90 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ok this thread illustrates my original point.

To summarize. I think out of 3 pages, there were only 2-3 people that things JJs are ok they way they are. Most seem to think they were fine before or were in serious need of a buff/revision that gave them more height and distance at the expense of recharge. All pretty much agree that 1-2 JJ shouldn't even really be viable but that 4-6 should provide significant mobility. All also agree that jump sniping/poptarting MIGHT have been a issue to some degree or another but that crippling JJs to solve it wasn't the answer.

So this goes back directly to the devs. The community is speaking so how about looking into JJs again and making their revision part of your re-balancing priorities.

[Bullseye69]

The forward movement on jump jets is in right direction increase it speed. Multiple it by 5 then there can be no popping up and down if you use jump jets your going forward. Now remove the hover board effect for assaults and heavys. Now my Highlander can properly do a Death From Above since it now can jump vertically enough to be above the mech it trying to hit.

Problem Solved.

With the ac and PPC changes along with Gauss charge the pop tarting has been nerfed so the jump jets nerf no longer needed. When the first pass adjusted the highlander and victor jump jets then the jump jets fix for all mech the 2 assault got a double dose.

Thus quote is from sarna on highlander mech:

"[color=#000000]three Hildco [/color]jump jets[color=#000000] giving it a jumping range of 90 meters. The heaviest 'Mech design to feature jump jets at the time, their original task was to allow the [/color]Highlander[color=#000000] the ability to jump over inconvenient obstacles such as buildings and outpace other 'Mechs with a faster ground speed, but because of this increased mobility and its versatile weaponry the [/color]Highlander[color=#000000] proved to be a capable fighter on any battlefield and within decades nearly every BattleMech [/color]regiment[color=#000000] of the Regular and Royal Armies featured them. "[/color]


[color=#000000]"[/color][color=#000000]However it was during the design's initial trial runs that [/color]pilots[color=#000000] began using these 'Mechs in what would infamously become known as the "[/color]Highlander Burial[color=#000000]". Leaping into the air and landing directly on their enemy, a [/color]Highlander [color=#000000]could literally drive a light 'Mech into the ground. So successful was this maneuver that the design team re-engineered the legs to withstand repeated death-from-above attacks and turned what had been a desperation move into an art form, giving [/color]Highlander[color=#000000] pilots an additional psychological edge."[/color]

Edited by Bullseye69, 24 September 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[Andross Deverow]

I would really like to see JJ's addressed also. They are not what they should be, just look up in Sarna and see the distance that mechs are supposed to be able to cover using jump jets. As they sit now its pretty pathetic. I will agree that pop tart users abused a cheese tactic which brought about this horrible state of JJ's but there has to be another way.

I feel that heavier mechs should have some penalty but I also hold to lore that DFA was doable as well. The jump/thrust curve needs adjusting bigtime, mediums should be far more agile, the "Hover Jet" crap we have now is unacceptable. They really need to sort out the number of JJ to the amount of thrust better. See below..

The Highlander is one of the most well-known Star League Defense Force assault 'Mechs, serving with distinction for almost two centuries since first entering service in 2592. Initially designed as a dedicated city and installation defender, the original model featured a variety of weaponry along with fifteen and a half tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor, but perhaps its most useful asset were the three Hildco jump jets giving it a jumping range of 90 meters.

Theres no frigging way MWO's Highlander is getting anywhere near 90 meters.

Another example....

The massive and efficient fusion engine of the Griffin, giving it a cruising speed of 57.1 kph, combined with five jump jets occupying the rear torso areas for a total jumping distance of 150 meters, is what distinguishes it from other medium 'Mechs and has kept the Griffin in the game over the centuries. Unfortunately like most other early 'Mechs the Griffin suffers from insufficient heat capacity with only twelve heat sinks installed. The result is that Griffin pilots, lacking the ability to do both, must choose at the outset of a fight whether to engage or withdraw.

^{I love my Griffins but theres no damn way they are getting 150 meters even with 7 JJ installed}

Russ needs to comment on this issue....

Regards

[General Taskeen]

Even Mech Warrior 2 had directional jump jets that propelled the mech pretty far. Hard to master (with 6 different keys), but fun and effective to use they were.

[Creovex]

General Taskeen, on 24 September 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

Hard to master (with 6 different keys), but fun and effective to use they were.

YODA????

