529 replies to this topic

[DI3T3R]

Will the outcome of a season affect players/factions in the next season?

e.g. All players in the faction that fared the best get a bonus of 500,000 CB or free camo for that faction or extra loyalty points...

[Johnny Z]

Jakob Knight, on 11 September 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

A few points from my perspective on this....

1) The Devs need to come up with different terms for Faction (Clan / IS ) and Faction (Successor State, Individual Clan, Merc, Lone Wolf). Right now, the terms are being thrown around interchangeably, leading to confusion in if mech availability will be restricted to only those available between IS or Clan sides, or only those available to a particular State or individual Clan (the later of which would violate the original core ideal that no player would be restricted in what mech they could pilot in the game...the specific issue of, for instance, playing a Kuritan mech in a Lyran unit was pledged to never be an issue...it would all be a matter of prices and discounts, never prohibition from using a mech based on the nationality of the player).

Totally agree, even the guys making the game said that some of this needs to be clarified. "Clan Invasion" might be ok but I think the better term that could be used for CW or Faction wars would be "Succession Wars" because really the clans are part of the Succession Wars trying to reclaim the Star League as much as the successor states.

2) It was noted back in the days of the 'four pillars' that a pilot should choose their side and fight for it, that changing factions would not go unnoticed and have very negative consequences. Yet, now it seems this is being actively encouraged rather than made an action only to be taken with grave consideration. When was this forgotten or discarded as a primary concern of CW?

I Guess they are only allowing players to change faction after a map reset. How long between resets they didnt say.

3) The entire respawn mechanic is suspect, as the mortality of the pilots (you only participate in the battle as long as your mech is active, and once you are out, you are out) is a primary reason battles proceed as they do. Providing a means for pilots to suicide without fear of being removed from the battle, and the knowledge that a brand new mech is waiting if the pilot simply gives up on their damaged on, completely changes player behavior, and not for the better. Indeed, longer battletimes with the current 'one life is all you get, so be careful how you spend it' would only enhance the simulator aspect of what has become increasingly a sports game instead of the armored combat war game it was always supposed to be.

Respawn isnt a proper term since it suggests infinite respawns. This isnt a new idea and it involves a player taking 4 mechs in his or her dropship to important battles and then if they eject in time they can get to their drop ship and take any mechs remaining in it(The ejecting idea is a guess on my part. Until eject is added I guess everyone is considered ejected.)

4) CW has -always- been the focus and intended play mode of MWO, and the current 'free play' mode was supposed to be an alternative, 'does not matter/does not affect normal play' mode of play. Thus, all decisions and concepts must be based on CW being the game players in MWO will be involved in when they launch the program. Claiming that it is okay to put restrictions on CW play because players can still pilot whatever they want in a mode never intended to be the core of MWO is rather like claiming it is okay to place restrictions on the fuel a fire company can have in their vehicles because it doesn't affect them as long as they stay in the Station. In both cases, it's placing restrictions that were never supposed to be there in what is expected of the participants. And, yes, the decision to put out the Clan mechs without informing the buyers that these would be restricted from play (which had never been done in the game before), especially before CW was implemented and the players could have an idea that restrictions such as these would be part of it, was a serious mistake that now rolls into this issue.

When did anyone ever think that Clans would be using IS mechs? To be fair this would also go to why would anyone think that IS would be using Clan mechs? This isnt single player, there has to be some balance and common sense used to put it simply.

5) Jump jets were reduced in effectiveness completely on the basis that they were for terrain avoidance. Yet, it seems the chokepoints in CW are being designed so that only light mechs with a high jump rating may take advantage of the system as it was intended to operate. Why, I wonder, would a Highlander be intentionally prevented from being able to use its jump jets for assaulting the enemy position, the specific role of both the mech and its jump jets? This flies in the face of the argument that jump jets should not be tactical systems (used for high maneuverability, jump sniping, and increasing the difficulty of enemy fire to hit the jumping mech), but terrain avoidance (getting over obstacles and tactical objectives).

It is extremely likely there will be jump jet modules added at some time. The pilot modules explain alot of the nerfs that have happened and also some of role warfare.

I hope someone among the Devs are thinking of these points, and that they avoid the pitfalls I've described.

Great reply by the way or i wouldnt have wasted my time commenting on it I hope i got some of it right.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 September 2014 - 03:38 AM.

