279 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 24 September 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

You can't argue that something needs to be done to the IS XL engines because when they lose a side torso, they die.

We can argue however that taking a risky engine is a choice you get to make.

Or you can choose to use a STD engine for more survivability.



This choice, and many others are forbidden to clan mechs.

There is no option in a DWF to take the safer engine, ever.


These are mechs with locked structure and locked armor, and locked DHS that are also locked into locations.

You don't get to choose any of that.

You also do not get to choose your engine size.



These are the penalties that justify benefits like Clan XL - except now that Clan XL is getting nerfed will we see any of that alleviated?

We should, but I doubt it will happen.


I'd love 35+ tons of free pod space for my Timber Wolf, or to take Endo on my WHK and drop Ferro.

I can never do these things, but I accept that because I get benefits from omni-pods and Clan XL.



So what is the tipping point where the restrictions on all things clan become enough to where locked items can be loosened?


The trade off for superior engine that is locked, with gear that is locked is being broken as this engine is being nerfed/downgraded - which will hurt the Clan Assaults by quite a lot.


In the face of upcoming IS mechs like the King Crab, these nerfs might even be jumping the gun. Or is it OK to have a dual gauss toting 100T assault mech with a STD engine, Endo, and as many or as few DHS as the build actually needs instead of having 10 of them strapped on whether you want them or not?

Is it OK for the King Crab to have all of that "because IS"?

[Daneiel]

IraqiWalker, on 24 September 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

I'm not sure how to respond to this. You do know there is this thing called moderation, right?

There are many steps between implement clan XL CORRECTLY, and implement clan XL correctly, but MAKE IS NOT PLAY FOR A WEEK IF THEY DO ANYTHING TO THEIR MECHS.

You're honestly sounding on the crazy side right now. We're talking about lore for engines, and your argument is that lore should be implemented both ways. However, that means that clan XLs should get the lore fix, since all other engines are already operating according to lore.

You can't have the lore fix be there when you like it, and use it for only one side. That is hypocritical. Those were basically your words, and I'm sending them right back at you. Right now IS XL, and STD engines operate according to lore, but clan XLs aren't operating according to lore. Shouldn't lore be implemented both ways?

As for stalling mechs due to customization: That is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, and there is literally no reason to apply that into the game. When we apply lore to a section of the game, that doesn't mean we have to apply it for every single aspect of the game. Otherwise, you need to turn in all your clan mechs, and be banned from participating in CW for the time being, since your clan isn't here yet.


There's applying the lore in a balanced, and reasonable manner, and then there's going off-the-ramp crazy. Your suggestion (and the joke one I made about being banned from CW), are of the second kind. Applying the lore engine fix to clan XLs, isn't biased, and is in the reasonable bracket (after all, IS engines are working according to lore, why should clan engines not work according to lore?)

One more IS mechs don't operate exactly as the lore - the reason of that is that key elements was rermoved of the game other was never implemented - The IS XL engines work according the lore only to the point where you need to get out your wallet and spend insane amount of c-bills for customisation - now did you get what mean "slap the engine -> the cost of the engine + manipulation cost " - in the lore customisation is rare because of the cost and logistic problems (feel free to correct me here). And here is - you can not call for full lore implementation of the clan XL engines without call for changes where IS restrictions are placed - money and logistic ( lockdown period) , now i think you will understand me - i am all for lore implementation , but it needs to be done right , not lets go full lore restrictions for the clans but not for the IS and please understand me right - i care for IS mechs as much as the Clan ones - i am disgusted from the abominations created via that mechlab.

[Molossian Dog]

@Ultimatum X

You guys are really experiencing some serious luxury problems. Or rather you are anticipating them.

Especially since there is -no- downside to a clan XL yet. I´d suggest you reserve your panic for the time disadvantages are implemented.

----

"Is it OK for the King Crab to have all of that "because IS"?"

Besides the point the King Crab is also not implemented yet:

Wether two gauss on a 100 ton Mech are ok or not is almost a different question. What matters in what we are discussing is the IS-Clan comparison.

And you intentionally fail to mention that:
a ) two clan gauss weight 6 ton less than two IS gauss.
b ) two clan gauss occupy 2 slots less than two IS gauss
c ) your bemoaned Clan XL saves yet more tons. And slots in comparison to an IS XL.

All this means that a similarily equipped clan mech will bring weapons -in addition- to two gauss. Weapons with more range and damage than the IS equivalent. Weapons you can easily use due to the fixed 10 DHS which 2 gauss don´t use.

If that doesn´t compensate for the KC STD engine, then I don´t know what will. Especially since a side torso destruction will not kill a clan XL Mech, if PGI´s way of implementating lore so far is any guidance.

-----

Pre-emptive hysteria is not pretty to watch.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 25 September 2014 - 04:12 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

The thing is these are construction penalties, rather than gameplay penalties, so all they do is decrease the viability of less-optimal chassis. So there are some mechs that aren't actually affected by these much, such as the Storm Crow and Timberwolf, because they already have pretty optimized chassis.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

We can argue however that taking a risky engine is a choice you get to make.

Or you can choose to use a STD engine for more survivability.



This choice, and many others are forbidden to clan mechs.

There is no option in a DWF to take the safer engine, ever.


These are mechs with locked structure and locked armor, and locked DHS that are also locked into locations.

You don't get to choose any of that.

You also do not get to choose your engine size.



These are the penalties that justify benefits like Clan XL - except now that Clan XL is getting nerfed will we see any of that alleviated?

We should, but I doubt it will happen.


I'd love 35+ tons of free pod space for my Timber Wolf, or to take Endo on my WHK and drop Ferro.

I can never do these things, but I accept that because I get benefits from omni-pods and Clan XL.



So what is the tipping point where the restrictions on all things clan become enough to where locked items can be loosened?


The trade off for superior engine that is locked, with gear that is locked is being broken as this engine is being nerfed/downgraded - which will hurt the Clan Assaults by quite a lot.


In the face of upcoming IS mechs like the King Crab, these nerfs might even be jumping the gun. Or is it OK to have a dual gauss toting 100T assault mech with a STD engine, Endo, and as many or as few DHS as the build actually needs instead of having 10 of them strapped on whether you want them or not?

Is it OK for the King Crab to have all of that "because IS"?

I think you misunderstood my post, mainly because you sound like you're disagreeing with me, but you and I are actually on the same page.

I was saying that IS XLs are working fine, and as intended, however clan XLs aren't since they still don't have the debuff installed. My problem was with the guy I was responding to, who wanted IS mechs to be locked out of use for several weeks while changing engines.

Also, locked clan engines is a detriment, it's just not big enough to actually bring them close to balance against IS engines.

Clan XLs should be somewhere between IS STDs, and IS XLs. Not above them. IS STD gives max survivability for a weight cost, while saving slots. Clan XLs should give better weight savings, for a slot cost, and risk when losing a Side Torso, and death when losing both. So it's less survivable than IS STD, but better than IS XL. While IS XLs give the most weight savings for IS mechs, for 2 more slots than Clan XLs, and the risk of death when losing a side torso.

