362 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

WubShee and WubShee and....oh...hm...WubFox? Wait...no, that's dead. 150% heat is too much. Can't mix tech either.

Is PGI going to force me to take an effective mech? That's no fun.

[Asyres]

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

WubShee and WubShee and....oh...hm...WubFox? Wait...no, that's dead. 150% heat is too much. Can't mix tech either.

Is PGI going to force me to take an effective mech? That's no fun.

They aren't forcing you to take an effective mech, just one of each class. You could take a Wubcust, a WubBack, a WubDraw, and a WubShee if you wanted.


I kind of hate myself for typing that.

[Wildgrin]

I think that a 1/1/1/1 with a tonnage limit could be interesting. If you pulled all max tonners in each weight class its 265 and min is 200. So I think something in the 230-240 range would allow for you to take a couple upper weight mechs while still forcing you to make sacrifices.

235 actually lets you always take 2 max weight mechs with the other 2 pretty much being the minimum weights. So perhaps go with 230 to prevent the 20/40/75/100 grouping if that is an issue.

This gets you the guaranteed even matches but also adds some strategy to packing your drop deck.

[Mcgral18]

Asyres, on 25 September 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

They aren't forcing you to take an effective mech, just one of each class. You could take a Wubcust, a WubBack, a WubDraw, and a WubShee if you wanted.


I kind of hate myself for typing that.

I'm afraid only the WubShee has so much spare tonnage to actually use Pulse Lasers, being the terribad weapons that they are.

Perhaps next week the WubShee won't be more agile than a Victor. That would be nice, and save 15 tons.


I'm pretty indifferent on the method of tonnage or weight class, both add a nice variety, one with more randomness. I kinda wish we got the Viper instead of the Fenris, though. Pretty much a 40 ton Ember, much more tonnage efficient...

[SirLANsalot]

DEMAX51, on 25 September 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Because your team would be completely gimped by sheer lack of numbers. Let's say the tonnage limit is 200 (though personally I think 240 is the magic number). One team has all 12 players bring 2 Atlases, while the other side has each person bring four 50 ton Mediums. 24 Atlases vs. 48 'Mechs. Those are some pretty tall odds to overcome for the team of Atlases. Have you ever run a just for fun private match with like 2 or 3 Atlases up against a pack of Locusts? It doesn't normally end well for the Atlases. The number of 'Mechs on the field makes a much bigger difference than the tonnage.

Exactly!

200t is the magic number, since it limits the number of assaults on field to only 1-2 per a player if they even take assaults at all. This puts more power into the pockets of Mediums and Heavies being the more favored mechs, rather then the big ol assaults. This is a GOOOOOODDDDDDD thing to have happen. Taking 2 heavies and 1 medium and 1 light gives you the 4 limit, but you would have to take the Border mechs to accomplish that. Basically, if you want to be a heavy/assault pilot, you will have to deal with FEWER respawns then someone who is a happy Light/Medium pilot.


I am a Heavy/Assault pilot myself, and even proposing this puts a dampener on my own playstayle, which I find perfectly acceptable. If I want to pilot the big boys, I am going to pay for it in some other way.






As for the responses to the ballistics.

I was referring to the mechs that are mostly ballistic based for there damage. Like the Jagers, or the silly AC20 Blackjacks. These mechs are going to be reliing more on there energy to fight, and having to make sure that every shot with there gun, hits. It really changes the playstayle very dramatically, in ways no one can even prdiect how far and how deep it will change the game. Mechs that are really popular now....will die off in favor of a more conservative approach with beams and PPC's and smaller caliber AC's and smaller LRMs. You know your in a fight for a LOT longer then just a few min, and very possibly could be going to the end of the fight with just that one mech.

My favorite Cataphract, the 4X with 4 AC5's and a pair of ML would not do well on this mode at all, as it barely has enough ammo for a prolonged 5 min fight, much less anything longer. In fact, the 1x and 2x would become much more popular (for those who use catas) then the 3D or Illya due to the fact those 2 other mechs, have more energy and a few missile slots even. Mechs that were and have been long time popular mechs, will fade out due to the limited ammo or limited energy options they bring.

This game mode, even if we do not get the 200t/4 mech layout we want....is going to change this game.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 25 September 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[Brody319]

at 200 I can drop 2 Timber wolves and a light at 25 tons, stripped locus with a single laser. Timber wolves rip up enough metal to justify me just bringing in 2 of them. If they do decide to go with the weight limit rather than the 1/1/1/1. The wolves shall be hunting.