[tuffy963]

Postumus, on 11 September 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

What is the point in bidding for contracts when there are no expenses involved in fighting for a planet? Are you planning on bringing back repair and rearm for CW? Otherwise the only thing people are "bidding" on is the right to actually fight, and if there are limited matches, and fighting the matches carries its own rewards (mech discounts, greating Cbill/XP earings), expect to see Mercs bidding 0 C-bills.

This seems like a definite weak point as far as the whole Mercenary system is concerned. In lore, the idea is that the Merc corp who could get the job done with the lowest tonnage/lowest tech base would be the one who could win bids, because their expenses were so low. Having repair and re-arm for faction warfare would mean that matches would not be biased towards the teams with the most expensive, heaviest, most heavily modified, moduled, and consumabled mechs.

With repair and re-arm, you can expect to see a good amount of stock or nearly stock mechs, more balanced and lower tech builds, with much more limited and strategic use of consumables and modules. Without repair and re-arm, Faction Warfare will be the rich man's game, and you can expect that merc corps will only be allowing players with top of the line gear, a full rack of fully upgraded modules, and a full set of arty/airstrike and cool shots, auotmatically excluding new players.

Which of these scenarios will Faction warfare resemble, and why?

What he said...

There is nothing close to a functioning economy in MWO to date. Nor has PGI demonstrated any interest (or ability) in solving the problem of creating and managing a living economy in this game. There are several serious flaws/missing with going with a contract bidding system...

• C-bills have no value at the unit level
  
• C-bills have limited value at the player level
  
• Without Repair/Rearm, there is no "downside" to bringing fully upgraded IS mechs
  
• Related to the last point: Clan mechs do not need to be upgraded, potentially creating a economic disparity between IS and Clan players
  
• Canon-wise: Clan factions are not motivated by monetary contracts
  
• There was no real mention of building the contract bidding system

In short, I feel, PGI will need to flesh out the MWO economy point view further, or the majority of the CW phase 2 work could fail to engage players to use the CW system. The only thing worse than a non-existent community warfare function is one that you put a tremendous amount work into to implement and it is not used by players. Please tackle the economy problem!

[CyclonerM]

tuffy963, on 12 September 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

• Related to the last point: Clan mechs do not need to be upgraded, potentially creating a economic disparity between IS and Clan players
  

They cost a LOT more for that reason.

[Pyrock]

How many 12 man groups are there at peak times? That number times 2 is the total number of people participating in CW at any one time? With longer matches due to maps with gate mechanics...what are the rest of the players waiting in queue to defend going to do?

Does someone have numbers to indicate the people not in 12 man groups won't be sitting in a queue for 20 plus minutes waiting to drop?

[Cimarb]

CyclonerM, on 12 September 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

They cost a LOT more for that reason.

Clan mechs tend to cost "a lot" more due to the unbalanced nature of their stock equipment. Once you have upgraded an IS mech to a "usable" level for the game, your total cost is effectively the same as an equally-geared Clan mechs initial cost.

The issue with this is that Clan mechs are much more efficient uses of real money (since it is a fixed MC/tonnage), as you do not have to pay additional in-game money just to make it playable in the game. You can see this with some IS mechs that come with lots of upgrades in stock-mode, compared to the more baseline models (see the Raven for great examples).

[Hoax415]

Almond Brown, on 11 September 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

From reading, a Lone Wolf could change is Coat (so to speak) but that would only allow for them to be on the Defense Forces of whatever Faction they are running at the time. Attackers are ALL 12-man pre-mades and that requires Faction tags to create.

We don't know yet if there are any circumstances under which 100% unaligned faction 12-mans -Dagger Star(Clan), Merc(IS) and LNW(IS)- can create attack drops.

I am fairly certain that attack drops will not require 100% player unit purity that would be highly restrictive.
I am fairly certain that attack drops will not require 100% main faction purity either just only one aligned faction in the 12-man. So you could drop with 5 CJF pilots and 7 Dagger Star pilots. Or 8 Davion pilots, 2 Mercs and 2 LNW.

But we do not know for sure yet. Those are just logical guesses.

Big Grimm, on 11 September 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

my questions are
1) I am in Australia, will there be a time zone allocated for zones like us?

They have confirmed intention of doing an Oceania primetime.

I've come to suspect that CW will have realtime attack windows that will be between 1-2 hours most likely. Any longer and its rough on defenders to stay online for the entire attack. 90min-2hrs really seems like the sweet spot.

So Oceania will get at least one of those windows. But it could be only one while NA gets say 3 and EU gets say 3 because for EU and NA there is overlap.

The real issue is that there is a 2 hour difference between west coast and east coast australia and still neither of your primetimes (6pm-midnight) intersect with the rest of the playerbase.