[Lefty Lucy]

Andross Deverow, on 24 September 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

[color=#959595]I love my Griffins but theres no damn way they are getting 150 meters even with 7 JJ installed[/color]

That's because in this game forward jump distance is tied more to your ground speed than to the number of JJ.

[Kassatsu]

I forget, if you had a 150 meter jump, were jump jets supposed to propel you 150 meters into the air, or 150 meters horizontally on an arc?

Cause most mechs can probably go 150 meters horizontally right now on a single jump jet. Obviously, all of the horizontal movement is based on your direction before you actually started firing your jet(s), but technically...

I won't expect Mechwarrior 2's horizontal thrust that lets you hop off the ground and launch a Kodiak through the skies at 500kph, but I would very much like to see better jumping. We've already had so many nerfs to the high alpha builds and with the cockpit shaking (which is some-what circumvented by firing off a laser, seeing where the beam goes and correcting based on that, but doing so in such a short timeframe is quite difficult), that jump jets should finally become useful again. You know, for jumping? Timberwolves tapping the spacebar don't count. Have we seriously not fixed that yet?

Jump jets should propel you forward AND up. Not this odd hover thing they do now. This would not only allow you to some-what change directions in mid-air, but it would also allow for better, you know, jumping. Find an angle that works, or let players choose somehow, maybe tap the spacebar to adjust the angle or add a new keybind to cycle through possible jump angles, and then hold the spacebar to fire them.

Another thing that's always bothered me is that you can turn your legs in the air if you have at least one jump jet installed and fuel remaining... But not if you don't have jets or fuel. The thing is, it doesn't take any fuel to do so, how does that even work?

Even better, bring knockdowns back. Let mechs being hit by an AC20 in mid-air possibly lose their balance and smash into the ground on their arm and/or torso, taking damage to each accordingly. Heck, if you try to run an AC20 raven with a jet you should be prepared to land flat on your back if you fire that thing in the air.

Edited for grammar.

EDIT2: There are many ways to balance out properly functioning jump jets. Make their fuel regenerate slower, add modules to increase their effectiveness from where they're at now (Hey there's an idea - forward momentum module... Not sure why that would be necessary given the design principles of jump jets, but hey... We always need more forced money sinks, right?), just make it a set "jump" with a cooldown timer, increase their heat generation, the list goes on.

Edited by Kassatsu, 24 September 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[DAYLEET]

I almost never used JJ before the nerf on heavy and assault. I only rarely used it on a TDR, not even my CTF. Since the nerf hit ive been using them on my HeavyMetal, my other HGN and my summoner and man for someone who is used to be ground bound are they a game changer. JJ makes playing that much easier and yes more fun too. If you must change something look at the weight of the jj or something. That vid from another game, makes me want to puke, Grasshopper Online no thanks.

[Hatachi]

I really like those jump jets in Living Legends. A hard 90 degree forward push keeps them from being used from pop tarting and makes them an excellent mobility tool. Imagine how different a Summoner would as a choice if it could bounce around the environment like that. I've always thought that jump jets should primarily be used for positioning and brawler mobility, although I might be in a minority in that opinion.

[Khobai]

Quote

The current JJ mechanics are not particularly fun, and they do not grant the mobility that they really should.

Yeah but back when JJs did grant more mobility, mechs with JJ were outright superior to mechs without JJs.

If JJs are restored back they need to come with some serious drawbacks.

[Lefty Lucy]

Khobai, on 24 September 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Yeah but back when JJs did grant more mobility, mechs with JJ were outright superior to mechs without JJs.

If JJs are restored back they need to come with some serious drawbacks.

That wasn't due to mobility, but due to jump sniping. Just add reticle sway (not shake) on the descent, and you fix that.

[aniviron]

General Taskeen, on 24 September 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

Even Mech Warrior 2 had directional jump jets that propelled the mech pretty far. Hard to master (with 6 different keys), but fun and effective to use they were.

And then this game's multiplayer would be exactly like Mechwarrior 2's NetMech, where anyone who didn't bring jumpjets was stupid, because they clearly made any mech with them much better.

[Brody319]

Horizontal jumps would be a fantastic way to add depth to combat. Think like Hawken's strafe jets. Just have them take up like 25% fuel to do, and it would prevent lights from spamming it. then give the king crab it so I can scuttle like a crab

[ShadowbaneX]

Vidarok, on 23 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Maybe we can let certain mechs excel with jump jets using some new mech quirks?

