90 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

I completely agree that jumpjets feel... pretty underwhelming these days. The five hard mounted jets on my relatively light Nova can barely get me into the citadel from the river on River City, or on top of a canyon in Canyon.

That said, PGI needs to be very careful about jumpjet balancing. For the first time in over a year, you'll see mechs without jumpjets on the field and not scoff at the pilot for playing a bad noob mech. There are actually Atlases again. Before the jumpjet nerf, which mechs were good? The Jenner, Shadowhawk, Cataphract, Victor, and Highlander. The one thing they all have in common? Jumpjets. Even when poptarting was nerfed, the added mobility that jumpjets give for such a low cost made them incredibly powerful for a very modest investment. Why play a Raven when the Jenner does the same thing but goes up cliffs? Why play a Centurion when the Shawk is the same thing but can peek over ridges? Why play an Awesome when the Victor gives you the same package but with a much tighter turning radius thanks to jets?

I don't have a good answer for how to balance jumpjets; all I can say is that they feel terrible right now. I'm just not sure that I'd trade JJs feeling good on some mechs again for being back in the same crummy spot where every mech without jets is junk.

FupDup, on 22 September 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

They should take notes from MWLL's jets:

Obviously, we don't need to copy the exact values to the letter...but the overall idea is the same. Jets that give you a quick, powerful boost that keeps you exposed in the air for a brief time. And, with the ability to cover horizontal distance rather than just vertical.

Easier to balance against poptarts because they'd have a harder time timing their jumps to avoid exposure (would be easy to "overshoot" the jump) and thus they'd be more vulnerable. It also would be a completely BADASS repositioning tool for brawlers/flankers, or for people trying to retreat from those mechs. And, most importantly of all, they'd make you feel AWESOME while you were using them.

The one thing you're forgetting to mention is that MWLL is stock-only, and stock mechs that come with jumpjets tended to make sacrifices in other areas; they were designed to be inferior to land-only mechs in firepower, armor, etc by FASA for the boardgame to make up for their jump capabilities, and that translates to MWLL because there's no customization.

MWO has no such restrictions; I can see unlocking jets as good as those on fully customized mechs being a nightmare. Why would you ever play anything else?

[Steele Rein]

Completely agree. I've removed them from my heavies and assaults in favor of more/better weapons. Lights are OK...Mediums are underpowered but at least still have some utility depending on the loadout. But they're definitely not fun any more.

And for the record, I tried pop-tarting a couple times and hated it. I used them for mobility and especially taking advantage of certain mechs limits on torso inclines to attack from above. That's virtually impossible now except in a light.

[Glythe]

Viktor Drake, on 22 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

I am still confused why there was such a drastic change. No one was complaining about anything except the fact that only 1-2 JJs were too useful.

It makes sense that more jets= more thrust. Mechs like the Jenner & catapult gained WAY too much for only 1 jump jet.

There is a real easy way to bring back Jump Jets from suckland (where they are right now).

Change the Gauss/PPC mechanic so that if you fire either then you instantly shutdown in mid-air. Make this be a shutdown that you cannot escape using override.

Implement a harsh landing for falling like this.... let's say 20% leg damage each time (from full health). So if you do this 5 times then you break both legs. If for some reason you lost one leg early the last time you try this you'll take 40% jump damage on one leg (which should be game over).


The shake mechanic was put in to counter Gauss/ppc poptarting. There needs to be a hard stop to prevent that tactic as it broke the game.


Jump jets have never given enough thrust and you fall too fast. But they are still good to have (needs revisiting on the summoner big time).

Edited by Glythe, 23 September 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I like the idea of a Fuel-Cell approach.
Hitting the Jumpjets opens 1 cell, and each JJ equipped acts as a fuel cell.

You hit jump, you're in for a ride for however much fuel is assigned to each jumpjet.
Poptarting and bunnyhopping go bye bye for the most part, because Jetting is no longer such an easily controlled event.

Thrust and height caps can go back to reasonable levels, no more Blimpjets.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

All they needed to do was stop sniping with jump jets.

No one really complained about brawling with them.