So I suspect Aussies will get the shaft a little bit in terms of available CW hours but its also a much smaller player population.

Step1. Get them to put a server in California to get better pings for Aussies and West Coast US players.
Step2. More Aus players
Step3. More Aus CW times.

Edited by Hoax415, 12 September 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Zygwen]

One question would be how do Hero mechs fit in. Most technically don't fit into any faction affiliation so does that mean they can't be played in CW? Well what's the point in having them then?

Roleplaying is nice and all but not everyone wants to roleplay. Some people might just want to get a good match going and still participate in CW. Maybe we could open up the defence pool into 3 groups.

Contract, Faction and Open. This would allow for quicker matches because anyone could in theory defend.

We could set the c-bill, exp and faction rewards based on how closely the player adhers to the roleplay elements.

For Example:
50% bonus maximum.
Broken down as follows.
10% contract defender bonus.
20% faction bonus
20% faction mech bonus.

Thus if the contract defender is defending with faction mechs they get the full 50% bonus
Faction defenders with faction mechs get 40%
Faction defenders with non faction mechs get 20%
Non-Faction defenders with faction mechs get 20%
Non-Faction defenders with non-faction mechs get 0%

You could even allow IS mechs in a clan faction or clan mechs in an IS faction at a 25% or 50% penalty. For clans this would represent the stigma associated with running a second line mech and for IS the penalty would be for running a high maintenance mech.

A system like this would allow defending players to choose any mech from their roster.

[Namicus]

Please explain how the Clan Loyalist faction will work with respect to using IS and/or clan mechs.

Thanks

[Archon]

Question 1: Is "bounty hunting" still going to be a part of community warfare? If so will clans also be able to do this?

Question 2: Can we please get an option to save variants of mechs?

[Bandaron]

(Not reading 24 pages of comments during my lunch hour, so apologies if this has already been covered)

Quote

[color=#00FFFF]During peak player count times throughout the day, planetary control matches will be kicked off within the Faction tab. Players will see planets on the Inner Sphere map which are currently contested and be able to choose to be part of the fight.[/color]

If I'm understanding this right, it means that there is a dev-determined time of day in which planets can be contested, which has obvious drawbacks for players who don't get on during peak hours due to time zones or work, and also means that for [20] or so hours of the day, there's absolutely nothing going on as far as CW.

Have you considered instead giving control of the vulnerability timers to the occupying units? You could say, 'you must select a continuous [4]-hour period of the day during which enemies can attack your worlds' (or even set for each world individually)? If a unit mostly plays EU hours, they can set that as their window of vulnerability. Conversely, a unit can try to set their vulnerability hours during oceania hours to try to ensure nobody can raise the forces to attack them ... but then they're at the mercy of anyone who actually manages to do so.

Also, a question someone in my unit raised: "What happens if you're in a match when the "2-minute warning" goes out to your unit because someone's attacking your planet? We could have 15 guys online, but if we all start matches and then someone attacks our world, do we lose it by default because we didn't get the notification? Or will we get the notification and just have to drop that match to form up? Hope you weren't using your "good" mech."

[Cimarb]

Bandaron, on 12 September 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

If I'm understanding this right, it means that there is a dev-determined time of day in which planets can be contested, which has obvious drawbacks for players who don't get on during peak hours due to time zones or work, and also means that for [20] or so hours of the day, there's absolutely nothing going on as far as CW.

Have you considered instead giving control of the vulnerability timers to the occupying units? You could say, 'you must select a continuous [4]-hour period of the day during which enemies can attack your worlds' (or even set for each world individually)? If a unit mostly plays EU hours, they can set that as their window of vulnerability. Conversely, a unit can try to set their vulnerability hours during oceania hours to try to ensure nobody can raise the forces to attack them ... but then they're at the mercy of anyone who actually manages to do so.

Also, a question someone in my unit raised: "What happens if you're in a match when the "2-minute warning" goes out to your unit because someone's attacking your planet? We could have 15 guys online, but if we all start matches and then someone attacks our world, do we lose it by default because we didn't get the notification? Or will we get the notification and just have to drop that match to form up? Hope you weren't using your "good" mech."

Great idea, actually, about choosing the time block.

As far as you being in a drop, worst case scenario is you cannot mobilize (because you were off fighting somewhere else), and others from your faction fill in after the 2-minute timer to fight for you. It is a pretty good way to handle it, actually, even though it is not perfect.

[MadLibrarian]

Will you be fixing the myriad existing problems with the game before releasing CW?
E.g. Desyncs, disconnects, hit detection, weapon balance, GUI functionality issues, etc, etc.