Daneiel, on 25 September 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

One more IS mechs don't operate exactly as the lore - the reason of that is that key elements was rermoved of the game other was never implemented - The IS XL engines work according the lore only to the point where you need to get out your wallet and spend insane amount of c-bills for customisation - now did you get what mean "slap the engine -> the cost of the engine + manipulation cost " - in the lore customisation is rare because of the cost and logistic problems (feel free to correct me here). And here is - you can not call for full lore implementation of the clan XL engines without call for changes where IS restrictions are placed - money and logistic ( lockdown period) , now i think you will understand me - i am all for lore implementation , but it needs to be done right , not lets go full lore restrictions for the clans but not for the IS and please understand me right - i care for IS mechs as much as the Clan ones - i am disgusted from the abominations created via that mechlab.

Ok, seriously. What are you talking about? First off, customization wasn't done in 3025 because the materials weren't there, and it was expensive. Second of all, We're asking for the implementation of lore as far as clan XL engines' debuff when they lose a side torso. If we go by your "insanely twisted" logic, then you don't get your clan mech until 3 months after you pay for it, and if you get destroyed in a match, wait another 2 months before the engine is fixed, then another month before pods are installed.

Again: your argument is in the bat-****-insane section. Right now here's how it stands: IS - decent lore implementation for the engines. Clan- NO, NONE, ZIP, ZILCH, lore implementation on their engines.

Unless you can understand that much, we really shouldn't be arguing/debating this. I don't have the time to explain the same point 5 different ways.

By the way. IS mechs do operate according to lore. If you have the money you can customize them. Which we have, and do. You're talking about the standard military guys. Yes, the never customized their mechs, because they are not allowed to, and don't usually get paid enough to do so.

However, the independent guys, they customized their mechs whenever they could. Look at Kai-Allard Liao, he removed the AC 20 from his YLW and slapped a Gauss rifle instead. That's ONE example, there are many where the mech was fully gutted, and rebuilt from the ground up.

Don't use some insane lore restrictions as a shield to hide behind, especially not when you're missing the scope or scale of the argument.

Or maybe you want to lose all your mechs, and only pilot one randomly assigned clan mech for the entirety of your MW:O career? I mean, if you want to go crazy with the lore. Let's go all the way, right? Are you seeing how flawed, and mistaken that application of lore is?

Here's reasonable application of the lore:

Hey, clan XLs aren't fully implemented yet, how about we wrap that up. Now we have IS STDs for most survival, IS XLs for maximum weight saving with a high risk of destruction. Clan XLs for best weight saving and better survivability than IS XLs. However, when you lose a side torso, you lose some benefits.

This makes the engine hierarchy go like this: STD>C-XL>IS XL. Instead of C-XL>IS STD>IS XL. This makes Clan XLs balanced, instead of absolutely a step up from IS engines in every single way possible.

Everything else you are talking about, is unrelated to the actual discussion about the engines. Focus on that aspect please.

Yes, I understand that locked engines are a downside, and I firmly believe that. However, that's no excuse to keep something broken/not fully implemented.

And this is a pointer to help with future discussion: Please use paragraphs, and break the text from one giant wall, into smaller, easier to read sections. It makes a huge difference.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 25 September 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[Mystere]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Is it OK for the King Crab to have all of that "because IS"?

I am 100% sure that on the day the King Crab is released, there will be at least one post calling for the reversal of all Clan nerfs.

[Daneiel]

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood my post, mainly because you sound like you're disagreeing with me, but you and I are actually on the same page.

I was saying that IS XLs are working fine, and as intended, however clan XLs aren't since they still don't have the debuff installed. My problem was with the guy I was responding to, who wanted IS mechs to be locked out of use for several weeks while changing engines.

Also, locked clan engines is a detriment, it's just not big enough to actually bring them close to balance against IS engines.

Clan XLs should be somewhere between IS STDs, and IS XLs. Not above them. IS STD gives max survivability for a weight cost, while saving slots. Clan XLs should give better weight savings, for a slot cost, and risk when losing a Side Torso, and death when losing both. So it's less survivable than IS STD, but better than IS XL. While IS XLs give the most weight savings for IS mechs, for 2 more slots than Clan XLs, and the risk of death when losing a side torso.






Ok, seriously. What are you talking about? First off, customization wasn't done in 3025 because the materials weren't there, and it was expensive. Second of all, We're asking for the implementation of lore as far as clan XL engines' debuff when they lose a side torso. If we go by your "insanely twisted" logic, then you don't get your clan mech until 3 months after you pay for it, and if you get destroyed in a match, wait another 2 months before the engine is fixed, then another month before pods are installed.

Again: your argument is in the bat-****-insane section. Right now here's how it stands: IS - decent lore implementation for the engines. Clan- NO, NONE, ZIP, ZILCH, lore implementation on their engines.

Unless you can understand that much, we really shouldn't be arguing/debating this. I don't have the time to explain the same point 5 different ways.

By the way. IS mechs do operate according to lore. If you have the money you can customize them. Which we have, and do. You're talking about the standard military guys. Yes, the never customized their mechs, because they are not allowed to, and don't usually get paid enough to do so.

However, the independent guys, they customized their mechs whenever they could. Look at Kai-Allard Liao, he removed the AC 20 from his YLW and slapped a Gauss rifle instead. That's ONE example, there are many where the mech was fully gutted, and rebuilt from the ground up.

Don't use some insane lore restrictions as a shield to hide behind, especially not when you're missing the scope or scale of the argument.

Or maybe you want to lose all your mechs, and only pilot one randomly assigned clan mech for the entirety of your MW:O career? I mean, if you want to go crazy with the lore. Let's go all the way, right? Are you seeing how flawed, and mistaken that application of lore is?

Here's reasonable application of the lore:

Hey, clan XLs aren't fully implemented yet, how about we wrap that up. Now we have IS STDs for most survival, IS XLs for maximum weight saving with a high risk of destruction. Clan XLs for best weight saving and better survivability than IS XLs. However, when you lose a side torso, you lose some benefits.

This makes the engine hierarchy go like this: STD>C-XL>IS XL. Instead of C-XL>IS STD>IS XL. This makes Clan XLs balanced, instead of absolutely a step up from IS engines in every single way possible.

Everything else you are talking about, is unrelated to the actual discussion about the engines. Focus on that aspect please.

Yes, I understand that locked engines are a downside, and I firmly believe that. However, that's no excuse to keep something broken/not fully implemented.

And this is a pointer to help with future discussion: Please use paragraphs, and break the text from one giant wall, into smaller, easier to read sections. It makes a huge difference.