[Tzion]

I have to say that I like the idea that each player only has one of each class on their dropships. Not only does this mean that every single person who plays community warfare will have to play every single weight class but it will mean that initially those people who are top dogs in only one weight class will suddenly be looking really foolish when they drop in a mech at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Anoter nice thing though concerns other features of cw. PGI has now said that the attacking side will not have to be a 12 man group. This means that its quite possible (realistically highly likely) that there will be two man groups who if there was only a tonnage limit of 200 would take only two assaults for fun or for cbill farming. Those people don't really care about the team aspect. Lets just say that the attackers had only one group of two players who did that but they did have a three players who only brought three mechs while the defenders all brought four mechs. Now suddenly the attackers start the match with a 7 mech deficit. That would mean that for each attacking player to pull his own weight he would have to kill at least 3 mechs + a small amount of the remaining 12 mechs in order for them to win. Lets face it, normally in a regular match right now there is almost never a match where every single player on the wining side kills even 1 mech. Basically, if they allowed tonnage limits instead of one of each weight class we would all be in here complaining about how broken the match maker is due to the fact that it didn't match the number of mechs each side had. It is so much easier for the match maker to create matches when there are 48 mechs on both sides and the system doesn't even have to check that number.

What ammount of total mechs would you be okay with per side? A match of 48 vs 36? 36 vs 24? 40 vs 40? Its nice to know that both sides will always have 48 mechs and my team doesn't have to figure out how many mechs we have at the start of the match and base our tactics around having a defficit. It wouldn't take very long before one side would figure out "Oh this team is playing very caustiously, they must have a low ammount of mechs with them and we have 48. Lets just sit back and snipe them until they are all dead.

Trust me we will have enough tactical considerations to make in cw. How many mechs should go to this gate and what weight classes should go there. What about the farthest gate, how do we get 4 assaults over there since we all did assualts for our initial drop? How do we cover that power generator without exposing ourselves to much? Do we try and spawn rush them?

[King Arthur IV]

i would go as low as 185 ton.

[Xtrekker]

Bhael Fire, on 25 September 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I am glad they forcing players to bring one of each weight class. Not only does it keep things balanced, it forces players to play outside of their comfort zone once their main mech is destroyed.

Many people are looking at it ALL wrong; most players are seeing like, "I should be able to bring whatever I want for all 4 mechs"...when in reality, you can bring whatever you want for your main mech. The extra mechs are meant only as emergency backup re-enforcements.

It's basically 3 extra chances to help your team, but each time you die you get weaker and weaker.

This is very wise design decision.

Seems like it would be better to run the opposite. Bring in your worst mechs up front, assuming they're bringing their best. You do as much damage as you can, and then make a strong finish against their gimped metas.

I think 1/1/1/1 works best with tonnage limits that encourage you to rework your drop deck depending on your strategy and to repurpose some little-used chassis as needed.

[AlexEss]

first off @OP i am pretty sure they never stated that it would be weight based/FFA on the drop deck. They just said you can take mechs that fit the task at hand.

Secondly i am ok with the price of me being unable to bring a full deck of mediums if it ensures that i do not face down an entire team made up of heavy assaults and ECM ravens(or the clan EQ).... It is a price i gladly pay. Now this do mean i have to look up some fast heavies and since i am IS that will make me a tad bit UP seeing how i can not default to the crazy feline.

But yes i think that 1/1/1/1 is the best solution seeing as they have dropped the 12-man premade rule. in order to have fair and balanced matches. Yes itis annoying to not be able to bring four of that mech you are epic in but you will still be epic and if you can stay alive through two waves of opposition for an example you will have made some serious difference most likley.

Now the ones that will have a fun time are the Assault only pilots getting in to a light... It will be Hi.. La.. Rious...

[Kreisel]

Practically speaking the tonnage limit makes waaaay to many issues trying to create balance in the matchmaker, how do you balance having less than the max number of mechs, or if someone is a dedicated light pilot and doesn't use the full tonnage limit they are allowed? It makes the issues of trying to find balanced teams way too complex. What happens if one team in the que each took 2 100 Mechs and the other team everyone went light swarm... do you force the matchmaker to pass on such match ups because how uneven they are?

