353 replies to this topic

[Time Bandit]

ramjb, on 19 September 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

You're definining something called Situational Awareness. Which is a skill. And a skill every mech needs. When I'm in a direct fire weapons mech I have to keep control on my surroundings, know who is where, who might be flanking my position, who was sniping from that other position some time ago and might still be there. When the fight starts I have to prioritize targets, know when to fire, know when is best to delay my shots not to overheat, when you want to shoot your ballistic weapon, or when is better to hold fire not to waste ammo that might be worth it's weight in gold later on. You need to pay attention at which part of the enemy mech is more damaged, and try to focus fire there. Keep a constant eye on your cover and withdrawal routes, etc.

So the skills you are describing, are needed in EVERY MECH IN THE GAME.

However, in any mech other than lurmboats to get high damage you need to do something more than hit R and click your mouse. You must hitscan (lasers). You must lead the target (PPC/Ballistics). You have to predict enemy movements, have a soft hand at mouse displacement.

And on top of that, you MUST know how to do it under enemy direct fire, and also know when you rather move back to cover to avoid being fired at and taking damage. Torso twist to spread damage. Jump to both the enemy aim. and a long etc.

That's the part where EVERY MECH IN THE GAME demands skill...except for the lurmboats. Click-click-click. That's all what's required to hit. And you can do it behind cover and with no LOS to your target so you can't be fired at.


That's where the no-skill claim comes, and is pretty downright accurate. LRMs don't require skill at all to damage stuff. You only hit R and smash the button. Endstory.

Yeah well I have the shiniest meat bicycle.

[ramjb]

Time Bandit, on 19 September 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yeah well I have the shiniest meat bicycle.

Which is pretty much the only sensible answer, I guess, given that noone can explain how a guy with maybe 4-5 days of ingame experience can break 1000 points of damage with LRMs while he's struggling to hit 200 with anything else...other than admitting the weapon he was using is EZmode.

Edited by ramjb, 19 September 2014 - 05:13 PM.

[Time Bandit]

Probably because he was using other weapons too? I don't know, wasn't there. I just know in my own experience, the only way I've broken 1000 is with not only heavy use of the LRM but my ERML as well.

[Crimson Angel]

[Time Bandit]

Nice pic, Crimson. Had to click on it to see it though :0

[ramjb]

Time Bandit, on 19 September 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Probably because he was using other weapons too? I don't know, wasn't there. I just know in my own experience, the only way I've broken 1000 is with not only heavy use of the LRM but my ERML as well.

the guy was me and I didn't use anything else. I had a couple Medium lasers but I rarely used them and in that particular game I'm sure I didn't. There were Narcs around, that I do recall, and of course that was a huge bonus. Then again I was running that particular mech with that particular build because it was the only way I didn't feel worthless as in everything else I was just dying doing little damage. With that one I almost always guaranteed I would deal quite a lot of damage. The 1000 one (it was 1050ish) was a one off, but I did have 800+ damage games aswell. And they weren't rare.

After little time I realized that doing that was not helping me getting better at the game ,and changed my shadowhawk build for one with direct fire weapons. But since then I'm absolutely convinced that those weapons are EZmode and in dire need of a fix. If an absolute clueless noob like me could easily rake 500 damage, usually go up to 700, not-that-rarely go past 800 and even cross the 1000damage line, something is indeed off with the weapons I was using.

Edited by ramjb, 19 September 2014 - 05:21 PM.

[Wolfways]

Kavoh, on 19 September 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Moving into better positions to get good angles is what most other weapon systems require yes. Your statement saying "you must not be facing good players" has no ground. A good team will be in a spot where LRMs are prime, and all they have to do is utilize a good tag/narc mech and have at it. With this only extreme cover will protect the target. Average mountains. slopes, small buildings, ravines, etc. do nothing at all. Just because you have a hard time trying to solo as an LRM boat in solo que because you constantly drop target, doesn't mean coordinated groups do.