OK i think you don't understand me ( probable because my English its hard for me to explain it properly ) -you want Clan XL -> destroyed ST -> slow down , 1/3 heat dispersion lost - i am fine with that , but in the same time clans are stuck withexactly that XL engine - again i am fine with that , but on the other hand IS have full customisation without any penalty except the price of the engine that you can even rotate between your mechs without any additional cost - i am not agree with that -> clan XL -> destroyed ST-> slow and loosing heat sinks , if you add that you need to add -> IS mech you decide to touch your engine in mechlab you need to pay for the manipulation as addition to the cost of the engine (or any other customisation ) -that is fair , that is the lore (at least i remember it in that way - if you know something different that you don't need to pay for your techs work in the mechlab or these changes become instant please share it) .I can not explain it better - or my English is really awful or you just trying to not understand me !

Edited by Daneiel, 25 September 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Daneiel, on 25 September 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

OK i think you don't understand me ( probable because my English its hard for me to explain it properly ) -you want Clan XL -> destroyed ST -> slow down , 1/3 heat dispersion lost - i am fine with that , but in the same time clans are stuck withexactly that XL engine - again i am fine with that , but on the other hand IS have full customisation without any penalty except the price of the engine that you can even rotate between your mechs without any additional cost - i am not agree with that -> clan XL -> destroyed ST-> slow and loosing heat sinks , if you add that you need to add -> IS mech you decide to touch your engine in mechlab you need to pay for the manipulation as addition to the cost of the engine (or any other customisation ) -that is fair .I can not explain it better - or my English is really awful or you just trying to not understand me !

No, I'm understanding what you're saying. I'm saying that the idea is not viable, compared to just tweaking clan XLs, because stuck with them or not, they are still better than where they should be.

Being stuck with them is not enough of a handicap. What you are suggesting is not a good solution. In fact, it's a very bad solution. It will stop large portions of the player base from playing the game for extended periods of time, and will in fact make it impossible to get, or keep new players in the game.

Whether or not the engine in the mech is the best one for it, the clan engines are still too strong. Also, for the record, clans don't use standard engines, so all you have is XLs. After this fix is implemented, who knows, maybe it will be a good enough reason to allow clan mechs to change engines.

However, right now clan XLs are two slots smaller than IS XLs, and survive as good as an IS STD, if not better since they allow for good mobility. Being locked down to a specific engine size is a big hindrance. I would love to strap an XL 325 in the T-Wolf instead of the 375 in it, for example. However, it's not a big enough hindrance to consider clan engines balanced.

[Daneiel]

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

No, I'm understanding what you're saying. I'm saying that the idea is not viable, compared to just tweaking clan XLs, because stuck with them or not, they are still better than where they should be.

Being stuck with them is not enough of a handicap. What you are suggesting is not a good solution. In fact, it's a very bad solution. It will stop large portions of the player base from playing the game for extended periods of time, and will in fact make it impossible to get, or keep new players in the game.

Whether or not the engine in the mech is the best one for it, the clan engines are still too strong. Also, for the record, clans don't use standard engines, so all you have is XLs. After this fix is implemented, who knows, maybe it will be a good enough reason to allow clan mechs to change engines.

However, right now clan XLs are two slots smaller than IS XLs, and survive as good as an IS STD, if not better since they allow for good mobility. Being locked down to a specific engine size is a big hindrance. I would love to strap an XL 325 in the T-Wolf instead of the 375 in it, for example. However, it's not a big enough hindrance to consider clan engines balanced.

Are you sure ???? What about the clan lights - i don't care for the heavies or the assaults - and Adder is stuck with 210 xl if the player loose its ST he will go even slower , but the super hero firestarter can use the same engine that he own already for his raven without any additional cost , on how many mechs you can use the same engine without any additional cost ???? - See my point you complaining about the clans , but you totally ignore IS benefits in the game .You call for the lore rules , but only for the clan mechs , when i ask you the lore rules to be added for the IS too , you backed off and saying that i am insane - for me your acting very hypocritical in that case - call for enforcing all of the lore rules or non that is .

[IraqiWalker]

Daneiel, on 25 September 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Are you sure ???? What about the clan lights - i don't care for the heavies or the assaults - and Adder is stuck with 210 xl if the player loose its ST he will go even slower , but the super hero firestarter can use the same engine that he own already for his raven without any additional cost , on how many mechs you can use the same engine without any additional cost ???? - See my point you complaining about the clans , but you totally ignore IS benefits in the game .You call for the lore rules , but only for the clan mechs , when i ask you the lore rules to be added for the IS too , you backed off and saying that i am insane - for me your acting very hypocritical in that case - call for enforcing all of the lore rules or non that is .

What if that player only has the Firestarter? This is the part you're not thinking about. He gets the FS9, upgrades the engine, and now he can't play the game at all since it's gonna take 2 weeks?

You're punishing people for something not in the game (engine swapping), while keeping a broken advantage in game (during matches). Engine swapping doesn't happen during matches. But broken XLs are in the matches.

That adder will still move at over 90 Kph after losing a side torso, while the Firestarter is still dead. DO you see how that is just obscenely powerful in comparison? If you apply the engine fix, then the adder is still moving around after losing a side torso, but it's moving at 60+kph, while the FS9 is dead.

Notice how it's closer, and more balanced.

I'm saying you're insane because the lore rules you are suggesting have literally no benefit to anyone, and don't impact mech performance in the matches. Understand that. What matters is how the mechs perform on the field.

We're discussing engine performance lore rules, and you're talking about engine swapping construction rules. Notice how those are two different things? I'm not backing down from anything, but I will not waste my time trying to explain to you why you're wrong multiple times. Once or twice is fine, 4 times, and I have better things to waste my time on.

If we follow your lore suggestion, here's what's going to happen:

I'll swap engines for my mech, since I'm new, and it's only been a week or less for me of playing. I have no other mechs, and now I need to wait for several weeks until I can play. How about instead, I go play some other game instead? Also, once the engine swap penalty is done, I'm still going into the match with that upgraded engine. If I swap it around with other mechs, I'm still going into the match with that engine. Do you see how this actually fixes NOTHING? It has no bearing at all on mech performance in matches. It just prohibits people from customizing their mechs. Which is an absurdly stupid idea.

Customization should be encouraged, not prohibited.

On the other hand, my engine suggestion actually impacts match performance, and brings balance to mech performance on the field.

Again, to simplify it: Your suggestion has no impact on mech performance in matches, while this engine fix that should have been there from day 1 does.

Your solution is literally pointing at something else, unrelated to the topic at hand, and going "how about that?"

Edited by IraqiWalker, 25 September 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[mongo2006]

IraqiWalker, on 21 September 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I've already crunched the numbers. If the IS pilots are stupid, they will try to mimic the clan builds, instead of relying on the fact that their mechs are more customizable. If you make identical set ups, clans end up having more slots, but similar if not less weight.

