136 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Look Russ, I've been saying for a while you can't nerf SKILL! To nerf clan mechs any further would be totally unfair to the pilots that have been playing for years. We have learned how to build and use our mechs properly, and thats why we win.

We adapt and overcome. If we're so good, then maybe we shouldn't have any issues with the weapon nerfs? In fact, after this last patch, I've noticed almost no change whatsoever in my overall deadliness in game. I already design my builds to be heat efficient. I already design them to be trickier to master.

Nope, the only crowd these nerfs really hurt are those who took advantage of the former balance to create insanely unoptimized builds, relying on the sheer firepower and high damage potential to overcome their own deficiencies of not being a good pilot.

It's not just how many kills or wins you get either. A good pilot is also a good sport. They challenge themselves by not relying on things like overpowered weapons, artillery, or ganging up.

Competitive players are not always the best sports. They take the advantage because it's necessary to win, however the good pilots can differentiate between the two. They understand when it's okay to be competitive, and when it's okay to challenge themselves.

They aren't above and beyond themselves to fully overlook balance issues, and (while they may not like it) will provide good feedback on where the balance lies, even if that means nerfing the very mechs they enjoy, because even with the mechs nerfed, they know they can adapt and overcome.

You may call yourself elite, but if these nerfs have already affected you, and you're worried about more nerfs despite the fact that the Clans still have too high an advantage, then perhaps you need to reevaluate your own opinion of yourself as a player before you create another elitist topic that tries to shroud your own deficiencies by attacking the abilities of an entirely separate group of players?

Edited by Aresye, 17 September 2014 - 05:04 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Andross Deverow, on 17 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Jesus.... Stroke that e-p33n much? LOL! Gawd...

Regards

[Shredhead]

Gyrok, on 17 September 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

That is the ONE thing that is propping up the fact that clan weapons are basically inferior across the board...

PP FLD is still king guys...dance around it all you want, the reality is, nothing has changed for the IS. There is just more stuff to shoot at now...

Maybe 1v1. That's not true for matches with more players on each side.

Quote

Actually 228th, SwK, SJR and SRoT are all staying in the Inner Sphere...

Of the "tier 1 teams" only HoL is actually Clan faction.

But Clan is OP right...?

Yes. But we only stay IS because we want the juicy, juicy merc stuff later on in CW. You'll definitely see us field clan tech in comp drops though.

Yeshua Kerensky, on 17 September 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

The news in the grape vine is when CW comes out if it does not change they are fielding clans. You have to play to win, and that is not IS right now.

See above.

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Dude if you think those are the only 2 skilled Clan pilots (the argument and probability alone makes it sound stupid) You're smoking some good sheet. I'm not going to waste my time naming people I've come across that I respect as pilots but the numbers between Clan and (IS) would be about equal. The problem is the influx of brand new people flooding into the (IS) ranks that the skilled (IS) pilots have to fight beside. Needless to say the skilled (IS) pilots can't make up the skill gap.

And if you have any question about my skill level I would love to fight you one on one and twitch it so all can see.. If you don't accept the challenge then obviously you have your doubts about your skill.. I don't.


UPDATES

NERFS

Some of the nerfs where just token nerfs to shut (IS) pilots up and make them feel all warm and fuzzy. Unfortunately, instead of looking at clan mechs individually and nerfing them with quirks (as I suggested weeks ago) some clan mechs where just functionally destroyed such as the Nova, the Nova can hardly function with the same load of a 6x med laser Jenner, that's just inexcusable.

ELO

The funny part is my ELO puts me right at the middle level where I'm fighting brand new pilots, their ELO hasn't had the chance to go down yet and I just chew them up like bubble gum. I had 50+ mechs and had to try them all and died a lot when I first started playing.. my ELO has been playing catch up for months, now I'm all green and climbing. I think work in this area needs to be done as well, I'm putting 50-75 kills on my KDR per week, I'm sure as my ELO goes up more that will taper off a bit.

You can count in pretty much all top tier comp players alongside Adi and JagerXII. Your argument doesn't fly.

[Aresye]

Shredhead, on 17 September 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

You can count in pretty much all top tier comp players alongside Adi and JagerXII. Your argument doesn't fly.

Or just anybody here: http://www.mwomercs.com/tournaments

Note the distinctive absence of the OP.

[mongo2006]

Shredhead, on 17 September 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

Maybe 1v1. That's not true for matches with more players on each side.



Yes. But we only stay IS because we want the juicy, juicy merc stuff later on in CW. You'll definitely see us field clan tech in comp drops though.