I don't have a hard time (my CPLT-C1 is probably my best mech), but it takes much more effort than my other mechs. I'll spend most of the match moving to different spots to get somewhere i can hit the enemy without hitting terrain. If i just sit behind cover the whole match firing off 9tons of ammo at other peoples locks (like some people think all LRM boats do) my match score/damage/kills would be pathetic.
TAG/NARC does not change the flight angle of the missiles (no idea where this idea came from) and most maps have abundant cover to use. You know, the bloke who designed the new map (Mech factory) said it is designed to allow more close range fights and has plenty of cover. He also said that it comes closest to Canyon Network. Yes Canyon Network is nothing but cover. Frozen City is practically nothing but cover (loads of buildings). River City (buildings), HPG Manifold (absolutely nothing but cover!)...

Quote

Do note, I am not saying they should have the way they are operated changed.

The fact that you say "you just haven't fought skilled players" only proves that LRMs are overboard as they require top players even to survive. (By your logic, not mine)

I'm not saying that at all. I'm not a top player and LRM's rarely bother me. When i say skilled players I'm actually thinking in three levels. New/bad - skilled - top players.
Not that it matters. the players in this thread apparently don't get killed by LRM's but just want them nerfed because they don't like them.

ramjb, on 19 September 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Which is pretty much the only sensible answer, I guess, given that noone can explain how a guy with maybe 4-5 days of ingame experience can break 1000 points of damage with LRMs while he's struggling to hit 200 with anything else...other than admitting the weapon he was using is EZmode.

Because when you're new you're also playing with new players (or similar ELO players) who haven't learned how to avoid LRM's.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp...

By your logic AC's are EZmode too as i used to get 1000 scores all the time in my JM6-S.

Edited by Wolfways, 19 September 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Kavoh]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

I don't have a hard time (my CPLT-C1 is probably my best mech), but it takes much more effort than my other mechs. I'll spend most of the match moving to different spots to get somewhere i can hit the enemy without hitting terrain. If i just sit behind cover the whole match firing off 9tons of ammo at other peoples locks (like some people think all LRM boats do) my match score/damage/kills would be pathetic.
TAG/NARC does not change the flight angle of the missiles (no idea where this idea came from) and most maps have abundant cover to use. You know, the bloke who designed the new map (Mech factory) said it is designed to allow more close range fights and has plenty of cover. He also said that it comes closest to Canyon Network. Yes Canyon Network is nothing but cover. Frozen City is practically nothing but cover (loads of buildings). River City (buildings), HPG Manifold (absolutely nothing but cover!)...


I'm not saying that at all. I'm not a top player and LRM's rarely bother me. When i say skilled players I'm actually thinking in three levels. New/bad - skilled - top players.
Not that it matters. the players in this thread apparently don't get killed by LRM's but just want them nerfed because they don't like them.


Because when you're new you're also playing with new players (or similar ELO players) who haven't learned how to avoid LRM's.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp...

By your logic AC's are EZmode too as i used to get 1000 scores all the time in my JM6-S.

"TAG/NARC does not change the flight angle of the missiles (no idea where this idea came from) and most maps have abundant cover to use."

I didn't say they did, but with tag and narc (I should have just said a scouting mech, but most would have one of those), the only job LRM users have (target ID) is done for them, which was what I was implying. If the LRMs had to hunt for their own locks, they would have to move to undesirable spots and thus normal cover/LoS would work. And the "abundant" cover you speak of usually leaves entire teams stacked behind a pillar/wall/building because of the LRainMs.

[Wolfways]

Kavoh, on 19 September 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

"TAG/NARC does not change the flight angle of the missiles (no idea where this idea came from) and most maps have abundant cover to use."

I didn't say they did, but with tag and narc (I should have just said a scouting mech, but most would have one of those), the only job LRM users have (target ID) is done for them, which was what I was implying. If the LRMs had to hunt for their own locks, they would have to move to undesirable spots and thus normal cover/LoS would work. And the "abundant" cover you speak of usually leaves entire teams stacked behind a pillar/wall/building because of the LRainMs.

