and player enjoyment. There is simply no easly solution other than a complet rework of all weapons such that they no longer resemble anything from TT. I delibratly left heat out because you should never be attacking your target head to head...other words never trade damage.

Buffing IS is inevatable. power creep in BT and MWO is inevatable. so shorter TTK's will become worse. cant touch numer of weapons or location of hits. so we get penalty heat. a system that can be gamed by jump sniping leting you cool down in relative safty(now nerfed) or sniping fall back to cool off.

So... the game need to completly depart lore. or it stays teh click point shoot twitch game its designed to be.

[Cimarb]

Valore, on 12 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

If we give constructive criticism, then surely it is time for them to focus on making positive steps and efforts, rather than wielding banhammers and being snarky and sarcastic to the players, and trying to dream up there's some kind of conspiracy out to get them.

While I agree with most of your post, there actually IS a conspiracy - just not a secret one - in this case. Roadbeer and several of his cronies have been very vocal about how they are going to do everything they can to bring PGI down via this new game, and have been spamming social channels to do so since it was announced.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Tombstoner, on 12 September 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

So... the game need to completly depart lore. or it stays teh click point shoot twitch game its designed to be.

Me personally, I am for any balance, number scaling, nerfing, or buffing that is required to result in a mech simulator feel. Whatever number system gives me the feel of controlling a heavy tonnage, smashy robot with some serious weaponry with a tone of realism I am all for.

Unfortunately when the devs talk #'s it seems a majority of the vocal people flip their lid about it before they really have a chance to understand the "why" behind the changes.

[Valore]

Cimarb, on 12 September 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

While I agree with most of your post, there actually IS a conspiracy - just not a secret one - in this case. Roadbeer and several of his cronies have been very vocal about how they are going to do everything they can to bring PGI down via this new game, and have been spamming social channels to do so since it was announced.

Have they actively lied about anything PGI has done though?

PGI has done some embarrassingly bad things. The best way to handle it would be to acknowledge which portions of what their detractors are saying is true and address how they'll make things right. That in itself would earn a lot of kudos from people like me who have unflattering views of PGI, but don't outright hate them.

Instead, when they go the opposite way by pretending those fringe loonies are completely wrong, they simply anger people like me, who know for a fact PGI have screwed up, repeatedly, and rather than addressing these screwups, prefer to try to sweep them under a rug, while claiming conspiracy.

[Maxx Blue]

While PGI has had a history of not hitting the bullseye on the first shot, I can honestly say that I have ended up pretty happy with most of the features they have added after they have had some time to debug and tune them. I also think they chose to avoid some of the most annoying parts of TT like through-armor crits, more frequent headshotting, and constantly falling over! Despite the repetition and same-ness of mechs after the first thirty or fourty you drive, I actually enjoy the core gameplay quite a bit. At this point, I really only have two or three big issues that cause me to get frustrated and take breaks from playing.

My biggest issue is that the game really doesn't give me any incentive to play anything but my best mechs. I get some enjoyment from working through the skill tree and mastering new mechs, but other than that I really have no reason to go back and play with the vast majority of my stable of mechs. I was really hoping that CW would give me a reason to use particular mechs or builds, but it looks like that won't happen in Phase 2, and I'm not sure if that is ever really going to be the point of CW. I have my own ideas about how that could work, but at this point the only way to get any motivation or reason to play most of my mechs would be to run with third-party groups doing stuff in private matches. Basically, if MWO doesn't give me a reason to, I will never run my Cicada 3C again.

Other than that, I mostly get frustrated with hit-reg and pinpoint damage. I know it is a HUGE technical challenge, but I get frustrated when I feel like I should be tearing an enemy apart and shots just don't land. Pinpoint damage is a choice they made for SOME weapons (not LRM's SRM's, MG's or LBX's) that I don't agree with for one major reason: It makes it too easy to focus fire on the torso sections of a mech. One of the things I loved about TT was the feeling of mechs being slowly blown apart, with most of them (barring headhots and random crits) missing arms and legs, and generally being a tattered mess before they finally died. I think MWO has lost some of that feeling because we are capable of such precise aim. There is nothing inherently 'wrong' with pinpoint damage, it is simply a design choice that creates some play-style effects that I don't find as fun. Oddly, if we didn't have pinpoint damage, I don't think I would notice the hit-reg issues as much, but that is beside the point.

Other than that, I actually really like this game. I Friggin' LOVE the models and art of the mechs, and even if they can feel a little monochromatic, I enjoy most of the maps as well. I find all of the different classes of weapons useful on at least some mechs...except flamers! I like how an assault mech feels so totally different from a light mech, even if I do pilot mostly mediums and heavies. Even the clans, despite starting out pretty OP, feel different and somewhat unique. However, I do have to admit that I find it totally hilarious that the clan omni-mechs actually feel like they are LESS customizable than the IS mechs. It's just wierd that the IS now have the advantage when it comes to build flexibility! I don't mind, but it is totally backwards from canon.

Anyway, I actually still like and enjoy MWO. I've just come to my own conclusions about what to expect and when to expect it from the dev team, and those opinions aren't going to change until I have seen a consistent change in the actions that occur. Getting away from IGP is nice and all, but my opinions about PGI aren't going to change unless their actions force me to.

Edited by Maxx Blue, 12 September 2014 - 08:39 AM.