Do you intend to somehow compensate for the extremely high buy-in cost of participating in CW?
I.e. One mech in each class is a whole bunch of C-Bills without even mastering them.

Will you ever be implementing an in game tournament/league system, Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, Solaris (aka deathmatch)?
(That's the type of stuff that really adds replay value. Some might say that the game would be about as much fun if it were just solaris.)

[Cimarb]

MadLibrarian, on 12 September 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Will you be fixing the myriad existing problems with the game before releasing CW?
E.g. Desyncs, disconnects, hit detection, weapon balance, GUI functionality issues, etc, etc.

Do you intend to somehow compensate for the extremely high buy-in cost of participating in CW?
I.e. One mech in each class is a whole bunch of C-Bills without even mastering them.

Will you ever be implementing an in game tournament/league system, Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, Solaris (aka deathmatch)?
(That's the type of stuff that really adds replay value. Some might say that the game would be about as much fun if it were just solaris.)

They are working on the desyncs and disconnects and it is supposed to be "better" the next patch. Hit detection can always be improved, weapon balance and GUI functionality are completely subjective, and etc etc etc.

Two words: trial mechs.

By the looks of it, CW is going to basically be an in game tournament/league system, at least until logistics are in place.

[MadLibrarian]

Cimarb, on 12 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

They are working on the desyncs and disconnects and it is supposed to be "better" the next patch.

Of course they are 'working', but are they actually putting resources into solving such a critical issue? It compromises the integrity of half the matches. It's not always me, but there's usually someone gone half the match at least. Being a man or two down is a big disadvantage. Basically the only thing this game has is random meaningless matches. Don't you think they should at least work as expected. At least punt someone from the other team too..

Cimarb, on 12 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Hit detection can always be improved, weapon balance and GUI functionality are completely subjective, and etc etc etc.

There is nothing subjective about stupid gui behavior. Here's an example, the filter selection resets after you click mech details. Want to go right back so you can buy that mech? Well then search for it again... It's just.... stupid. I doubt someone wanted it to be that way, it's just survived this long into the 'release' Still it's better than the store. It is the spot where the complex detailed tool tips are needed the most because the right pane is graphics, but nah... Just look at the typos in marketing materials instead. What mech was that again? Screw it i'll go to the mechlab... Still feel like buying?

It's just these are the things that get cleared up before you leave beta.... Maybe no one ever noticed?

Cimarb, on 12 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Two words: trial mechs.

Do the trial mechs at present fit all the criterion for CW faction matches? Are these just the variants shared by multiple houses?

Cimarb, on 12 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

By the looks of it, CW is going to basically be an in game tournament/league system, at least until logistics are in place.

Was it just me or did it also sound like it was One Map for the new game mode?

[Cimarb]

MadLibrarian, on 12 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Of course they are 'working', but are they actually putting resources into solving such a critical issue? It compromises the integrity of half the matches. It's not always me, but there's usually someone gone half the match at least. Being a man or two down is a big disadvantage. Basically the only thing this game has is random meaningless matches. Don't you think they should at least work as expected. At least punt someone from the other team too..

There is nothing subjective about stupid gui behavior. Here's an example, the filter selection resets after you click mech details. Want to go right back so you can buy that mech? Well then search for it again... It's just.... stupid. I doubt someone wanted it to be that way, it's just survived this long into the 'release' Still it's better than the store. It is the spot where the complex detailed tool tips are needed the most because the right pane is graphics, but nah... Just look at the typos in marketing materials instead. What mech was that again? Screw it i'll go to the mechlab... Still feel like buying?

It's just these are the things that get cleared up before you leave beta.... Maybe no one ever noticed?

Do the trial mechs at present fit all the criterion for CW faction matches? Are these just the variants shared by multiple houses?

Was it just me or did it also sound like it was One Map for the new game mode?

Yes, they are actively putting lots of resources into the desync issue.

I agree with you about the mouseover tooltips, and they are fixing that, but I have never used the filter selections, so the reset issue you have does not matter to me - hence it is subjective to the user.

Yes, trial mechs will fit all the criterion, since the criterion is IS or Clan. All mercs, House and lone wolf players are restricted to IS mechs, and all Clan and Dagger Star players are restricted to Clan mechs. I wish they would restrict it more than that, such as by the lists they have used for the House-themed events the last few weeks like you are talking about, but as of two days ago it is just IS/Clan.