How is it the only job the LRM user has? I'm not sure but do you mean the LRM user doesn't have to scout? If so then yes...obviously. If LRM mechs had to look for their own targets they'd just die while sandpapering the enemy.

Having teams stuck behind cover very rarely happens in my experience.

[KharnZor]

The ignorance in this thread boggles the mind.

[Moomtazz]

Scratx, on 19 September 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I'm not going to go through the entire thread so forgive me if somebody already noticed this... but...

You got targeted by no less than FOUR LRM boats.

Look carefully. LRM5-10-20's, C-Lrm10, C-Lrm15+Art and Lrm15+Art. You MUST have 4 mechs for that firepower combo, at least.

Sorry, but any mech focus-fired by 4 other mechs is going to melt in short order.

That is exactly the main problem with LRMs. All they have to do to focus fire is hit R and spam away. They don't even have t see the target or be exposed to danger. One LRM boat is no big deal, multiples make focus firing way too easy...dare I say it takes no skill?

[Moomtazz]

ramjb, on 19 September 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

After little time I realized that doing that was not helping me getting better at the game ,and changed my shadowhawk build for one with direct fire weapons.

Here is another reason I don't like LRMs as they are today. New players start relying on them and they don;t become better pilots.

[Wolfways]

Okay so as this thread is so full of fonts of knowledge, how about instead of complaining that LRM's are OP/EZmode/whatever how about giving ideas on how to fix them? Remove LRM's/indirect-fire is not an option.

Moomtazz, on 19 September 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Here is another reason I don't like LRMs as they are today. New players start relying on them and they don;t become better pilots.

Yes that's true, until they hit the point where their LRM's do very little then they have the choice of staying at their current ELO level or changing weapons.

Edited by Wolfways, 19 September 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[Kavoh]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

How is it the only job the LRM user has? I'm not sure but do you mean the LRM user doesn't have to scout? If so then yes...obviously. If LRM mechs had to look for their own targets they'd just die while sandpapering the enemy.

Having teams stuck behind cover very rarely happens in my experience.

In solo que, I agree, there are a lot of rambo players in there, but few times is the other team coordinated and quick enough to punish them. In group ques, at times two defensive playstyle teams drop at the same time and the stalemate is so bad that unless the team choosing to push goes all at once, the first one to cross either sides LoS gets LRMd, and high alphad, leaving anything, including assaults, cored. But! Thats irrelevant, a different story, and just the mentality of some teams.

As for the first point, imo its a bit more in depth than that. In short though, the LRM user does nothing different than any other mech, but has the ability to either push in with the other mechs, or simply stay back and provide cover fire from an area where noone has LoS on you. You can try and spin it any way to make it sound more advanced but its not too advanced of a playstyle and with good coordination from team mates, you rarely have to put yourself in harms way while maintaining maximum effect (as a pure LRM boat obviously. I die inside when I see mechs with 1 lrm 5 and 6 other weapons just sitting with other LRM mechs). The players aren't doing anything wrong or being cheesy, there's just no reason they should take any more risk than that when LRMs enable them to play off of their allies (which is essentially the problem people have been saying, that they play themselves).

LRMs aren't game shattering like they were in the distant past, but they definitely are in a delicate spot teetering on the side of problematic. One or two LRMs are generally fine, but massive boats in unison cross the threshold and swing into the realm of broken when combined with the situations we have been discussing.

EDIT: An idea on how to balance them? I can say reduce the climb and quick maneuverability of LRMs either altogether, or when going off of anothers lock/out of LoS or just make them only behave as they do now under assisted circumstances (read: Narc/Tag).

Edited by Kavoh, 19 September 2014 - 06:13 PM.

[Mercules]

ramjb, on 19 September 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Which is pretty much the only sensible answer, I guess, given that noone can explain how a guy with maybe 4-5 days of ingame experience can break 1000 points of damage with LRMs while he's struggling to hit 200 with anything else...other than admitting the weapon he was using is EZmode.