Lights should be reasonably within the same realm of speed and power as each other, same with mediums, heavy, and assaults. It helps PGI identify how to balance mechs, make it perform comparably to mechs of it's same class. if it will always be a 1 to 1 ratio, rather than trying to look at lights, heavy and assaults to balance mediums, you can focus on how mediums stack up to each other.

1/1/1/1 Really is the only way to be sure the two teams have the same relative number of mechs. I kind of like the idea of 1/1/1/1 with a tonnage limit as well, but I can see issues with this, what if a player in question literally can not meet those requirements with the mechs they own (force them into trail mech substitutes, what if even those don't match)?

3/3/3/3 hasn't phased out the use of certain mechs so why would 12/12/12/12, sure certain mechs are not considered as competitive, but people still run them. The idea that the spawn point is going to be far away from the action may shift a preference for slightly lighter mechs, the smaller mechs of the same class are generally faster, and if the battle is ongoing when you spawn, you are going to want to be able to get back into that action as quickly as possible. Ideally you want to get back into the fight as quickly as possible, because getting in their fresh may vastly improve the lifespan of an beat up ally who hasn't needed to respawn yet. I suspect people will start to favor fast mechs, long range weapons and LRM's on the mechs they respawn in because of how much faster it will get them back into the action. Teammates will be in bad shape until you make it back to the fight, due to the snowball effect (as you start losing people focus fire and pushing becomes easy for the other team). In particular, I expect to see Assaults that are not the first drop to have at-least a token lrm launcher so they can start to put damage on while they are still walking back to the fight and might not have line of sight for quite a while. The frustration of watching teammates dying while you are slowly walking back... only to reach the front lines as they are wiped out and you are now alone and thus easy pickings will make people choose mechs to minimize that experience.

Edited by Kreisel, 25 September 2014 - 11:34 PM.

[Ozric]

A compromise between 1/1/1/1 and pure tonnage would be a max tonnage value (say 240) and a few extra stipulations. Only one/two mechs per chassis/weight class, and that you must bring four mechs. Bringing 4 mechs so the team has a full line up also goes a long way to making sure the weight classes are still balanced.

[aniviron]

EDIT: I'm an idiot! \o/

Edited by aniviron, 26 September 2014 - 01:00 AM.

[Xtrekker]

aniviron, on 26 September 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

While it's a bit silly, I'm fine with it as long as the event is not affiliated with the Susan G. Komen foundation; they're pretty shady. Specifically, not very much of their money goes to research or any sort of cure at all; and if the event is not affiliated, be careful, because they've been known to sue people for using the colour pink and the word cure in conjunction.

Wrong thread hoss.

[SirLANsalot]

Kreisel, on 25 September 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

Practically speaking the tonnage limit makes waaaay to many issues trying to create balance in the matchmaker, how do you balance having less than the max number of mechs, or if someone is a dedicated light pilot and doesn't use the full tonnage limit they are allowed? It makes the issues of trying to find balanced teams way too complex. What happens if one team in the que each took 2 100 Mechs and the other team everyone went light swarm... do you force the matchmaker to pass on such match ups because how uneven they are?

Lights should be reasonably within the same realm of speed and power as each other, same with mediums, heavy, and assaults. It helps PGI identify how to balance mechs, make it perform comparably to mechs of it's same class. if it will always be a 1 to 1 ratio, rather than trying to look at lights, heavy and assaults to balance mediums, you can focus on how mediums stack up to each other.

1/1/1/1 Really is the only way to be sure the two teams have the same relative number of mechs. I kind of like the idea of 1/1/1/1 with a tonnage limit as well, but I can see issues with this, what if a player in question literally can not meet those requirements with the mechs they own (force them into trail mech substitutes, what if even those don't match)?

3/3/3/3 hasn't phased out the use of certain mechs so why would 12/12/12/12, sure certain mechs are not considered as competitive, but people still run them. The idea that the spawn point is going to be far away from the action may shift a preference for slightly lighter mechs, the smaller mechs of the same class are generally faster, and if the battle is ongoing when you spawn, you are going to want to be able to get back into that action as quickly as possible. Ideally you want to get back into the fight as quickly as possible, because getting in their fresh may vastly improve the lifespan of an beat up ally who hasn't needed to respawn yet. I suspect people will start to favor fast mechs, long range weapons and LRM's on the mechs they respawn in because of how much faster it will get them back into the action. Teammates will be in bad shape until you make it back to the fight, due to the snowball effect (as you start losing people focus fire and pushing becomes easy for the other team). In particular, I expect to see Assaults that are not the first drop to have at-least a token lrm launcher so they can start to put damage on while they are still walking back to the fight and might not have line of sight for quite a while. The frustration of watching teammates dying while you are slowly walking back... only to reach the front lines as they are wiped out and you are now alone and thus easy pickings will make people choose mechs to minimize that experience.