The argument that IS pilots are less skilled is actually supported by the stats. It's not that pilots for the Inner Sphere are bad pilots, it's just that for every test the overwhelming majority of new players are on the IS side. In fact, for the first 4 or so tests, they were ONLY on the IS side. Having even ONE (C) mech on your team dropped that player's impact on the match by as much as 60% if not more.

Clan tech is OP for the public queue. That is true. However, that is not the tech's fault, it's actually quite balanced against IS tech. No, the problem is with the players. The tactic used by almost 99% of all players in the PuG, almost exclusively, is to start with long range poking, and then move into a brawl later on. The problem is that long range poking is what the clans excel at. Leading to the clans winning the early game, and then rolling the IS teams once they are 3-4 mechs ahead. Which is almost impossible to counter. The test matches that my teams won (I was playing IS for a few of them), were ones where we knew what was going on, didn't have anyone suicide because they were a whiny failure, and we used cover to close in on the clans and engage them at short range. Where the IS holds the upper hand.


So yes, clan tech is OP, and P2W against staring-at-the-sun-can't-breathe-without-a-reminder-window-licking-players. I absolutely agree. It's taken months for most of us to get enough of our IS players (the ones not on the forums) to understand that IS wins at close range and hit and run, and that they should stop being delusional about beating a clan mech at range. We still have a MASSIVE chunk of the IS player base that still doesn't comprehend that.

Clan tech isn't OP. Clan tech seems OP because the tactic used in the PuG queue lends itself wholly to it. The tactics prevalent in the PuG queue make clan tech seem OP. That's not the tech's fault, that's the players' fault.

Before you go on another rant accusing me of being a test tube baby, don't. I'm an IS player, and will be an IS player during CW.

As for the engines. Clan engines should stay as is. What needs to happen is adding the penalties when a clan mech loses a side torso, since the engine suffers near-critical damage. Those penalties being: Increased heat, and reduced heat threshold, reduced movement speed, and reduced torso and arm movement speed.

Your example of the Nova build is inherently flawed since you didn't factor in burn times, heat, or cycle times.
Yes those 19 DHS on the Nova, aren't cooling it better than the 18 on the Hunchie. The 5 JJs are almost wasted tonnage right now with how JJs work (not helpful with heat either btw).

Shredhead made most of these arguments (much better in many cases) a while ago. Here's an excerpt of our back and forth if you want this to become a debate, should help move this along faster, since we'll all be on the same page:

Spoiler

Spoiler

My reason for going with one point at a time was so that we can establish foundations, and then we can come back to those as the argument develops.
Also, before forming any more responses, I ask that you take a look at this spreadsheet with the pod quirks, to add more to your data pool.
This is also going to be viewed by other people, as it is on the forums, so I will explain certain aspects even if I know for a fact, you know them, as I don't know how informed others will be.

I'm going to go through them one by one, comparing them to IS mechs with the exact same weight (not +5 tons like some might want)
mechs

Spoiler

Kitfox

Spoiler

Kitfox (30 tons): completely stripped, has FF, and endo, XL180 (which it can't upgrade, a huge negative for it and all clan mechs), and 2 fixed DHS, will have 27 slots and 20 tons for pods and armor.
Compared to it a Firestarter (30 tons as well) with XL 180 (which it can upgrade, a HUGE advantage for it and all IS mechs), 2DHS, FF, and Endo(it doesn't need FF), will have 25! tons and 9 slots.
So on slots, engine, and free tonnage alone the Kitfox is:
Free Tonnage: KFX at 20, FS-9 at 25 (FS wins)
Engine: KFX at 180 (doesn't have a choice), FS9 variable, could go either way, the advantage is more for the FS simply due to customization.
Slots: KFX at 27, FS9 at 9. KFX takes it, barely.
Now on to important factors such as hardpoints. As it stands the FS9 has more hardpoints, allowing fora versatile set up, that doesn't need to be pod dependant. It can mount energy weapons (and ballistics for 2 of them) almost anywhere, (ballistics have to be in STs, but that's it). The FS9 can move faster, while carrying a full armament of weapons that made people cry OP, and while being completely independent of ammo issues. Which the KFX suffers from. A lot of the free slots have to go to ammo, while still using 5 tons less than the FS9. That's ofcourse if they are running similar engines. An advantage which I forced on the FS9 here. Not to mention that those 9 slots are all the FS9 needs to run a full (or almost full) compliment of MLs.
Then we have to worry about hitboxes. KFX is very squat, and so it is extremely wide for a light mech, making it very easy to hit. In addition it moves at only 106 with speed tweak means it can be chased down by most mediums, and some heavies. While in comparison the FS9 is slimmer both from the side and from the front, and can move at a freightening 150Kph. Making it an all around harder target to hit.
The third concern is the inflexibility of the slots, this isn't with just the KFX, this is across the board for ALL clan mechs. Structure slots, and some pieces of equipment are fixed and do not move around, unlike IS.

---

Many of the points being made here carry over across the board, especially things like engine restriction, hitboxes, and fixed equipment/slots

---

Adder

Spoiler

Adder (35 tons): Completely stripped with XL210, 2DHS, Endo, FF, and the fixed flamer 22 free tons, 28 free slots)
Comparing it to a Jenner (35 tons): completely stripped with XL 210, 2DHS, Endo, and FF, 22.5 free tons. (You can slap an ammo-less AMS in there to compensate for the half ton that the jenner doesn't need to waste)
Keep in mind:
Jenner has 4-6 hardpoints across it's variants, mainly energy, so not ammo reliant (except for the Oxide which is too specific a case to be considered), doesn't need to mount the XL 210 as it can mount a full complement that is comeptitive in today's meta with a max XL engine.
So in this case
Free Tonnage: Jenner at 22.5, Adder at 22 (mild advantage to the jenner)
Engine: ADR fixed, JR7 variable (goes to the JR7)
Slots : ADR at 28, JR7 at 11 (goes to the ADR)
This is at best a tie, and at worst an advantage for the Jenner.
The ADR suffesrs from a bad profile as well, what with it being even wider than the Jenner, and the CT hitboxes leaves much to be desired, which is saying something, since the Jenner is almost entirely CT.
This is of course, before throwing out the RVN, which is ANOTHER 35 tonner light the IS have, and is also one of the top 3 best lights out there.