I can explain it. 4-5 days in game means his Elo was what?
We have been saying what about the targets of LRMs? Low skill targets = high damage. The other weapon systems don't have as high of a swing in damage because the target lacks skill. Roughly 30-40% of all LRMs hit a mech because most players can avoid them and the circumstances for hitting your target are sometimes difficult. Bad players get hit more frequently than that average so a new player like, who is facing other new players, can pull big numbers because the targets haven't learned to deal with them. Once they do then his numbers would drop and HE would have to figure out how to make LRMs work again, what avenues will have the most chance of hitting the target, what target locks are going to stick around long enough, when to move forward and direct target, when to hang back.

[ramjb]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Okay so as this thread is so full of fonts of knowledge, how about instead of complaining that LRM's are OP/EZmode/whatever how about giving ideas on how to fix them? Remove LRM's/indirect-fire is not an option.

Indirect fire serious accuracy nerf unless on TAG'd/NARC'd targets, forcing the LRM boat to choose to stay in cover hitting much less, or to try to get LOS and thus show himself, but hit more. Less ammo per ton of weapon (100 per ton sounds fine) to prevent lurmboating with 2400 missiles in store, thus emphasizing non-mashing fire and carefully choosing targets not to waste ammo. And probably a restriction so missile hardpoints can't accept missile launchers bigger than the tubes they have. No more "I'll put this LRM20 in this 6 tube launcher and I'll get the same effect as ripple-fired LRM5s".

This same points I already made in another thread. Didn't know I had to repeat them here - but here they are.

Mercules, on 19 September 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

I can explain it. 4-5 days in game means his Elo was what?

The day I purchased my first Jagermech -actually, in my first game with it- I was put in the same game as Sidestrafe (opposite side tho). Made a video out of it, too, because I made a point of not being killed by him. And I was killed by him. Made for a good fun clip. I uploaded it, so again, I can mention it as I can prove I'm not making it up.

That was on my 6th day in this game. I guess my ELO was sky-rocket-high to be matched in the same game as a player of his caliber. Right?.

Stop making ELO excuses. They just aren't valid.

Edited by ramjb, 19 September 2014 - 06:21 PM.

[Mercules]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Yes that's true, until they hit the point where their LRM's do very little then they have the choice of staying at their current ELO level or changing weapons.

Or learning that to use LRMs well you don't just pump as much ammo onto the mech as you can, stand in one spot, hit "R" and hold down the fire button. I've got a Stormcrow using 2 LRM 20s that I took out tonight. I use the 4 C-ERMLs as much if not more than the LRMs but I tend to LRM from about 200-300m away at the point where my targets have issues avoiding them because at 500+ it is simple to avoid them. This is about the only mech I use with LRMs on it, and it works but I am certainly not sitting off in the distance spamming LRMs and hoping a few get through and damage a mech like some people seem to imply is the way you use LRMs.

[Fut]

Moomtazz, on 19 September 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

That is exactly the main problem with LRMs. All they have to do to focus fire is hit R and spam away. They don't even have t see the target or be exposed to danger. One LRM boat is no big deal, multiples make focus firing way too easy...dare I say it takes no skill?

ramjb, on 19 September 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

[snip]

That's where the no-skill claim comes, and is pretty downright accurate. LRMs don't require skill at all to damage stuff. You only hit R and smash the button. Endstory.

To be perfectly honest with you, the mash-the-key LRM style you describe is pretty lame. However, I doubt that it's as easy to consistently have high damage victories with this style of play as you, and others, try to make it seem - but that's not the point of my post. My point is that I find it frustrating to see that people lump all LRM users into that category.