Hell yes! Especially the Highlander. For the mech that made the Highlander Burial a Thing, it actually needs to be able to be able to jump higher than a couple of meters. I've been on the record of calling them Hop Jets instead of Jump Jets, and in some cases, they can't even do that.

On the weekend I pulled my 732 out of moth balls and gave it a spin, and to be honest the only thing the jump jets were useful for was slowing my decent speed if I dropped down off an elevated edge or cliff. That's it. I think in a full burn I was able to get up to 5 m/s for vertical thrust...which isn't enough to clear a sand castle, let alone any terrain or to DFA an enemy mech.

That video of MW:LL's JJ's is what I want for MWO. I can get that it can be a bit problematic with terrain and map edges, and there's problems with poptarts, but that's more what Jump Jets should be.

Also, the Shadow Hawks really need to be able to carry 5 JJs. They're 5/8 mechs, that means that even though the Shadow Hawk typically comes standard with 3 JJs, they can mount up to 5 and all Shadow Hawks should be able to do that. The SHD-5M should be able to go up to 7 like Griffin & Wolverine.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Ok, so.

JJ first jump forces 30% fuel burn, uncontrolled forceful lifting jump.

Crosshair shake begins immediately.

After 30% is used on initial jump, JJ's switch to manual control for 4 seconds (for feathering or controlling falls).

After 4 second timer has counted down, the next jump will burn 30% or w/e remaining fuel.

JJ crosshair shake should SLOWLY return to center when in flight without thrust, not the immediately like now.

Anytime you're in a fall (negative climb must be at -1 to toggle) JJ thrusting is toggled to manual control to avoid overjumps or accidental leaps.

Anytime your rate of climb is in the negative #'s (-10 through -100) you get a 30-40% boost in thrust to controll a fall (orbital descent anyone?)

When your rate of climb is at 0 or higher, thrust #'s will retain their default thrust.

Thrust gain per additional jumpjet should be built on a dynamic curve, not linear, giving a significant performance gain for dedicating so much tonnage to just maneuverability.

The initial forced 30% burn will control bunnyhopping.
Softening the transition for crosshair shake during a jump will make it harder to snapshot accurately because you don't regain 100% accuracy the instant you stop thrusting (poptarting)
Thrust boost when in a fall will help alot in controlling leg damage for those who actually micromanage their thrust when falling.

Thats how I would do it.

Edited by Mister D, 24 September 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Yeah count me as on board for a change.

As a medium mech jock, the agility that was stripped from the jump capable 45-55 ton mechs was just too severe. PGI nerfed to stop one thing, but in turn they neutered an entire weight class, one which is very underused at that.

We're already the size of heavies, so maneuverability and powerful JJs were our only real advantages in a brawl. Now we can get in, but can't jump our way out.

The current mechanics are too much in contrast to how canon says the medium should jump, and it makes being the few medium pilots there still are much, much harder.

Cheers.

Edited by Kevjack, 24 September 2014 - 06:19 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Dawnstealer, on 23 September 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Really, having never played that mod, it does look like they got jump jets "right" (ie. how I envisioned them). Just fast "pops" that get you very quickly from one spot to another. Maybe lock the arms while jumping? Continue reticle shake through the entire jump? I don't want to return to the horrid poptart days, but JJs don't really work now.

They didn't just get jump jets right, they got EVERYTHING right.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 September 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Yeah but back when JJs did grant more mobility, mechs with JJ were outright superior to mechs without JJs.

If JJs are restored back they need to come with some serious drawbacks.

That was due to two factors:

1. Drastically over-punitive slope climbing penalties.

2. Poptarting.


The fix to #1 is to make slopes just slow down a mech rather than make it stop outright. A mech should only completely stop if you're trying to climb a sheer cliff face or something similar.

The fix to #2 could be any number of things, such as reticule shake during the first few moments on decent and/or designing the jets to be harder to poptart with (i.e. MWLL style, where it was very easy to "overshoot" a jump and thus be exposed to enemy fire).

[mindwarp]

Tabletop JJ gave you 30m forward or one 60 degree turn with a maximum height of 6m per jump jet.

[ShadowbaneX]

mindwarp, on 24 September 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Tabletop JJ gave you 30m forward or one 60 degree turn with a maximum height of 6m per jump jet.

Which version is that, because from what I remember when you jumped you got to choose which way you were facing when landing, or 1 JJ give 30m in any direction and 180° of rotation.