Nova

Spoiler

This one was a bit trickier because we have 3x50 ton IS mediums to compete against it. I will list some bullet point attributes for each one when compared against the NVA for each one
Nova (50 tons): Stripped, with only XL250, 4DHS, standard structure and armor, and 5 JJs (aside from the engine, the 4DHS and 5 hardwired JJs are already a problem, 2 JJs is more than enough, as this mech is losing a total of 1.5-2.5 tons just on JJs alone. Before counting DHS). Has 26 free tons, and 34 free slots
CN9: with XL 250, and 4DHS (can't mount JJs) has 28.5 free tons and 30 slots (thank the 2slot DHS for that one).
HBK: 28.5 free tons, and 29 slots
TBT: 28.5 free tons, and 30 slots (the 3C, 5M, and LPG come with Endo steel for extra free tonnage, and the 5J, 7M, and LRG can mount JJs to end up at 26 tons)
So for these mechs:
Free tonnage: Goes to most of the IS mechs that don't mount JJs, and is a tie for the ones that do, IF they choose to mount the obscene 5 (which they can just NOT do, 2 is more than enough giving them a 1.5 ton lead)
Engine: NVA has a 250 XL that functions almost like a standard engine, most of the mediums don't need that engine, however, and perform greatly without it. It is actually a tie though, as an improved engine can be an advantage in some cases.
Free Slots: The NVA has 6 more free slots than most IS mediums. The Advantage goes out to the NVA here. (The restricted structure slots are still a good check for it)
Now let's start with the biggest elephant in the room: The engine. Not a single one of those IS mediums need to run THAT big of an engine. Most of them will do phoenominally well with a STD 200. They can also upgrade their structure to Endo steel to free up a LOT more weight compared to the NVA, and even though a lot of them can't mount 12 energy hardpoints, with Ghost heat restrictions the NVA will be firing almost equally to a HBK-4P.
All of them retain good hardpoints in the torsos, unlike the NVA where only the B and S can (traditionally mounted with MGs, due to fixed slots making it difficult to use the hardpoints for anything else efficiently)
Then we have to get to durability. The NVA CT sticks out too much compared to any of them. The centurion is infamous for being one of the tankiest mechs in the entire game. Comparable even to an Atlas, even though it can't mount the same amount of armor. Simply because the hitboxes are THAT good. The Nova's squat and wide profile serves it really well, IF it doesn't jump, meaning the 2.5 tons in JJs aren't as useful on it, as they would be on say a shadowhawk with high mounted ballistics and energy (in the case of K) for efficient poptarting.
Then of course, the fixed JJs, 5 of them to be exact. At te very least 3 of them are unnecessary. However, the NVA has to deal with that, PLUS the heat generated from having 5 JJs (which is going to be implemented very soon if I'm not mistaken).
Bear in mind, I am not saying the JJs are a disadvantage, I'm saying that 5 of them is a disadvantage. The mechs without them, can bring more tonnage into the foray in terms of weapons, and those with JJs can bring just as much. (thus mitigating if not completely balancing the weight and slot saving attribute of the clan weaponry)

---

At this point I would like to bring up the fact the not a single Clan mech can runa zombie build, while almost EVERY IS mech can do so. Another thing to keep in mind.

---

Stormcrow

Spoiler

This one also had several contenders: Griffin, Kintaro, Wolverine, and the Shadowhawk (widely considered the best medium mech out there).
Stormcrow (55 tons): Completely stripped, with XL 330 (an engine it doesn't really need), Endo, and FF. Has 32.5 free tons, and 33 free slots.
GRF: 32.5 tons and 13 free slots (mounts JJs)
KTO: 32.5 tons, 13 slots
SHD:32.5 tons, 13 slots(mounts JJs)
WVR: 32.5 tons, 13 slots(mounts JJs)
For these mechs in terms of engine, free tonnage, and slots:
Free Tonnage: SCR 32.5, all of the others bring either 32.5 or 31 tons (if they wanted to mount JJs)
Engine: fixed for SCR, while the others can upgrade, in fact, most of them runa full compliment of weapons while running around in XL 350+ (like the Kintaro which can replace the SCR-D variant completely, while running energy + SSRMs, and moving faster. Flat out superior to the SCR-D)
Slots: SCR at 33, the others at 13 (again, if forced to run the same upgrades, and engines, which almost none of them need/do)
This is another scenario where it is at best a tie, and at worst a win for the IS mechs.
We then have to move on to hitboxes here, where IS mechs again have the advantage, in terms of slimmer hitboxes. While the SCR has one of the larges arm hitboxes in the game, and it's a medium. The CT hitbox is actually okay on the SCR, not as bad as the ADR, NVA, TBR, DWF, or WHK
Then there is the problem of speed. Most of the 55 tonner mediums are either going to be running larger XL engines (KTOs, GRFs, WVRs, some variations of the SHD) with JJs, or smaller STD engines, with bigger guns. As mentioned earlier, one of the KTOs flat out replaces and surpasses the SCR in terms of pay load and speed. The SCR will have more ammo, but the KTO will have enrgy weapons that can engage outside the range of missiles (unless the SCR runs LRMs, then the GRF and WVR can match if not surpass it), again with the added mobility of 1 or 2 JJs for all but the KTO.

---

POINT ALPHA:
Basically, to put in short, the argument, about clan superiority: Clan mechs are superior to IS mechs IF you run the IS mechs in one extremely particular way. This point permeates the argument completely, and most people can't steer away from it, refusing to accept variability in construction. Basically all of these comparisons have the main flaw of restricting IS tech. An example would be me saying the LCT-1V is better than the JR7-F if you put an XL 190 in the JR7-F and one ML.

---

Summoner

Spoiler

Summoner (70 tons): completely stripped, with XL 350, 4DHS, Standard structure, FF, and 5JJs (another handicap) ( I won't debate the hardpoint issue as you already covered that)
32 free tons, and 35 slots.
Compared to the CTF (70 tons): completely stripped with XL 350, 4DHS, STD structure, FF and JJs where applicable. (Not a single one can mount above XL 340, and the 4X only goes up to 255)
34.5 free tons, 21 free slots
Free Tonnage: SMN 32, CTF 34.5 on JJ variants (with 4, none of them need more than 2), and 38.5 on those that don't have JJs. Goes to the IS
Engine: Fixed XL 350 (more than it will ever need), versus variable. Goes to the IS. Especially considering the biggest engine the CTF mounts is a 340, and it never needed to run more than a 300 to be one of the top, most competitive, mechs out there.
Free Slots: SMN at 35, CTF at 21 (26 for non JJ variants). Goes to Clan
First let's sart with the JJs, 5! hardwired, non-removable JJs, each taking up a full ton and a slot. That's another case of too many JJs for the mech, it doesn't need them, and doesn't need the weight, slot, and heat cost from them. Followed by the mediocre weight saving of FF armor instead of Endo steel. Add to that the fixed XL 350 engine, which is it's only saving grace, as it gives it somewhat above average mobility compared to the Cataphract.
That mobility advantage from the JJs, and the engine is mitigated by the CT hitbox of the summoner (equivalent to that of the SCR, if not a bit worse. Again, nowhere near as bad the ones previously listed), and the mediocre firepower it brings.
This is one case where the advantage goes to the IS, with little resistance from clan tech.

