353 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Tezcatli, on 17 September 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Except when you duck behind cover against people using ACs and other weapons. It does not magically arc around the cover and hit you.

No, instead it hits you before you can reach cover or the moment you step out of it.
Gauss Speed =2k
LRM Speed = 160

A Gauss rifle can hit you twice before the first LRM hits you.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I just cant say a weapon system that requires an upgrade (artemis), at least one module slot (advanced radar decay), a energy weapon slot (TAG or NARC), requires that you keep lock from when fired to when hit, requires boating and teamwork just to do average damage and can be completely negated by a single 1.5 ton item is OP

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 17 September 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[Ovion]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 September 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

I just cant say a weapon system that requires an upgrade (artemis), at least one module slot (advanced radar decay), a energy weapon slot (TAG or NARC), requires that you keep lock from when fired to when hit, requires boating and teamwork just to do average damage and can be completely negated by a single 1.5 ton item is OP

This sort of sums it up really doesn't it.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ovion, on 17 September 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

This sort of sums it up really doesn't it.

Yeah it really does. Im a TT lrm player, played lrms in all the games till now and lrms have been SO NERFED toll now that they DONT need more imo. TACTICS make them powerful. Nerf that.

[Vaderman]

Ovion, on 17 September 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

sigh

No, it's not a case of 'just hit R and mash fire'.

You have to get a target.
This requires LoS or a team mate spotting.

Then you have to get a lock.
That's the important part.
You have to hold the reticule over the target for 1-5 seconds to acquire a lock.
You then have to retain that lock be keeping the reticule over the target for the additional 2-8 seconds it takes to reach the target.
If there's ECM, Dep module, or vertical cover, then you can forget about those locks.

Then even when you have them, you face off against the incoming missile warning and area AMS, or ECM moving in.

So yes, if you stand in the open like a mook, you deserve to get sandblasted.

But when every other weapon requires you to only center the reticule and fire, it baffles me how LRMs are 'easy mode'.

I've never been in a match where I didn't have multiple choices of targets to lock on to when using LRMs. The hardest thing is deciding which of the many targets I want to hit.

Getting locks is usually pretty easy when boating since you're doing it from the safety of cover, in most cases.

That is the difference between direct and indirect fire, using direct fire weapons almost always subjects you to counter-fire and this is not true with indirect fire.

Now it does require some knowledge of the map and arc mechanics to actually hit the target, but that's a pretty flat learning curve.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Vaderman, on 17 September 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I've never been in a match where I didn't have multiple choices of targets to lock on to when using LRMs. The hardest thing is deciding which of the many targets I want to hit.

the last match I was it it was like that except the targets were lost in flight and I was hitting terrain more than the mechs.

1800 missiles on my boat, I used them all got 187 damage because they never HIT THE TARGET.

Between that stupid bug where you have to wait two seconds to fire or the missiles fire and land halfway betwen you and the target or the target gets lost before the missiles get there.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...182b8cce70ff68d

my build by the way... Ive done upwards of 900 damage with the right ppl

http://i.imgur.com/1fo8D45.jpg

like that but those games are only with the right ppl

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 17 September 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Vaderman]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 September 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

the last match I was it it was like that except the targets were lost in flight and I was hitting terrain more than the mechs.

1800 missiles on my boat, I used them all got 187 damage because they never HIT THE TARGET.

Between that stupid bug where you have to wait two seconds to fire or the missiles fire and land halfway betwen you and the target or the target gets lost before the missiles get there.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...182b8cce70ff68d

my build by the way... Ive done upwards of 900 damage with the right ppl

I'm not saying missiles aren't less accurate, or can't be easily countered with ECM, or don't in general have some quirks.

In the right situation though they go from useless to horribly overpowered, mainly due to indirect fire gangbangs.

This is the problem with LRMs, both sides have a valid argument regarding them. There is little middle ground to LRM effectiveness unfortunately.

The problem is that you can easily circumvent them entirely in an organized unit, but in a non-organized pug match they are very often devastating.

Yes yes I know dirty PUGs deserve it right? But pretty much everyone starts there (I still 100% PUG), and that environment is what gives people their first impression of the game.

[Wolfways]

McHarg, on 17 September 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

I've seen some of the best players in the game have a hard time against lrms due to narc, etc. Are you gonna say that they're bad players?

