231 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

Mister D, on 24 September 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

I've quit using PPC's entirely.

Same

[Jonny Taco]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Thanks - I haven't view yet but will very soon and pass it along to Neema as well

Keep them coming

Have you guys considered lowering the number of "hits" in a lasers beam? From just splashing around a single LL, it looks like the number of "hits" within the beam duration is easily 100+. A 6-8 laser vomit group would probably be 600+ "hits". Why not lower this to like 20 "hits" per beam and see if things improve...

[Russ Bullock]

Tommy 42, on 29 September 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

Example:
Go to

http://www.twitch.tv...gtv/b/573163437

and there to 02.24.00. Watch 1 minute.

This is JagerXII NGNGTV Twitch stream of sunday, 28 september 2014.

Jager and his buddy (Bentron?; not sure) put at least 80 damage in the ct of a vulture at short range. These guys (top competitive players) know how to aim and hold a laser burn and you can see it clearly. Vulture has a maximum ct armor of 80 (with no rear armor in this case, so probably more around 70). Instead of being cored, the vulture had only .... yellow ct armor after that.
Edit: And, the vulture was almost stationary (backing up a bit, so definitely not moving fast) and also Jager was stationary while shooting so its not only an issue with (fast) moving mechs.

Hope this helps and thx for looking into it.

Okay please see these screen shots.





I know people will want me to nerf the Mad Dog hit boxes - I think we wanted to be so sure that the nose didn't end up like the Dragon's that it got really protected. As you can see the best place to hit the CT will be lower down on the CT.

But I want you to watch this Jager stream again. It seems to be that perhaps only ~40% of the damage going to the CT, perhaps less. Please watch again and let me know what you think.

At any rate it goes from Damning evidence to perhaps making complete sense, if you have a video that is more cut and dry that would be better.

[Bilbo]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Okay please see these screen shots.





I know people will want me to nerf the Mad Dog hit boxes - I think we wanted to be so sure that the nose didn't end up like the Dragon's that it got really protected. As you can see the best place to hit the CT will be lower down on the CT.

But I want you to watch this Jager stream again. It seems to be that perhaps only ~40% of the damage going to the CT, perhaps less. Please watch again and let me know what you think.

At any rate it goes from Damning evidence to perhaps making complete sense, if you have a video that is more cut and dry that would be better.

Would it be possible to get something like this for all mechs?

[Russ Bullock]

Bilbo, on 03 October 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Would it be possible to get something like this for all mechs?

Well on the one hand I want to avoid instances of perceived bad hit registration of course, but also don't want to just teach forum goers how to destroy all mechs easiest.

But sticking to the point at hand - can you see what I am referring to when you watch Jager's lasers hit the Mad Dog - it is not 60 dmg to the CT - perhaps less than half.

[ManDaisy]

vulture has some nice hit boxes, tanky like the stalker.

[Leguvan]

The first fire definitely strayed off, you could see it by the laser heat left behind. The second shot went off to the right (left shoulder). I don't see much of a problem.

[Russ Bullock]

Leguvan, on 03 October 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

The first fire definitely strayed off, you could see it by the laser heat left behind. The second shot went off to the right (left shoulder). I don't see much of a problem.

This is what I am thinking - which is why we need HTAL - it might get rid of the vast majority or all perceived problems. I am not saying there might be some real problems but this video doesn't show one in my opinion.

[Peter2000]

Russ, people have already gone through and made unofficial ones after tons of hours of testing. It would be nice to have these official ones out there.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well on the one hand I want to avoid instances of perceived bad hit registration of course, but also don't want to just teach forum goers how to destroy all mechs easiest.

But sticking to the point at hand - can you see what I am referring to when you watch Jager's lasers hit the Mad Dog - it is not 60 dmg to the CT - perhaps less than half.

Actually Russ, we used to have pretty clear hitbox definitions when MWO used the older UI, players knew what armor covered where, and how to best distribute their armor points thanks to the Glowing Body part selection that the old UI used.

It wasn't so much about knowing how to destroy your enemy the quickest, but for new players as an aid in learning your own mech's weakpoints and setting armor appropriately with that knowledge.

Good players and vets already know hitbox locations/weak points, how and where to aim to get quick kills.

I think it would be nice to have that feature available again for UI 2.0.

As for the Maddog, couldn't hurt to bring that CT hitbox from nose to cockpit, back 1 Quad.

Edited by Mister D, 03 October 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[Zyllos]

Can I see those "hitbox screens" for the Dragon and Jenner? heh

Those two mechs could use some work on the hitboxes and it would be much easier to do with wire frames.

Edited by Zyllos, 03 October 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 03 October 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Actually Russ, we used to have pretty clear hitbox definitions when MWO used the older UI, players knew what armor covered where, and how to best distribute their armor points thanks to the Glowing Body part selection that the old UI used.

It wasn't so much about knowing how to destroy your enemy the quickest, but for new players as an aid in learning your own mech's weakpoints and setting armor appropriately with that knowledge.

Good players and vets already know hitbox locations/weak points, how and where to aim to get quick kills.

I think it would be nice to have that feature available again for UI 2.0.