It was always about the PPFLD + Jump Jets.

But nope, can't do that properly.

[Mechteric]

aniviron, on 23 September 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

The one thing you're forgetting to mention is that MWLL is stock-only, and stock mechs that come with jumpjets tended to make sacrifices in other areas; they were designed to be inferior to land-only mechs in firepower, armor, etc by FASA for the boardgame to make up for their jump capabilities, and that translates to MWLL because there's no customization.

MWO has no such restrictions; I can see unlocking jets as good as those on fully customized mechs being a nightmare. Why would you ever play anything else?

One thing you forgot is they did at one point have a major problem with poptarts. It was when the NovaCat was first released I believe, jump jets with an array of ER PPCs if I recall. Also Mad Cat Mk2's with dual gauss with jets I believe were present at the time.

They all but vanished when they introduced proper amounts of jump jet shake (which mind you when combined with very fast jetting is much different and more effective against poptarting than MWO's slow jetting with shake).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 23 September 2014 - 04:07 PM.

[beartraps]

Same olde Bugs the excuses are just new and updated

[Creovex]

After watching the Living Legends videos... I am GLAD PGI didn't turn this into Fly Circus Mechville... When I think of JJs I look to the intros of the old games....

MechWarrior 2 Ghost Bear's Legacy intro: http://youtu.be/KPlXXUhtVqc

MechWarrior 2 Intro: http://youtu.be/-X3GD0UnBCk

That in my opinion is the ONLY way mechs should ever jump... these are not elementals, these are mechs with weight so that sky jump crap is out.

I love the way the Summoner jumps in the first one... shake and height looks higher than what we have.

Edited by Creovex, 23 September 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

The proof is in the pudding. Just look at how many people are scrapping JJ's in favour of moar guns.

Light mechs need the ability to jump and fire, otherwise there won't be any point to bringing more than 1-2 jump jets. Light mech poptarts were never a problem in this game. Yeah, PPC Spiders can be annoying, but they're almost never going to turn a battle. They're just a nuisance. Bring back the ninja light mechs that can actually jump around assault mechs without getting legged in five seconds flat.

Medium mechs are always about mobility. Their speed allows them to fight with the light mechs or the assault mechs as needed. They need lots of jump jet mobility, coupled with enough screenshake to stop everyone from just dropping in Shadow Hawk Poptarts. The job of the medium mech is to fill in the gaps and support weak points in a team's formation. So their jump jets should help them accomplish that job. Role warfare.

Heavy mechs and assault mechs are there to do damage. Poptarting should be very difficult to do right with these mechs. Jump jets should only be there to help them climb cliffs and walls to save them a 2 minute detour to the nearest ramp. At the same time, if you're going to allow an assault mech to equip 6 jump jets, please make it a viable option. Give people a reason to equip more than 1 or 2 jump jets on their assault mechs.


And also what FupDup said.

[aniviron]

CapperDeluxe, on 23 September 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

One thing you forgot is they did at one point have a major problem with poptarts. It was when the NovaCat was first released I believe, jump jets with an array of ER PPCs if I recall. Also Mad Cat Mk2's with dual gauss with jets I believe were present at the time.

They all but vanished when they introduced proper amounts of jump jet shake (which mind you when combined with very fast jetting is much different and more effective against poptarting than MWO's slow jetting with shake).

I never said there were no poptarts in MWLL. In fact, the segment of the post that you quoted doesn't mention poptarting even once, and I'm not unduly worried about poptarting, in fact.

What does worry me is this: giving mechs with jumpjets the ability to cover 50-100m in a quick leap, effectively moving from cover to cover while being exposed to fire for almost no time combined with the ability to hop over very tall obstacles effectively makes land-based mechs obsolete.

MWLL deals with this problem both by having mechs with jets have drawbacks, like in tabletop, and having them cost more, again, just like BV in tabletop. In MWO, however, neither of these things exist to balance a chassis that has jumpjets vs one that does not.

[Creovex]

Mister D, on 23 September 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

I like the idea of a Fuel-Cell approach.
Hitting the Jumpjets opens 1 cell, and each JJ equipped acts as a fuel cell.