Everyone has off days, or matches where things don't go quite according to plan.
Having said that NARC does not change LRM flight path and shouldn't make a difference to avoiding LRM's if you are hugging terrain.
Maybe the "best players" just aren't used to dealing with LRM's as they aren't used much in higher tier matches.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

If they get themselves caught out in the open and die to lrms then yes for that maneuver, they WERE bad.

[DocBach]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 September 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

If they get themselves caught out in the open and die to lrms then yes for that maneuver, they WERE bad.

Missile bukakki or Gauss/PPC/large laser spam, dead is dead if you walk through a kill zone.

Edited by DocBach, 17 September 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Vaderman, on 17 September 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I've never been in a match where I didn't have multiple choices of targets to lock on to when using LRMs. The hardest thing is deciding which of the many targets I want to hit.

It depends on the game. If you have an abundance of targets, usually that means you have a good team or the opponent is doing something wrong. I've had Solo drops where the team don't lock up, the opposition had better usage of ECM, etc. So it's a bit of a luck thing when in the Solo queue.

Vaderman, on 17 September 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Getting locks is usually pretty easy when boating since you're doing it from the safety of cover, in most cases.

Correction. Getting and holding locks is not easy because somebody on the team have to do it. The LRM shooter is responsible for delivering the heavy mail, but it's a team effort. A LRM Specialist can never forget that and he bloody well make sure he carries his side of the bargain well enough -- that's his job.

Vaderman, on 17 September 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

That is the difference between direct and indirect fire, using direct fire weapons almost always subjects you to counter-fire and this is not true with indirect fire.

Now it does require some knowledge of the map and arc mechanics to actually hit the target, but that's a pretty flat learning curve.

I'll like to point out that there is one of the points of indirect fire. To be able to attack from cover is a plus; on the flip side, the LRM support must be able to deliver consistent and available fire support or he's not pulling his weight on the team.

Case in point, Crimson game last night. ECM not really a factor. I was in my Orion, ALRM45. The opposite side had a Awesome with LRM50 or LRM60, at least, plus TAG (I don't). Both sides were fighting on the Peninsula, and were locking targets up. Both the Awesome and myself are positioned initially in decent positions to support the friendly forces.

I outshot the Awesome in pure damage by five times. In a lighter chassis and lower tube count.

The reason is that I was close enough to the front lines to support my team, both in support of brawls and in interdiction of enemy reinforcements. I got locks from both my teams and direct LOS. He stayed at the back and lobbed ineffectively -- in particular, he really did a poor job of counterbattery work (i.e., suppressing me), even when I poked my head out from cover to get locks. He'd lob off a salvo at >600m, I'll step back and break lock, the missiles would miss (or will hit but I take it on the armour), I step back up and lob some rounds at him to keep him suppressed.

And all the while I was also lobbing rounds out to support my team, who was doing a good job of finding and holding locks.. while he wasn't. At the end of the match, I held up my end of the bargain with my solo queue team, while he didn't.

At the end of day, a LRM boat is a team asset. If people are so focused on what the individual Mech is about, they would totally miss the point about LRM work being team work. Frankly, as long as these people are so hung up about LRMs being easy for an individual pilot to use, they are always going to be vulnerable to death by LRMs, because they'd never account for the team effort that effective LRM work is about.

Edited by Lynx7725, 17 September 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[DocBach]

^^^ Excellent post

[Vaderman]

Lynx7725, on 17 September 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

It depends on the game. If you have an abundance of targets, usually that means you have a good team or the opponent is doing something wrong. I've had Solo drops where the team don't lock up, the opposition had better usage of ECM, etc. So it's a bit of a luck thing when in the Solo queue.



Correction. Getting and holding locks is not easy because somebody on the team have to do it. The LRM shooter is responsible for delivering the heavy mail, but it's a team effort. A LRM Specialist can never forget that and he bloody well make sure he carries his side of the bargain well enough -- that's his job.



I'll like to point out that there is one of the points of indirect fire. To be able to attack from cover is a plus; on the flip side, the LRM support must be able to deliver consistent and available fire support or he's not pulling his weight on the team.

Case in point, Crimson game last night. ECM not really a factor. I was in my Orion, ALRM45. The opposite side had a Awesome with LRM50 or LRM60, at least, plus TAG (I don't). Both sides were fighting on the Peninsula, and were locking targets up. Both the Awesome and myself are positioned initially in decent positions to support the friendly forces.

I outshot the Awesome in pure damage by five times. In a lighter chassis and lower tube count.

