353 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

[Mercules]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

Artemis, TAG and Narc were all meant to increase the chances of hitting anything while still spreading the damage evenly across the mech, not making LRMs a CT sniper weapon.

Not according to the devs of MWO. Those systems narrow the spread of the LRM flight. As you have demonstrated.

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

As for "less than half" I suggest you go and find out more about stock loadouts.

Sorry, your crappy blurry recording made it look like it was a 1D. After careful review I see that it is in fact a 1B so it has 16/24 instead of 12/28. I stand corrected, it only has 2/3rds the armor you will typically find on a Commando in game.

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

For starters its 6 points of armor plus 4 points of internal structure, but it hardly matters as anything but CT is barely scratched. Also I find it funny that you claim that Artemis is the reason my LRMs were so powerful and hit CT mostly in the test while still claiming that lots of people don't use it. Something doesn't add up.

Because you are not considering how the majority of LRMs are used. Artemis only works if you are in direct LoS of the target mech. It adds a ton and a crit slot to each launcher. If someone is using 4 LRM 15s that adds 4tons and 4 crit slots. Not all builds can afford that increase if they also don't intend the mech to be in LoS combat the majority of the time. If you are going to be getting your own TAGs then yes Artemis "might" be worth it, but remember, you are going to lob something going 160 while people are shooting you with things that go 1k+. While you are waiting for your LRMs to hit you will have to stare at your target and can't torso twist... while in direct LoS of them....

...are you not seeing how Artemis is not worth it to many LRM users?

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

LOL. So Streaks aren't affected by ECM? And multiple ECM does cancel BAP you know. Friedny BAP cancells ECM for friendly LRMs too. You can dodge Streaks just like you can dodge LRMs, plus AMS works against them as well. Quit BS'ing people, Streaks are no different from LRMs. When Streaks were hitting CT only back in beta it was considered a bug, now LRMs do same and its fine? Get real.

You seem to be misinformed. ECM does cancel Streaks, but BAP at close range(where you would be firing Streaks) shuts down BAP. BAP does not help an LRM boat unless his teammate also has it which is a crapshoot in PuGging. Streaks move at 200 instead of 160 and have so much less distance to travel that Bitching Betty often warns you AFTER you have been hit that you have missiles inbound. AMS does shoot down streaks but not as well as it shoots down LRMs especially if the shot is close to point blank which LRMs can't do... okay Clan can but then they are doing like .01 damage per missile and that is wasting a lot of ammo and heat for almost no damage.

Streaks also "Don't Miss". Seriously. The only way to miss with them is to have them clip terrain or to be moving away from them and at the edge of their range when they are launched so they fly more than their range. LRMs rarely hit... against decent players.


Streaks hitting CT in Beta was never a "Bug". It was something they programmed them to do, then realized that it wasn't the behaviour they wanted out of them and needed to figure out a better way to handle them.


======================================
Look, the whole problem here is that you are grossly naive about how LRMs are used, when they are, and how easy they are to avoid and spread damage. I am constantly avoiding large groups of LRMs in game and when I know I can't I will Torso Twist and take the damage on part that doesn't have damage or I don't care about. They don't "go to CT". Instead the fly towards the center mass of the mech and the first part they hit, they hit. If that is an arm, then that missile hits arm. Torso twisting works to negate CT damage. Artemis and TAG narrow the spread, in some cases they will make it more likely for all that damage to hit an Arm instead of CT if you are hitting the mech from the side.

[nehebkau]

Never fails to boggle my mind how people can so completely miss the point of a post....

"musta been UAV"
"Musta been a NARC"
"Someone was running a LRM80 boat"
"Look i drew a graph to prove my point using no real numbers or proof"

You look at the weapons fire / type of weapons and it is clear he was group-aimed and killed. The worst mechanic in the game is the sharing of lockable targets amongst players. Someone targeted him then everyone else with LRMs used the shared-targeting to focus-fire on him and make him go splat -- WITH NO DANGER to themselves for their LRM spam.

This crap is why we need MORE ECM.

Edited by nehebkau, 18 September 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[DocBach]

nehebkau, on 18 September 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Never fails to boggle my mind how people can so completely miss the point of a post....

"musta been UAV"
"Musta been a NARC"
"Someone was running a LRM80 boat"
"Look i drew a graph to prove my point using no real numbers or proof"

You look at the weapons fire / type of weapons and it is clear he was group-aimed and killed. The worst mechanic in the game is the sharing of lockable targets amongst players. Someone targeted him then everyone else with LRMs used the shared-targeting to focus-fire on him and make him go splat -- WITH NO DANGER to themselves for their LRM spam.

This crap is why we need MORE ECM.

If LRM's didn't do indirect fire, and everyone had to be out in the open, would the the result be any different than if the player was hit by four 'Mechs with direct fire weapons?

Would the result have been different in the current system if he wasn't hit by any one of the several buffs that make LRM's more effective?