Wrong.


With 200t if you take 2 heavies/assaults and maybe a light, you are betting that you can do better with bigger mechs, then say the enemy team with all hunchbacks. This is where a HIGH skilled pilot in those 2 mechs, will probably be doing about 4-6 mechs worth of damage.


Forcing people to play mechs THEY DO NOT LIKE, is never EVER the option in the name of "balance". You will hurt your player base more and generally make the players not like you (the devs) for forcing them to do something they do not want. 3x4 doesn't force you to play something you do not want to play, it instead, just makes you wait a little longer if you really want to play XX mech class. Waiting is relative, for some it might be too long, others its just part of the "job".

Trying to balance the Drop Deck system....its easy and obviously people are missing the damn point. 200t....two hundred tons is a limit! What you can take within that 200 is up to you up to a limit of 4 mechs or that tonnage. This means a team can have anywhere between 24 or 48 mechs of varying tonnages. Ya someone could load up with 2 Assault mechs, and his lance could do that too, hell the whole team could, but it will not mean they win. Every loss of a mech will be devastating to the team, and against a team that took a mix of everything, the team that stacked the big boys...will lose!

An example of this is played with every time a Grey Knights or Blood Angles player runs a list in Warhammer 40k, or a Kator Player in Warmachine running a Jack list. These armies are high point low model count armies. Each guy can take a beating ya, but every time you lose just ONE guy, its a crippling blow. A 2000pts army with Grey Knights can be all of 14 models, vs armies that have well over 200 models in the same point limit (Imperial Guard or Orks). The GK player is going to have each of his models outnumbered and each one is going to be taking volumes of fire each turn. By all purposes in WH40k those two armies are balanced to each other, there both at 2000pts, it will be up to Tactics and the Dice Rolls to determine who wins.

This is the same thing here in MWO with a 200t Drop Deck. The person who takes 2 Atlas's or Dire Wolves, is going to have to kill at least 4 or more mechs before dieing himself, and that is not including if he runs across a mech of his own class to slug it out with. Two players fighting it out, one with 2 100t mechs in his bay (so 1 extra spawn) vs a player who has 4 Hunchback 4G's in his bay. The hunchback player should win the fight, even if it takes him 2 mechs to take out one 100t.



So no to this 1/1/1/1 crap that forces players to use things they do not want to use. 200t might not be "perfectly" balanced, however, it is balanced based on the fact that taking big heavy things might actually hurt you, more then help you.

[aniviron]

Xtrekker, on 26 September 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Wrong thread hoss.

That's what I get for copying and pasting after doing a fact-check.

[Trevor Belmont]

Yeah, I'm on board for the weight limit. I rarely playing heavies and assaults, I don't even own any Clan mechs over 50 tons. I'd rather be able to bring 4 x 50 ton mechs or however I see fit.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Johnny Z, on 25 September 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Great OP. Brings up some of the strategic elements for the players in dropship mode. That along with which mech to use first and I am guessing many other strategic elements, its a good addition.

The one mech drop has its place, but the 4 mech dropships will add alot to the game and thats a good thing.

I am for the 1/1/1/1 dropship for alot of reasons, but it is easier to say that I think the push for all heavy and assault mech direct fire game play makes the game more generic to put it simply.

Makes the game more like what they initially didnt want MWO to turn into. I know I heard in several of thier early interviews they wanted to make this game more than a rush to the biggest mech, including all weight classes and giving them each viable roles to play in this game. But in the end, its just a big brawl, and the biggest guns wins brawls.

[Wintersdark]

King Arthur IV, on 25 September 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

i would go as low as 185 ton.

I'd definitely stick with 200t; no less. Simply because the "Line Mech" is basically a 50t medium, and this covers 4x50tonners. It's also a rounder number, making for easier mental math.

You could go as high as 240, but I think 200 is really the Money Spot. It prevents 3xAssault completely, making a hard cap of 24 Assaults on a team.

[Mcgral18]

Now, all we need is the Piranha with a 200 ton limit.

120 machine guns....it will be glorious.