The reason is that I was close enough to the front lines to support my team, both in support of brawls and in interdiction of enemy reinforcements. I got locks from both my teams and direct LOS. He stayed at the back and lobbed ineffectively -- in particular, he really did a poor job of counterbattery work (i.e., suppressing me), even when I poked my head out from cover to get locks. He'd lob off a salvo at >600m, I'll step back and break lock, the missiles would miss (or will hit but I take it on the armour), I step back up and lob some rounds at him to keep him suppressed.

And all the while I was also lobbing rounds out to support my team, who was doing a good job of finding and holding locks.. while he wasn't. At the end of the match, I held up my end of the bargain with my solo queue team, while he didn't.

At the end of day, a LRM boat is a team asset. If people are so focused on what the individual Mech is about, they would totally miss the point about LRM work being team work. Frankly, as long as these people are so hung up about LRMs being easy for an individual pilot to use, they are always going to be vulnerable to death by LRMs, because they'd never account for the team effort that effective LRM work is about.

Pretty much everything you said is just as true for direct fire weapons.

Positioning and suppression fire (which LRMs are really good at) is key no matter what weapon you use.

500-600m is the sweet spot for LRM usage and it sounds like you were basically fighting a noob.

New players tend to gravitate to LRMs because they can shoot at people without getting shot at in return, they just don't usually realize how ineffective they really are against experienced players.

[Johnny Reb]

As frames rates have tanked for some, lrms are the only option.

[Gerhardt Jorgensson]

Johnny Reb, on 17 September 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

As frames rates have tanked for some, lrms are the only option.

My frame rates are fantastic, until LRM's start blowing up around me. Even if they are not impacting on me, being near LRM explosions causes my FPS to drop from 120+ to the teens.

Very annoying.

[El Bandito]

Lynx7725, on 17 September 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

At the end of day, a LRM boat is a team asset. If people are so focused on what the individual Mech is about, they would totally miss the point about LRM work being team work. Frankly, as long as these people are so hung up about LRMs being easy for an individual pilot to use, they are always going to be vulnerable to death by LRMs, because they'd never account for the team effort that effective LRM work is about.

So much this.

[duragan]

I could not agree more i HATE lrms in there current form it is literally the reason i hate playing this game.

[Lynx7725]

Vaderman, on 17 September 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

New players tend to gravitate to LRMs because they can shoot at people without getting shot at in return, they just don't usually realize how ineffective they really are against experienced players.

Not getting shot in return is a basic rule in survival. Even experienced players, direct fire or not, should be looking for ways to do this, as this extends their time in games and allow them to make a bigger impact. The onus is on the receiving end (the target) to look to their survival, not on the delivering end (shooter) to help their targets survive longer. Because if it is, the game would end up being very stupid.

It's more difficult to defend against LRM indirect fire not because of the arc or anything, it's more because the teamwork involved; you can use multiple spotters, so the target can be locked up by multiple sources. The spotter(s) need not give himself away with direct fire, the best spotter I've ever seen (!) was an ECM Cicada hiding quietly behind a rock on Caustic (against me, btw), so the target can be blissfully unaware of being targeted.

All these require that the various players understand their role in a team and how effectively to play it. Someone getting reamed by LRMs, is effectively getting hit by the teamwork stick. Even if it's just one boat and one spotter. In this case, it's at least 5 players involved. That's teamwork, even if it's "easy-mode" teamwork. If the same target had been hit by 5 direct fire mechs, some people on the forum will call that skill... and it is, but there can be absolutely no teamwork involved in that one.

End of day, teamwork is a big stick that can beat people to death very quickly. LRM is the second lowest form of teamwork you can find in a game. And people want to nerf it? That is one big reason why I look at a lot of LRM complainers askew -- I get a distinct scent of Rambo-ism floating around there.

[Johnny Reb]

Gerhardt Jorgensson, on 17 September 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

My frame rates are fantastic, until LRM's start blowing up around me. Even if they are not impacting on me, being near LRM explosions causes my FPS to drop from 120+ to the teens.

Very annoying.

I would trade you, my pc used to handle this game at 40 fps now lucky when I get 20. So I run lrms now!

edit: pretty good at it but I guess since its easy mode anyone can. Average 400 damage in a medium, care less lrm or not that's at credit to the team!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 17 September 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[El Bandito]

Gerhardt Jorgensson, on 17 September 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

My frame rates are fantastic, until LRM's start blowing up around me. Even if they are not impacting on me, being near LRM explosions causes my FPS to drop from 120+ to the teens.

Very annoying.

Turn off motion blur and lower effects. Helps a lot.