See above.


You can count in pretty much all top tier comp players alongside Adi and JagerXII. Your argument doesn't fly.

well they ain't on this list so your rebuttal is groundless http://www.mwomercs.com/tournaments Now they may be great pilots I don't know but don't be so quick to judge because there are some great pilots that have no intention of being in competitive groups or functions.

[Shredhead]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

well they ain't on this list so your rebuttal is groundless http://www.mwomercs.com/tournaments Now they may be great pilots I don't know but don't be so quick to judge because there are some great pilots that have no intention of being in competitive groups or functions.

Wut? What the hell does all of this have to do with what you said? And if you don't recognize the names of top comp players on this list, you have to be blind. Or not around for long.

[a gaijin]

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

You guys have already been told the plan - I am still hoping to not touch their weapons again. - IS Quirks and at the least fix what I consider a bug when a clan mech has there Side Torso destroyed yet they keep 100% of their Engine heat sinks. At the least we need to fix that with their ST destruction. These items and I hope were there In short Clan players - smile life is good

This makes the most sense out of all the great (and a few not so great) suggestions here.

Much appreciated

[kapusta11]

ANY nerf to Clan mech will be biased and should be considered ONLY when everyone have access to them. Most of those who bought Clan packs were already good pilots.

[El Bandito]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

I don't think it's fair that Clan pilots have to pay for (IS) lack of piloting skill or tactics, leave the mechs alone and teach the (IS) how to properly fight them.

Russ is only going to give Clan XL engine ST destruction penalty and some quirk boosts for IS mechs.

Hold your horses.


And I can play better than half the Clan pilots, from what I have seen, given same mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 September 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[NeoCodex]

Murphy7, on 17 September 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

I understand that one does not necessarily include or preclude the other, but:

• Clans (we) win beause the pilots are better / IS (they) lose because they are bad at the game
  
• Clans (we) deserve our superior technology because it is superior and has nothing to do with balanced play

Just has a certain cognitive dissonance for me.


If you are better, leveling out the technology or other balancing might make matches more competitive, that should be good right?

If changes are made and the field levels itself out, maybe your skills weren't as sharp as you thought, so you can hone them more, right?


I don't know. Ice cream headache.

That is a good point, and I don't mind a level playing field (hell, even I play still play my IS mechs 50% of the time ever since the Clans came out) but I think most clan players are legitemately concerned their expensive investment will be over nerfed and left standing completely useless in the mechlab for rest of the eternity, like most Novas and Summoners already are. I didn't even get to touch the Nova before it got hammered, now i will probably never even bother mastering it and just sell the two extra chassis, but the Prime wall always stay there in the hangar, unable to get rid off, looking at me, remembering me on the wasted purchase and what the nerf hammer can do.

Edited by NeoCodex, 17 September 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[EvilCow]

I vote for the Most Pathetic Thread of the Year Award (MPTY).

Edited by EvilCow, 18 September 2014 - 12:51 AM.

[MoonfireSpam]

Going to give the OP 10/10 for trolling of the highest order, only because it would further dent my faith in humanity if he was doing anything except trolling.

[Ens]

dunno if OP just trolling or afraid of being unable to win anymore when balancing hits

[Zuesacoatl]

I am a clan player, and I can not find a reason to go against st penalties. I can think of a few good disingenuous reasons so that I can keep my honestly more powerful mechs, but honesty tends to win out for me. Even if clans could swap to a standard engine, I can guarantee you will only find only an exceptionally small amount of clan players doing it because the clan xl is far superior to it even with a nerf on heat after a loss.

[kapusta11]

So another HEAT nerf eh? Isn't losing half of you loadout bad enough? The more I read this topic the more I realize that OP might be right.

Edited by kapusta11, 18 September 2014 - 01:44 AM.

[BOWMANGR]

Reading posts of people arguing that Clans are at a disadvantage because they are not able to change Engine to Standard when they have an obviously huge overpowered ability with the Clan XL's survivability and tonnage capacity is... amusing at the very least.

They are comparing certain guaranteed death, to the "disadvantage" Clan mechs have when they lose a side torso. They lose half their weapons and heatsinks, boohoo.
It's so not cool to be able to continue to fight and do some damage instead of being instantly dead and go play another match right? All those lucky IS pilots who instantly die XL deaths are overpowered because they just go and play another match while the poor Clanner has to continue playing in the same match with halved firepower. It's so sad. Clan XL gives you no relief like the XL does. I feel for you.
.
.
.
.
SERIOUSLY? !?
The word hypocritical comes to mind...