[nehebkau]

DocBach, on 18 September 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

If LRM's didn't do indirect fire, and everyone had to be out in the open, would the the result be any different than if the player was hit by four 'Mechs with direct fire weapons?

Would the result have been different in the current system if he wasn't hit by any one of the several buffs that make LRM's more effective?

Again,
Missing the point. I and my 10 friends get to hide behind a hill, the first target that our spotter sees everyone gets to lock on and fire the LRM spam and the majority of us do so with no peril. Only one in danger is peep-show guy who is spotting. That first, unlucky guy gets ********* by LRM fire.

THAT IS NOT GOOD GAME DESIGN.

With the mechs out in the open, at least they are exposed to direct fire, at least the player being attacked could see that there are 11 LRM boats just in front of him getting ready to fire.

Tell ya what, lets implement arty-strikes that don't require LOS. Lets just let you lock on a target and drop an arty on it just like LRMs do right on that target. Sound fair?


P.S.
Mods, I miss how the profanity filter would put in other funny words, rather than ******. Guess I am going to have to think of my own creative euphemisms if you aren't going to do it for me.

Edited by nehebkau, 18 September 2014 - 06:29 AM.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Oh dear, the whine...it is magnificent.

I don't even use lrm's all that often myself, but this thread makes me wish for the lrmageddon. Yes it will be hard on me too, but the whiners....the whiners must be purified by a shitstorm of lrms.

Please mech gods, kill the whiners.

Edited by The Ripper13, 18 September 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[Spr1ggan]

El Bandito, on 18 September 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

Except that's not how it goes in practice. In practice, one ST usually pops before the other to my LRMs, because other people are also shooting at that mech and exposing that side. Jagers and Fastbacks die pretty damn fast while Crows and Novas die only after they go below 20%.



Hah, I doubt you can have better WLR with it. Especially considering the fact that you QQ about LRMs.

I wasn't referring to it's W/L. And for your information a lot of the comp community complain about lrms. And they are far better players than you. Also stop with the "QQ" as you obviously have no idea what it actually means or where it came from.

[DocBach]

nehebkau, on 18 September 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Only one in danger is peep-show guy who is spotting.

And since peep show guy is the only person spotting, the minute he has to evade enemy fire all 10 of those 'Mechs lose their locks and their missiles drop harmlessly to the ground.

[El Bandito]

McHarg, on 18 September 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

I wasn't referring to it's W/L.

I guess you don't like to win then. Suit yourself.

[Spr1ggan]

El Bandito, on 18 September 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

I guess you don't like to win then. Suit yourself.

On the contrary...

Edited by McHarg, 18 September 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[nehebkau]

DocBach, on 18 September 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

And since peep show guy is the only person spotting, the minute he has to evade enemy fire all 10 of those 'Mechs lose their locks and their missiles drop harmlessly to the ground continue on their flightpath.

Just a small edit for clarity which is important if the target is a slow assault of quick light.

[DocBach]

nehebkau, on 18 September 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Just a small edit for clarity which is important if the target is a slow assault of quick light.

You've got a point, if the player who is being shot at doesn't do anything to try to evade the LRM's that are now guided to the last point they had a lock, they might eat some of them.

[Ghogiel]

McHarg, on 18 September 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

On the contrary...

FAKE

[Spr1ggan]

Ghogiel, on 18 September 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

FAKE

xD

I've upped my game with the Misery since i was levelling it with Cyborx and yourself haha.

[Vaderman]

nehebkau, on 18 September 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Again,
Missing the point. I and my 10 friends get to hide behind a hill, the first target that our spotter sees everyone gets to lock on and fire the LRM spam and the majority of us do so with no peril. Only one in danger is peep-show guy who is spotting. That first, unlucky guy gets ********* by LRM fire.

THAT IS NOT GOOD GAME DESIGN.

With the mechs out in the open, at least they are exposed to direct fire, at least the player being attacked could see that there are 11 LRM boats just in front of him getting ready to fire.

Tell ya what, lets implement arty-strikes that don't require LOS. Lets just let you lock on a target and drop an arty on it just like LRMs do right on that target. Sound fair?


P.S.
Mods, I miss how the profanity filter would put in other funny words, rather than ******. Guess I am going to have to think of my own creative euphemisms if you aren't going to do it for me.

This.

Indirect fire is the reason ECM is so heavy handed, and PGI flops around like a mud-skipper when it comes to LRM changes.

In TT indirect fire almost always resulted in a miss, for those that have brought up that topic.

The other thing ppl will say is "OMG just shoot the spotter, duh" Well, yeah, easier said than done I'm afraid.

If indirect fire were better managed, say for example limiting the number of teammates that can take advantage of indirect fire, the LRM/ECM issue would be a lot easier to address.

[Mcgral18]

Vaderman, on 18 September 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

This.