As for the Maddog, couldn't hurt to bring that CT hitbox from nose to cockpit, back 1 Quad.

its a 60 tonner man. Needs the love it can get. The side torsos are already so easy to pop off. Moving the CT back wouldn't actually help the STs much at all, as they are usually hit from different angles, but just make it easier to core.


Let's have SOME reason for people to take it over the Timberwolf, please.

[Ultimax]

Mister D, on 03 October 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

As for the Maddog, couldn't hurt to bring that CT hitbox from nose to cockpit, back 1 Quad.

The exact thing it would do is hurt it.

It's a 60 ton mech, with 60 ton armor.

It has no JJs, and isn't particularly maneuverable


Having played with it, and against it, this mech is fine as is and is not overly tanky.


It's not "tanky like a Stalker" like some other poster said, seriously people need to just stop spouting dumb stuff.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 October 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[stjobe]

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well on the one hand I want to avoid instances of perceived bad hit registration of course

Good, let's focus on this...

Russ Bullock, on 03 October 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

but also don't want to just teach forum goers how to destroy all mechs easiest.

...and just forget about this gaffe. "Teach forum goers how to destroy all mechs easiest" - do you really believe people don't know more or less how the hitboxes look already?

There's nothing to gain from trying to keep the hitboxes "secret". Nothing but bad-will.

Transparency wins the day Russ, not secrecy and obscurity. That was the old, bad, IGP way, not the way of the "new" PGI - am I right?

[Russ Bullock]

stjobe, on 03 October 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Good, let's focus on this...


...and just forget about this gaffe. "Teach forum goers how to destroy all mechs easiest" - do you really believe people don't know more or less how the hitboxes look already?

There's nothing to gain from trying to keep the hitboxes "secret". Nothing but bad-will.

Transparency wins the day Russ, not secrecy and obscurity. That was the old, bad, IGP way, not the way of the "new" PGI - am I right?

Forget transparency and secrecy - maybe I will share them but this thread is not about that - please.

Focus on the video and the images of the hitboxes - I am trying to address the concerns on hit reg

[Monky]

I would like to see the hitboxes for mechs, I don't see a balance reason not to since we can already go into training grounds to test hitboxes for a 'rough estimate' of how to destroy mechs. Seeing the precise hitboxes isn't a big change just a nice convenience.

As far as hit reg, particularly with lasers, it seems there is a risk of no reg situations. I have had some lately myself and it seems erratic. Normally it is with a mech that is facing me head on, I shoot, register a hit, see no damage on the paper doll with a center of mass shot. Not even an armor blink. It could be the paper doll not updating, it could be a desynch (though it seems unlikely, combat otherwise is working fine at these times and they seem to be right in front of me and fighting me as a mech normally would).

I think Jager's video does display this kind of behavior as even with splitting the hit over all three hitboxes the damage should have rendered a fully armored torso orange, as your armor percantages adjust the color above that level of armor HP already. And that's assuming a perfect split of damage between all side torsos.

Edited by Monky, 03 October 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Drunk Canuck]

ManDaisy, on 03 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

vulture has some nice hit boxes, tanky like the stalker.

Until your side torsos get shot at, then you are dead.

[Gyrok]

Russ Bullock, on 24 September 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Hi everyone,

Very concerning post for sure.

I was personally very surprised to see this as we did a complete audit on Hit Detection back when we fixed the SRM's. After we fixed SRM's we ended up making a fix to both MG's and Lasers. Since that point in time our telemetry shows us almost exactly the same performance now across all weapon types.

But players are feeling as though this isn't the case with lasers, so we need to figure out why this is. Is it something about the presentation to the player that is misleading or is there some true missing damage and therefore a problem that is fooling the telemetry calculation as well.

I guess I would ask if you the players might be able to provide some example video footage. Back in the SRM days we got some very good footage of situations that helped us. It would help in our investigation if you could provide the same while using lasers.

I have noted that this is very likely to occur with large gaps in ping between players. If you have someone around 90-110 ping (say myself for example), and a player that is around 200-225 ping, then the hit registration for beam weapons and PPCs in particular tends to get pretty rough.

I have attributed some of this to lag...however, there have been other times where it seems like the hit reg is off quite a bit and the differences in ping are much lower. So I cannot account for lag entirely being the culprit.

[Draconis Nagasawa]

Yes. Lets not teach everyone how to defeat mechs the quickest. Most veteran players know which IS mechs and builds most likely carry XL engines.

Hit boxes are part of the learning process, play the game for what it is, ya?

[Bishop Steiner]

Drunk Canuck, on 03 October 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Until your side torsos get shot at, then you are dead.

Tanky is Stormcrow and Timberwolf. Twist to survive is the Summoner. Really all the Mad Dog has going for it, is the CT doesn't go first. It's hard points make it SEEM like its a great ambush brawler....but even with artemis it spreads that damage all over kingdom come. And it's not terribly maneuverable, even mastered. So usually, against any decent level of play, before your 4th volley, you have lost at least one torso.

I really don't get where people get the "tanky" bit, especially people who have been here long enough you would hope they were better shots by now.