Thankfully, I finally see Clan pilots who aren't secretly trying to keep their unfair advantage intact to come out and admit that something needs to be done.

Although I do have to say that because not all Clan mechs are OP, I believe that the general overall nerfs should be light and the worst offenders, namely God Timber Wolf {really tired of seeing mediocre pilots seem like heroes because they just let the god mech do everything for them}, the Stormcrow and the Direwolf. should be brought into line with negative quirks just as the worst IS mechs should be buffed respectively. That way, Clan mechs which are not OP should be able to level out with the stupidly OP trio.

I'd also like to say that although I like the quirks idea the current implementation is a bit on the conservative side. I'd like to see more intense quirks, a 5% bonus to X ability is insignificant and doesn't really affect balance. The only really nice quirk which immediately made a difference was the +10 HP to Hunchies Right Torso.

[Willard Phule]

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Yes Clanners I think we can at least agree on that being a bug and needing fixed...then I think I can get the rest of the way with the IS changes.

Clans are still very different with their technology and more powerful in many settings BUT we hopefully have a very competitive CW

Remember:

IS Mech runs XL and loses a ST they die

Clan Mech loses ST they Live and are still fairly deadly.

Fixing it so they actually lose some Engine heat sinks at the least seems very reasonable

You know, I realize my opinion is worthless, but there's something that everyone seems to be missing here with regard to "engine hits."

One of the biggest problems with MW:O in general, as far as "critical hits" are concerned, is the fact that with the way the Cryengine works, you can't do multiple engine hits with noticeable results like you can in tabletop. Yeah, I know, tabletop...let the flaming commence.

But, one of the biggest factors in Battletech with regard to heat are the engine hits. 3 Engine criticals and you're done. The first two add heat and reduce speed (call it whatever mechanic you want...shielding hit, heat sinks ruined, whatever). That's for ALL engines and is the reason why Clan XL engines are such a boon. If you lose a ST, that's only 2 engine hits. IS XL engines are 3 hits and thus destroyed.

I mean, yeah, the current plan is a reasonable bandage but it's not a fix. For it to be a solid fix, there would have to be some way for EVERY engine out there to receive 3 critical hits before being destroyed...Standard, IS XL and Clan XL alike. I get that a lot of people feel the Clan XL is overpowered because they can survive an ST destruction and keep going, but even with the "3 strikes and your out" rule of Tabletop, it still happens. Granted, it seriously cuts their speed and depending on the loadout, stops them from firing a lot of what they have left. But even a single engine hit on a Standard engine seriously effects them...nevermind a second one. We won't even talk about gyro hits...we already know that there's no way to mess with the pinpoint accuracy that's going here.

One factor to keep in mind, along with the whole "this isn't tabletop" thing is the lack of flexibility of the Omnis due to hardpoint restriction and locked in slots that you've built into them.

As an example, back in MW4, they had ballistic, energy, missile and omni hardpoints. Omni points could be used for any of the three. The current setup of just ballistic, energy and missile limits that flexibility significantly. In many instances, such as the Thor, it makes the difference between making a mech that can survive losing a ST and one that can't.

Oh well, I've rambled enough. There's my two cents. Ignore immediately.

Edited by Willard Phule, 18 September 2014 - 01:51 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

It sounds like the devs just want to do Heat penalties on side torso loss and not add any movement penalties.

I think a small movement penalty should be looked at, but I can deal with a heat penalty only. It will be interesting to see how that works out.

[Joseph Mallan]

Green Mamba, on 17 September 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Since "US" IS Pilots suck so bad we need all the advantages we can Get ..HAHA

Yes that's why You Pilot a Firestarter and I drive an Atlas or Battlemaster! We are playing to our strengths!
I still stand by Nerfing the Clans to much is bad, but the heat for torso destruction IS a good suggestion. Clanners run hot! 5-10 more heat could be quite devastating.

IF a true crit system happens, IS Mechs should suffer this as well at 2 Engine hits as well.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

Yes that's why You Pilot a Firestarter and I drive an Atlas or Battlemaster! We are playing to our strengths!
I still stand by Nerfing the Clans to much is bad, but the heat for torso destruction IS a good suggestion. Clanners run hot! 5-10 more heat could be quite devastating.

IF a true crit system happens, IS Mechs should suffer this as well at 2 Engine hits as well.

That's sort of the point. It's a shame that they can't assign actual criticals to things like engines or gyros. We know they have the ability to put knockdown into the game....if only they could give Gyros actual criticals and make you fall when you take a hit or lose a leg.