Indirect fire is the reason ECM is so heavy handed, and PGI flops around like a mud-skipper when it comes to LRM changes.

In TT indirect fire almost always resulted in a miss, for those that have brought up that topic.

The other thing ppl will say is "OMG just shoot the spotter, duh" Well, yeah, easier said than done I'm afraid.

If indirect fire were better managed, say for example limiting the number of teammates that can take advantage of indirect fire, the LRM/ECM issue would be a lot easier to address.

By the way, penalties for making indirect fire: +1

spotter ran:+2
Spotter fired weapons:+1.

So, stationary spotter just spotting gives you a single extra to hit. If they are running and gunning, +4.

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 September 2014 - 08:49 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Wolfways, on 18 September 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

Public matches generally don't have stationary stock armour targets though.

Doesn't matter. If spread vs stationary targets is too tight, then its also too tight vs moving targets.

[DocBach]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Doesn't matter. If spread vs stationary targets is too tight, then its also too tight vs moving targets.

No, LRM's are affected by tracking strength, which makes them less effective the faster the target is moving. Hence light 'Mechs don't take much damage from LRM's unless they're augmented with a buff like TAG or Artemis.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Not according to the devs of MWO. Those systems narrow the spread of the LRM flight. As you have demonstrated.

Its the same. It can be "narrow" as in instead of 25% missiles hitting the target anywhere 50% of missiles do. Or it can be "narrow" as in instead of 50% missiles hitting CT, 90% do. Spread patterns on LRMs are just too tight.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Sorry, your crappy blurry recording made it look like it was a 1D. After careful review I see that it is in fact a 1B so it has 16/24 instead of 12/28. I stand corrected, it only has 2/3rds the armor you will typically find on a Commando in game.

Doesn't matter. It dies through CT while nothing else is damaged anywhere near as bad. Tiny fkn Commando mech.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Because you are not considering how the majority of LRMs are used. Artemis only works if you are in direct LoS of the target mech. It adds a ton and a crit slot to each launcher. If someone is using 4 LRM 15s that adds 4tons and 4 crit slots. Not all builds can afford that increase if they also don't intend the mech to be in LoS combat the majority of the time. If you are going to be getting your own TAGs then yes Artemis "might" be worth it, but remember, you are going to lob something going 160 while people are shooting you with things that go 1k+. While you are waiting for your LRMs to hit you will have to stare at your target and can't torso twist... while in direct LoS of them....

...are you not seeing how Artemis is not worth it to many LRM users?

You are completely ignoring my point yet again and turning the discussion somewhere else.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

You seem to be misinformed. ECM does cancel Streaks, but BAP at close range(where you would be firing Streaks) shuts down BAP. BAP does not help an LRM boat unless his teammate also has it which is a crapshoot in PuGging. Streaks move at 200 instead of 160 and have so much less distance to travel that Bitching Betty often warns you AFTER you have been hit that you have missiles inbound. AMS does shoot down streaks but not as well as it shoots down LRMs especially if the shot is close to point blank which LRMs can't do... okay Clan can but then they are doing like .01 damage per missile and that is wasting a lot of ammo and heat for almost no damage.

Dude, just read what I wrote before you post another useless comment, will ya?

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Streaks also "Don't Miss". Seriously. The only way to miss with them is to have them clip terrain or to be moving away from them and at the edge of their range when they are launched so they fly more than their range. LRMs rarely hit... against decent players.

It is exactly same for LRMs. If your target is in the open they don't miss.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Look, the whole problem here is that you are grossly naive about how LRMs are used, when they are, and how easy they are to avoid and spread damage. I am constantly avoiding large groups of LRMs in game and when I know I can't I will Torso Twist and take the damage on part that doesn't have damage or I don't care about. They don't "go to CT". Instead the fly towards the center mass of the mech and the first part they hit, they hit. If that is an arm, then that missile hits arm. Torso twisting works to negate CT damage. Artemis and TAG narrow the spread, in some cases they will make it more likely for all that damage to hit an Arm instead of CT if you are hitting the mech from the side.

And if you actually bother to read ... point was always about the lack of spread that eventually leads to CT blown off on most mechs.

[Mercules]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Doesn't matter. If spread vs stationary targets is too tight, then its also too tight vs moving targets.

The issue you are not grasping is that when a mech is moving against LRMs you don't hit CT unless it is facing directly towards you and moving incredibly slow. If it turns away, they hit a different component. If they are moving fast and lateral to you the missiles chase them arcing in and so they could be facing you the whole time and the missiles can come in from the side and hit R/L Torso/Arm.

A Laser will just hit where it is pointed. A PPC/Gauss/AC can be lead properly to control where it will land. LRMs track but are dependant on the target as to where they hit them. If they are dumb and stand their they will get cored, just like if they stand there while PPCs shoot them. If the move though they are less likely to get hit CT than against something like PPCs/Gauss/ACs.