I pilot 2 Mechs that use LRMs; a HBK-4J and a HBK-GI. The 4J uses 2x LRM10s and the GI uses 1x LRM10. From my perspective, LRMs are not OP by any stretch of the imagination, and they require a lot of focus and skill. To use these Mechs effectively, I generally have to acquire my own locks. On occasion I'll see a lock from a team mate that I'll chance (TAG or NARC indicator, or I can see on the mini-map that they shouldn't lose LOS before my missiles hit) and I'll let a volley of LRMs off (more so in the 4J, the GI has extremely limited ammo). The skills you were describing above for Direct-Fire users are skills that I have to put to use all the time in these two Mechs - however, I also have to deal with the fact that people can easily dodge my attack as well (breaking LOS, ECM, AMS, Betty's Warning, Radar Derp Module), plus my missiles fly slow and scatter their damage across my targets.

From inside my cockpit, LRMs are difficult to use, at least more difficult that ACs and Lasers. I can't just pop out and damage my opponent exactly where I want to in a brief second.

Edited by Fut, 19 September 2014 - 06:19 PM.

[Wolfways]

Kavoh, on 19 September 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

In solo que, I agree, there are a lot of rambo players in there, but few times is the other team coordinated and quick enough to punish them. In group ques, at times two defensive playstyle teams drop at the same time and the stalemate is so bad that unless the team choosing to push goes all at once, the first one to cross either sides LoS gets LRMd, and high alphad, leaving anything, including assaults, cored. But! Thats irrelevant, a different story, and just the mentality of some teams.

As for the first point, imo its a bit more in depth than that. In short though, the LRM user does nothing different than any other mech, but has the ability to either push in with the other mechs, or simply stay back and provide cover fire from an area where noone has LoS on you. You can try and spin it any way to make it sound more advanced but its not too advanced of a playstyle and with good coordination from team mates, you rarely have to put yourself in harms way while maintaining maximum effect (as a pure LRM boat obviously. I die inside when I see mechs with 1 lrm 5 and 6 other weapons just sitting with other LRM mechs). The players aren't doing anything wrong or being cheesy, there's just no reason they should take any more risk than that when LRMs enable them to play off of their allies (which is essentially the problem people have been saying, that they play themselves).

LRMs aren't game shattering like they were in the distant past, but they definitely are in a delicate spot teetering on the side of problematic. One or two LRMs are generally fine, but massive boats in unison cross the threshold and swing into the realm of broken when combined with the situations we have been discussing.

I personally don't like to use indirect-fire as it wastes so much ammo, but yes it's easier to use your teams locks. Not as efficient, but easier.
Imo though LRM boats are taking a big risk. With their lack of direct-fire weapons they become easy targets and can't defend themselves against brawlers and need the support of their team in return for their support with missiles. It's just a different playstyle.

Quote

EDIT: An idea on how to balance them? I can say reduce the climb and quick maneuverability of LRMs either altogether, or when going off of anothers lock/out of LoS or just make them only behave as they do now under assisted circumstances (read: Narc/Tag).

Well...reducing the missile arc would make the game a lot easier. I'm not sure that's a good thing though tbh. I have suggested before that indirect-fire only be available on TAG/NARC/UAV, but tbh i don't care either way.

[Mercules]

ramjb, on 19 September 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

The day I purchased my first Jagermech I was put in the same game as Sidestrafe (opposite side tho). Made a video out of it, too, because I made a point of not being killed by him. And I was killed by him. Made for a good fun clip.

That was on my 6th day in this game. I guess my ELO was sky-rocket-high to be matched in the same game as a player of his caliber.

Stop making ELO excuses. They just aren't valid.

That was a MM issue and it happens on rare occasions. One occurrence isn't enough to prove that it happened every time so that Elo wasn't a factor. Here is the simple truth, and you prove it yourself:

"Skilled players negate any advantages LRMs have. Unskilled players don't. You effectiveness with LRMs is directly inverse to the skill of your target."

See that is why you view them as "no skill" because your skill doesn't have as great a swing on the effect of LRMs as your target's skill does.

Unskilled with LRMs vrs Unskilled against = big damage
Skilled with LRMs vrs Unskilled against = huge damage
Unskilled with LRMs vrs Skilled against = little if any damage
Skilled with LRMs vrs Skilled against = crapshoot - You might be able to find a solid target and light them up if they make a mistake or get stuck having to hold like the story above or you might not.