Timberwolf

Spoiler

The point of contention, the one mech that is supposed to be good, is good, and is also overrated at the same time. Causing many players to scream OP, and P2W.
Timberwolf(75 tons): completely stripped with XL 375, 5DHS, Endo, and FF
39.5 tons, and 33 slots
Compared to the underrated Orion (75 tons):Completely stripped with XL 360(can't mount 375), Endo, FF, and 5 DHS
42.5 tons, and 12 slots
Free tonnage: TBR at 39.5, ON1 at 42.5. Goes to IS.
Engine: TBR with XL 375, a very good engine, and most agree, is beyond what it needs to run good loadouts. ON1, a max of 360, and the mech never needed more than a 300 to run it's powerful set ups. This one is a tie
Slots: TBR at 33, ON1 at 12. This one goes to the TBR
This scenario is a tie as far as those three stats are considered.
First the hitboxes issue should be brought out. While the ON1 enjoys a slim CT,and hard to hit shoulders allowing it to run most engine configurations with little risk, and enjoy effective torso twisting to spread damage, the TBR suffers from one of the worst CT hitboxes in the game. Even the Dragon enjoy s a friendlier CT hitbox, and the TBR's is on parr with that of the DWF, making torso twisitng more difficult to use properly, and the TBR has the exact same range of motion with the torso as the Orion.
Adding to that is the fact that the Orion's arms can actually shield the torso, while the TBR arms do not shield the torso as good as the Orion's arms do.
The next point is the hardpoint distribution. The T-Wolf has an equal number if not more(with the riskier configurations), compared to the Orion. So it can bring just as much firepower, if not more in some cases, to bear on a target. (mitigated by the DoT mechanic of clan weapons -more on that point in the weapons discussion-)
Then comes the engine set up. The T-Wolf has a very good XL 375, giving it great mobility. However, the Orion as a heavy, does not (much like the cataphract) need to mount an engine that massive, while bringing just as much firepower as the TBR (in fact more efficient if you use an AC 20 set up)
If the T-wolf wants a real advantage it would equip JJs, for mobility, and that comes with the risk of increased cycle times, more tonnage lost versus the Orion, and extra heat damage.
In this case, the result is pretty much a tie. Or as close to one as possible. Fixed JJs (3 perhaps, so it's not sacrificing too much weight, and heat) might bring the TBR more in line with other heavies, though.

Warhawk

Spoiler

Warhawk(85 tons): Completely stripped with XL340, 20DHS (way more than most assault mechs use), and FF.
46 free tons, 26 free slots
Compared to the BLR, and STK chassis
BLR: Completely stripped, with XL 340, 20DHS, and FF
46 tons, and 6 slots
STK: completely stripped, with XL 310 (cannot mount above 310), 20 DHS, and FF
49 tons, and 7 slots
For these stats:
Free Tonnage: WHK at 46 tons, BLR at 46 (tie), STK at 49(win). Goes to IS
Engine: Fixed versus variable, goes mostly to the IS, though in this case the WHK can mount the big engine with okay firepower, and I'd put it closer to a tie.
Slots: WHK 26, BLR 6, STK 7. Goes to Clan
This scenario is close to a tie. However, I should note that WHK will be moving on average, faster, and more nimbly than either the BLR or the STK. While brining more DHS as well. However, the DHS benefit is mititgated by the high heat on Clan weapons. The engine offers a decent enough advantage that it tied with the IS variable engine set ups. In summary, unless the IS BLR pilot brings an XL 340 (with exactly 20DHS) into the fight, they should have a fair chance if not an advantage compared to the WHK. In the case of STK that is not an option, and even with the 310 engine restriction, the STK is equal if not better.
The durability of IS STD engines and having them be mounted on the STK chassis without sacrificing firepower already puts the STK at an advantage. The WHK is going to be more nimble, and somewhat faster (a mere 6 Kph I think). The WHK has a 5degree advantage in torso twisting over the STK, mitigated by the large CT hitbox. While the STK has the advantage of larger ST hitboxes, allowing for better torso twisting (though that 5 degree difference might even it out)

Direwolf

Spoiler

This guys has caused many cries of OP, borked, and broken, on the forums. Usually from the people that decided running face first at it is a good idea. It carries the exact same tonnage as an atlas with a similar engine. It has more hardpoints though, coupled with it being new, causes peoples' brains to shut down when they see the number of weapons on it. Hence the cries of OP.
Direwolf(100 tons):Completely stripped with Xl300, 15DHS, STD structure, STD armor
69.5 tons, 41 slots
Compared to the Atlas (100 tons): Compeltely stripped, with XL 300, 15DHS, STD structure, and STD armor.
69.5 tons, 41 slots.
Let's begin:
Free Tonnage: DWF at 69.5 tons, AS7 at 69.5(tie)
Engine: DWF at XL 300, AS7 variable engine with a clear advantage in this case. (goes to IS)
Free Slots: DWF at 41, AS7 at 41 (tie)
So far the IS Atlas seems to be in the lead.
Now to consider the other elements. The DWF has more hardpoints than the AS7, pure and simple. Coupled with the weight and slot saving of clan tech means it can bring more firepower than an atlas trying to run the same set up. However, that is paid for in 3 fold:
1- The Atlas is significantly more nimble than the Direwolf, even when running a similar engine, the Atlas maintains the use of arms. While the DWF's arms have no actuators to make them move as well.
2- The DWF suffers from a MASSIVE CT hitbox. By massive I mean XBAWX HUEG. Possibly the largest CT hitbox in the game, and you have to work hard to miss hitting it.
3- The pods for the arms come with added restrictions if running energy weapons on them, as they increase cycle times, meaning energy weaopns fire less frequently, while the torso pods that mount weapons penalize the mech with reduced torso twist range and speed. On top of it's abysmal rates as is.
I would count the ECM for the Atlas but that is only on the DDC, which is too specific a scenario to use.
The DWF in the end holds the advantage in hardpoints, but pays for it with increased cycle times, extra heat (if you run big guns you won't have room for DHS), and reduced mobility. If the DWF brings the same weapons set up as the Atlas to avoid the penalties, the Atlas still has the advantage of being faster, and having a significantly friendlier CT hitbox.
The Atlas has more working for it than the Direwolf. Which in this case means the Atlas has a lead. However, it's marginal enough to call it a tie.

---

At this point I would like to also remind everyone that most clan mech set ups will be lacking in AMS, as only a few specific pods can mount it per chassis, sometimes those pods mount NOTHING but that 1 AMS. While all IS mechs have access to AMS at will.
Note: The KFX right arm-C comes with it's own set of handicaps, but again, that is too specific a scenario to focus on, unless you want to?