You hit jump, you're in for a ride for however much fuel is assigned to each jumpjet.
Poptarting and bunnyhopping go bye bye for the most part, because Jetting is no longer such an easily controlled event.

Thrust and height caps can go back to reasonable levels, no more Blimpjets.

Negative... I use JJs for controlled falls in my lights. Your approach removes the concept of controlled falls.... so I say pass on that.

[carl kerensky]

Ultimatum X, on 23 September 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Step 1) Revisit Terrain code so life is not awful for non-JJ mechs.
Step 2) Revisit JJs so they actually provide thrust and mobility benefits.
Step 3) Institute "reticule sway" when falling. Grant positive & negative quirks to mechs to increase or reduce sway creating niches.

Revisiting the terrain code is of ultimate importance if your ever going get JJ rights. As it stands the mechs interaction with the terrain is abysmal. Needs to be top priority.

[DukeDublin]

Just tried out 7 jumpjets on a Wolverine. I could barely clear a low building on Frozen City.

What has PGI done?

[Rhent]

As long as its functionally impossible for heavy or assault mech to poptart and aim fire, then the devs can do whatever they want to JJ's. The JJ nerf fixed the nightmare that was Poptarting that was just as bad if not worse than the 4 or 6 PPC stalker, splatcat or 3L nightmares that we had to deal with.

With higher JJ's it would mean that on the ascent and descent that the target reticle shook and it was impossible to an aimed shot.

[Mcgral18]

DukeDublin, on 23 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Just tried out 7 jumpjets on a Wolverine. I could barely clear a low building on Frozen City.

What has PGI done?

HoverJets™

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Naduk, on 23 September 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

i use jump jets a lot
i think they are in a very good place right now
no longer do we see excessive jump sniping , but lots of getting around
lights seem almost unaffected
ya know normal mech choices that are now things you MUST decide on
things that nonJJ mechs have been dealing with forever
now JJ mechs must decide and cannot just default to 1 jump jet and have it be enough for every situation

consider how jump jets used to behave
it was the equivalent to 1 single heat sink keeping your mech cool with no need for extras ... ever

bullshazzle.
"i use jump jets a lot. i think they are in a very good place right now" <-- initial statement meant indicate fair mindedness, yet causes immediate arising suspicion.
"no longer do we see excessive jump sniping , but lots of getting around" <-- I never saw excessive jump sniping, just ample and easy targets for my jump-sniper hunter-killers. But this does tell me where your primary focus seems to be. Nerfing the poptart menace instead of actually balancing anything.
"lights seem almost unaffected" again, bullshazzle. Most of my time is spent in lights, specifically Jenners, the RVN4X, and the Huginn. They have been affected. Greatly.
"consider how jump jets used to behave" <<-- they haven't been that way since before open beta.

Ok so you like jumping short distances while you take popshots with your PPC...and hoverjets haven't hurt your gameplay. Fine. But I can have full JJs in my light and still only barely get any useful airtime, while usually I'm scraping my toes against things I can barely make it over, and other times I'm helplessly stuck humping a canyon wall. Jumpjets are broken. End of.

No discussion. The only question left is can they be fixed.

[Tezcatli]

Pretty much what FupDup said. Give it hang time instead of rapid drop and more horizontal movement.

[SmokinDave73]

I really hope PGI will consider revamping the jump jets for at least lights and mediums, the current system does not reward you at all for taking max jump jets on a mech like the griffin.

[Iyica de Tylmarande]

Currently the only use I have for JJs is getting onto a firing perch or avoiding leg damage. It may help to spread damage but sometimes I find JJing mechs easier to hit.

But I agree, make JJs thrust up faster and higher so they actually increase a mech's mobility to a useful level. Obviously increase the reticle shake while JJing to balance out OP poptarting.

[Herr Vorragend]

How about having the MWLL JJ-Behaviour without being able to fire in air? Or being able to fire, but without accuracy?
A little more mobility would surely serve the game and open more tactical flexiblity, when implemeted properly