There is one attack/defend map in the works, by the sound of it, but we are not sure yet whether ALL matches will be on that map for CW, or if it will only be the first initial match and then the next three days are on the existing maps.

[Hoax415]

Namicus, on 12 September 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Please explain how the Clan Loyalist faction will work with respect to using IS and/or clan mechs.

Its been plainly stated several times now. We really need to get a FAQ up or something.

Clan Daggerstar aka Clan Loyalist can ONLY use clan mechs. They can use all clan mechs.

Zygwen, on 12 September 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

One question would be how do Hero mechs fit in. Most technically don't fit into any faction affiliation so does that mean they can't be played in CW? Well what's the point in having them then?

The only planned limitation is IS mechs as a whole and Clan mechs as a whole. This means all factions that can use IS mechs can use every single IS mech. This includes hero mechs and every other special variant of every single IS chassis.

All factions that use clan mechs cannot use any IS chassis, including hero versions or any other special variant.

Bandaron, on 12 September 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

If I'm understanding this right, it means that there is a dev-determined time of day in which planets can be contested, which has obvious drawbacks for players who don't get on during peak hours due to time zones or work, and also means that for [20] or so hours of the day, there's absolutely nothing going on as far as CW.

Have you considered instead giving control of the vulnerability timers to the occupying units? You could say, 'you must select a continuous [4]-hour period of the day during which enemies can attack your worlds' (or even set for each world individually)? If a unit mostly plays EU hours, they can set that as their window of vulnerability.

There is not one single window. There will be AT MINIMUM 3 windows that we know for sure: NA, EU and Oceania. But we have no idea how long a window lasts and if there will be many more than that or just the three.

Quote

Also, a question someone in my unit raised: "What happens if you're in a match when the "2-minute warning" goes out to your unit because someone's attacking your planet? We could have 15 guys online, but if we all start matches and then someone attacks our world, do we lose it by default because we didn't get the notification? Or will we get the notification and just have to drop that match to form up? Hope you weren't using your "good" mech."

If you don't "form up" then the attack is turned over to "faction defenders" after 2 minutes. That means a notice goes out to everyone eligible to defend the planet and the first 12 who click the defend button are sent to defend against the attack.

Same thing happens if your unit can only put together a partial force for defense, the final spots will be turned over to "faction defenders".

MadLibrarian, on 12 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Do the trial mechs at present fit all the criterion for CW faction matches? Are these just the variants shared by multiple houses?

Official word is there are zero restrictions of that kind. All IS aligned factions get to use all IS aligned mechs. All lore is being ignored in terms of which factions have access to which gear.

Edited by Hoax415, 13 September 2014 - 12:39 AM.

[L Y N X]

PGI, Which community warfare phase will introduce planetary occupation by Mercenary units?

Edited by 7ynx, 13 September 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[Fractis Zero]

"ENGAGING IN PLANETARY CONQUEST
During peak player count times throughout the day, planetary control matches will be kicked off within the Faction tab. Players will see planets on the Inner Sphere map which are currently contested and be able to choose to be part of the fight."

So those of us that do not play at peak times will never be involved? Or will there be periphery worlds that can be attacked/defended at slower times?

[Devillin]

White Bear 84, on 10 September 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

I am developing a concept on this that integrates division/faction coffers for CW drops as well as 'challenges' for pugs in order to counter the 'if you keep losing this mechanism sucks' issue.

Really the only reason it failed was there was so much QQ from players that constantly lost so could not afford mechs.. ..I personally think that CW and other develpoment ideas offer opportunities to re-imagine the system to make it more balanced and applicable to the game without ruining gameplay or experience. It could also be tied in with mech salvage...

The easy solution to this is to make all starting players part of a House Unit. They don't have to worry about paying for R&R, but they get the restricted pay that we currently get. To get out of the House Unit and go independent, the player would have to buy out their contract with the House Unit and buy passage to Outreach, something like 1 million C-Bills for themselves and 500K for each mech in their drop bay. If they decide to go Lone Wolf, or join a Mercenary Unit, then they get the increased pay, but they have to pay for their R&R. Since the Clans don't do Lone Wolves or Mercenaries, they would only get the restricted pay and free R&R.

So a newbie player would benefit from the free R&R while in the House Unit, and also get the benefit of something like 20% to 30% off mechs specific to that House. Once they have enough experience and cash to go Independent, they would get 10% to 15% off mechs belonging to Houses that they have a certain degree of Loyalty points with, plus a lot more cash per match (but they have to pay for their own repairs).

Edited by Devillin, 13 September 2014 - 07:00 PM.