---

[this entire section leads back to point Alpha]

Weapons

Spoiler

Energy weapons

Spoiler

Energy weapons across the board are close to balanced. There is a trade off of heat for damage, however, there are a couple of tweaks that need to be done to both them, and IS lasers, to make them more in line with what they are supposed to do, and how they should perform.
First off, I personally think the range on the C-ERLL could use some reduction.
Second, IS ML needs it's heat brought back down to 3, instead of 4, IS SL needs it's heat brought back down to 2 instead of 3. While C-ERSL needs it's heat to either remain the same or increase by 1 point in contrast to IS SL.
Other than that, the long firing time, plus cycle time, coupled with actual heat, plus ghost heat existing on all clan weapons does lend the whole set up some balance.
Not to mention the lack of a clan PPC equivalent. Clan mechs get an ERPPC that deals 10 damage (plus 2.5-5 splashed) for 15 heat. That in itself puts the PPC argument close to finished. yes it's a total of 15, but we're bringing a cone of fire (effectively) weapon, into a pinpoint fight. If the same thing happened with IS ACs the entire player base would rise in uproar.

Missiles

Spoiler

Of all the clan missile weapons, only the SRMs can be consiederd really good.
Let's start from the top, with the LRMs:
1- Ripple fire makes them almost twice as vulnerable for AMS (which effectively all IS mechs can mount)
2- C-LRMs spread more than IS LRMs.
3- Clan missiles fly at the same velocity while being in ripple fire mode, and actually the clan LRMs have a lower impulse than IS LRMs.
basically the trade off for being lighter is losing damage (AMS is more effective) and impulse. Mechs have a better chance of avoiding clan LRMs than IS LRMs because of the IS blob effect. In fact if you see a mech running 2 AMS or 3 (in the case of the kitfox), either bring IS LRMs or don't bother firing Clan LRMs.
Streak SRMs:
Clan SSRMs weight half a ton less than their IS counterpart. However, they pay for that with reduced missile speed, and egrigious cycle times. (the SSRM 6 has almost double the cycle time of an LRM 20, a weapon that deals 10 damage more than it at longer ranges). They do benefit from increased range though (360 vs. 270). However, they risk losing more missiles if fired close to max range, simply because coupled with the reduced speed, AMS does have more time to shoot down some of them.
In this case, what it really boils down to isn't the weapons themselves, but how many can be brought into the fight on one mech. The weapons as they stand are somewhat balanced, the IS get SSRM2s that fire as fast as clan SSRM2s but with faster missile velocity, while the clan get the bigger SSRM launchers at the cost of ghost heat, and increased cycle times that put the mech out of comission longe enough for people to drill a hole through it with a spoon.
SRMs:
Both IS and Clan have SRM2, SRM4, and SRM6.
Clan SRMs weight half a ton less, take a slot less (for SRM6), and have 0.08 more impulse.
However, that comes at the cost of reduced damage. IS SRMs will deal more damage, while operating at the same ranges, and same heat and ghost heat penalties.
In this case the trade off is between a lighter weapon, or one that deals more damage.
I think IS SRMs could use a buff in making their missiles each deal 2.3 or 2.4 damage instead of 2.15. However, that would give a big advantage in terms of trading. The IS weapons aresnal is already loaded with weapons that fighter in shorter bursts, and a whole lot of PP FLD.

Ballistics

Spoiler

Ok, lets' start with the fact that Clan ACs are sub-par compared to IS ACs. Oh yeah. They weigh less, they take less space, and they generate more heat because they all have ghost heat. Every single ballistic clan weapon that isn't Guass or an LB weapon has ghost heat. Whereas the IS ACs only have ghost heat on the AC2, and AC 20.
Even clan ACs (not ultras) generate more ghost heat than IS ACs with ghost heat (for example C-AC20 generates 26.40 heat when 2 are fired, compared to IS AC20 generating 23.52 when 2 are fired. AC10s, 5s, 2s, UAC2s, 5s, 10s, and 20s, all have Ghost heat.
Now let's move on to the biggest reason for why IS ballistics are at best balanced against Clan ballistics, and at worst, flat out superior to them: Firing modes.
IS ballistics fire one slug, if it hits, it deals the full damage (in the case of my Orion a whopping 20 points of it) to that one location. No other weapon in the game can deal that much damage to one location, in one second. Only the Gauss comes lose.
Clan ballistics fire in a stream, and if using ACs, instead of UACs, you also lose a slot. Regardless of the weight and slot saving, the mere fact that best a clan ballistic will deal about 25% of it's damage (possibly 50% for a UAC 2) to one location compated to an IS ballistic that will deal the full damage, means that clan ballistics are sub-optimal.
What keeps them in the game is the fact that burst fire allows the player to adjust aim mid burst, and hopefuly land partial damage from what would have been a wasted salvo.
If both players have the exact same aiming skill, and both face off against the same target, the IS ballistic mech will get the kill first.Simply because PP FLD gives that advantage. It also means that the IS mech gets to torso twist earlier than the clan mech, allowing it to spread return fire across multiple sections, while the clan mech will end up staring down opponents it doesn't want to stare down for more than 1 second.

Yeah, except for the one about that 50 percent damage no being applied where it's aimed, plus the possibility (the very likely one too) of losing 50% of that damage increase when hitting an arm.

Both IS and Clan mechs have access to these same efficiencies, meaning at the end of the day, that 10% reduction is still a 10% reduction.
Torso twist rate is torso twist speed, by the way.

The summoner, T-Wolf, Stormcrow, Adder, Kitfox, Direwolf, and the Nova, mount engines that they should get out of. All of them should use different engines. In fact, if they would let me. I would upgrade the T-Wolf engine up, if possible. If not. I would drop it down to a 325 in a heartbeat. Same with the other mechs (especially with the summoner. I would downgrade that engine FAST). All of the others would perform significantly better with bigger engines.
The survivability is better than that of an IS XL, but still weaker than that of an IS STD. Which no clan mechs can mount. I would not mind slapping a STD 350 in my DWF, if I could. That would immediately give me something to do with the A variant.
The Masakari and the T-Wolf have good engines. However, as mentioned above. Only the Masakari is fine with it's current engine. The others would improve quite significantly if allowed to drop down (in the case of the T-Wolf and summoner.) or upgrade (in the case of the others.)

He's (IS) I won't hold that against him because he is will to take responsibility for his own actions. This is the type of pilot that should be feared by the clan pilots. He understands his strengths and our weaknesses, he will do well on the battlefield.

http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry3759585

As you can see this is the only (IS) that has earned my respect..salute.. die well my friend

[IraqiWalker]

mongo2006, on 25 September 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

He's (IS) I won't hold that against him because he is will to take responsibility for his own actions. This is the type of pilot that should be feared by the clan pilots. He understands his strengths and our weaknesses, he will do well on the battlefield.

http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry3759585

As you can see this is the only (IS) that has earned my respect..salute.. die well my friend

Die well? No my friend, them green chickens, red dogs, and spider bears are gonna die well. With an AC 20 right into their CTs, and cockpits. We didn't go through 4 succession wars, several re-enactments of WWII on steroids, just to die well against some designer babies with a spirit animal thing.

Kill well.

[mongo2006]

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Die well? No my friend, them green chickens, red dogs, and spider bears are gonna die well. With an AC 20 right into their CTs, and cockpits. We didn't go through 4 succession wars, several re-enactments of WWII on steroids, just to die well against some designer babies with a spirit animal thing.

Kill well.

We'll see, I fry chicken very well. But for some reason I'm thinking, if I do see you in a fight, I'll be going the other way.

[Kin3ticX]

Daneiel, on 25 September 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Are you sure ???? What about the clan lights - i don't care for the heavies or the assaults - and Adder is stuck with 210 xl if the player loose its ST he will go even slower , but the super hero firestarter can use the same engine that he own already for his raven without any additional cost , on how many mechs you can use the same engine without any additional cost ???? - See my point you complaining about the clans , but you totally ignore IS benefits in the game .You call for the lore rules , but only for the clan mechs , when i ask you the lore rules to be added for the IS too , you backed off and saying that i am insane - for me your acting very hypocritical in that case - call for enforcing all of the lore rules or non that is .

The Clans as a whole are overpowered. Yet not every Clan-mech would be considered Tier-1 competitive. The Nova doesn't have the best hitboxes and knuckle drags pretty bad + limited pod space + 5 hardlocked JJs + no endo/ferro. Still, it would probably be considered the best 50 tonner just because you can put clantech on it.

Bottom line:

12 Clan 'Mechs generate higher aggregate force multipliers than 12 Inner Sphere 'Mechs. Proof in the pudding is the stats PGI has been releasing. ~90% down to ~73%. (which is still a crazy huge advantage)

Russ has said they are going in and ranking all mechs tier 1-5 and lower tier mechs will get better quirks. I am sure the Kitfox/Puma will get something but they were always meant to be heavily armed light mechs before speed. That will never change.

I seem to do alright with a Kitfox but it doesn't do the same job as a Jenner nor do I expect it to.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 25 September 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

The Clans as a whole are overpowered. Yet not every Clan-mech would be considered Tier-1 competitive. The Nova doesn't have the best hitboxes and knuckle drags pretty bad + limited pod space + 5 hardlocked JJs + no endo/ferro. Still, it would probably be considered the best 50 tonner just because you can put clantech on it.

Bottom line:

12 Clan 'Mechs generate higher aggregate force multipliers than 12 Inner Sphere 'Mechs. Proof in the pudding is the stats PGI has been releasing. ~90% down to ~73%. (which is still a crazy huge advantage)

Russ has said they are going in and ranking all mechs tier 1-5 and lower tier mechs will get better quirks. I am sure the Kitfox/Puma will get something but they were always meant to be heavily armed light mechs before speed. That will never change.

I seem to do alright with a Kitfox but it doesn't do the same job as a Jenner nor do I expect it to.

I don't put much stock into the tests PGI has been doing, but I think that clan tech needs some tweaking. No big nerfs or anything.

In all honesty, the quirk system introduced a great way to start balancing each chassis on it's own. Which would help deal with the fact that out of all the clan mechs, only 1 (T-wolf, I honestly see no problems with the DWF) seems to cause some problems. Just tweaking it's own pods around a bit can help mitigate a lot of the whine storms out here.

Most of the clan mechs feel fine to me. The SCR is one of the stronger Mediums (possibly the strongest non-JJ medium), but it's still a medium mech, with medium mech problems. Gets legged too easily, has wonky hitboxes, and should always be a second line mech.

The Nova practically balances itself out inherently, and the last round of heat nerfs have put it somewhere between Locust, and Dragon territory.

The Summoner, Kitfox, and Adder are all fine, and may in fact need some help.

The Warhawk is performing the way it should. Yes, it's not the bestest, and may fall short sometimes when compared to the DWF, but that doesn't mean it's bad, or a in a bad place.

I can't speak for the Wave II mechs, but they seem like a balanced bunch. I expect some issues might arise from the loki, being the first heavy with ECM, and all, but none of the others stand out as game breakers. The Koshi (Mist Lynx) is looking to be the disappointing one of the bunch. Light mech that moves fast, but still slower than most mediums, and even though it has ECM, it should still be handled like a Kitfox, worse yet, it has no torso hardpoints at all. It's literally disarmed by having it's arms removed (24 HP max, with full armor on the arm, even a Locust is a genuine threat to these guys).

The Fenris (Ice Ferret) is looking like a good medium, and I expect it to be a good fast striker. High speed will help it a lot. The problem for it is the same for the Koshi. Arm weapons mainly. Meaning you can't use shield arms effectively, since all your guns are there (only 2 CT pods, and 1 ST pod have hardpoints on them)

The Man O'War (Gargoyle) is going to be the clans' version of the Awesome. Moves really fast, and is energy heavy. It can have a very wide range with loadouts, but in all honesty it seems better suited for the energy+SRM heavy brawls the Awesome can pull off. With it's high speed it can't spare much tonnage/slots for big ballistics.

The Vulture (Mad Dog) is a nice heavy, but it's a glorified Catapult, with a stalker-like hitbox for the STs. Very mobile, will be running a lot of splat configs (6xSRM6s), and decent ballistics and energy loadouts (gonna be definitely heavy on energy).

As stated earlier, of all the bunch, the Loki seems like the only possible problem mech, mainly due to ECM. Then again, it's expected to have either summoner-like hitboxes, or Dragon-like hitboxes. The CT is gonna protrude forward a bit, but I honestly hope it won't be like the Dragon CT.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 25 September 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[n r g]

stjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

play skill. better players want tend to spend more money, correlation does not equal causation.

so the better players buy clan mechs. they would still **** you with IS mechs.

stay away from my kill peasant.

[Kin3ticX]

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I don't put much stock into the tests PGI has been doing, but I think that clan tech needs some tweaking. No big nerfs or anything.

268 drops is a pretty good sample size. That means clan won 196 and IS won 72. Gee, community warfare is gonna be a ****'n blast. Put any stock in that?

[Mcgral18]

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

268 drops is a pretty good sample size. That means clan won 196 and IS won 72. Gee, community warfare is gonna be a ****'n blast. Put any stock in that?

Organized 12 man attacking a potentially not organized group of 12 comprised of smaller groups? I think the 12 man will win no matter IS or Clan.

Organized 12 VS 12? Depends on who focuses better.

I wonder what sort of advantage the defenders will have.

[Kin3ticX]

E N E R G Y, on 25 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

play skill. better players want tend to spend more money, correlation does not equal causation.

so the better players buy clan mechs. they would still **** you with IS mechs.

stay away from my kill peasant.

I dunno man, I have seen some really bad builds stomping around in premium Clan mechs too, particularly in TBs and DWs. However, I do agree that many of the crem le crem players have been pretty Clan exclusive since invasion. With that said, PGI has stated that the ELO delta in the solo queue is the best they have.

[Kin3ticX]

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Organized 12 man attacking a potentially not organized group of 12 comprised of smaller groups? I think the 12 man will win no matter IS or Clan.

Organized 12 VS 12? Depends on who focuses better.

I wonder what sort of advantage the defenders will have.

The last test was done in the solo queue.