362 replies to this topic

[Targetloc]

I like the idea of a tonnage limit over 1/1/1/1. You'll see more than just 35, 55, 75, 100.

[Torgun]

Targetloc, on 26 September 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

I like the idea of a tonnage limit over 1/1/1/1. You'll see more than just 35, 55, 75, 100.

I think this should be the best solution that doesn't end up in an overly complicated mess. Somewhere around 230t total would make sense and finally make the lighter mechs in their respective weightclasses be useful instead of just for lulz.

[Eddrick]

Kain Thul, on 26 September 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

240 or 245 looks like a good limit for the IS to me.

It does seem to be the "Magic Number" for IS. With how the MM counts Clan Mechs as 5 Tons more then they are (When it gets the chance to do it. When waits are short.). Clans would basicaly, be working with 220 Tons if they stick with that system.

Clans should get the oportunity to use lower Tonnage then the max for C-Bill bonuses (It would kind of fit Clan lore with how Clans bet lowest Tonnage for the right to take part in a mission). Can even give the IS the ability to do the same.

[SirLANsalot]

If i read you right Russ, your saying everyone will be forced to take 4 mechs, and cannot take fewer? Might need to rework that, because that's just plain CRAP! If a player chooses to take fewer then 4 mechs, ITS HIS CHOICE! Meaning fewer re-spawns at the "cost" of not having that 3rd or 4th re-spawn.

Coding being the reason you cannot do it? What kind of crap is that? If you don't have a 4th mech, then you don't get to spawn again...simple as that.


Clans might need a slightly higher drop deck then IS, due to the limited number of mechs they have available. IS have every tonnage number, the clans only have a fraction of it, and as such many players might actually have to drop with 3 because of a 5-15 ton difference in there mech choices (the TW and the MD are 15 tons different and are two very different mechs). I foresee a lot of clan players (myself included) having to run 2-3 mechs due to poor available choices. If we are FORCED (again a bad thing) to take 4 mechs, then many will not be able to take there best mechs, and be forced to play "sub par" mechs that they are not good with, or just despise.


Allow players TO CHOOSE if they want to have 2-4 mechs, it becomes a meaningful choice.


Also, 240 tons isn't enough for clans if they are forced to take 4 mechs, there are no 20ton options for clans that are in the game, so they will not be able to take 2 DW and 2 20t mechs.....That right there is a MAJOR handicap that just might stop a helluva lot of people from even playing CW (I know I would hate playing it) at all, if we are forced to take fewer of our premier mechs.

I am a 100t assault pilot, I love my DW and devastate everything in front of me. Taking just 2 of those into a game, with 2 different loadouts (or 2 of the same) would be more then enough for me to fight, and possibly win, a full 30 or more min match. If I die in both mechs, early in the game, then I get to be promoted to Observer, and just get to watch the fight. It was MY choice to not take 4 mechs, and as such I am paying for it by not being able to continue to help my team.

[Kain Demos]

That is pretty much the point of a weight limit in the low 200s......that "weigh" (couldn't help it, sorry) both sides don't just load up on 100 ton assault 'mechs.

Go ahead and bring your DW just keep in mind your other 3 mechs will only be able to total another 100-120tons.

I would prefer just the hard weight limit instead of the four mechs AND a weight limit thing as well but it seems to me they want to make sure no one is dropping with only one mech and griefing the team.

If the IS weight limit is to be 240-245 I would be embarrassed if the Clans can bring anything over 220.

Edited by Kain Thul, 26 September 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Brody319]

Kain Thul, on 26 September 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

That is pretty much the point of a weight limit in the low 200s......that "weigh" (couldn't help it, sorry) both sides don't just load up on 100 ton assault 'mechs.

Go ahead and bring your DW just keep in mind your other 3 mechs will only be able to total another 100-120tons.

I would prefer just the hard weight limit instead of the four mechs AND a weight limit thing as well but it seems to me they want to make sure no one is dropping with only one mech and griefing the team.

If the IS weight limit is to be 200-240 I would be embarrassed if the Clans can bring anything over 220.

Like the guy dropping in with 4 lights causing his team to have to deal with being vastly under tonnaged compared to their enemy.
If heavy players have to make sacrifices, how about we also have a tonnage minimum? That way we don't have an entire lance of 4 light mechs, make them bring a heavy if they want to run mostly lights. Would also increase the use of mediums, which seems to be a lot of people's goals.

[Geck0]

Russ Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

I admit I read very little of the entire thread - too little time in a day.

I will say this - in a perfect world we would have our groups limited to 4, 8 and 12 in CW and make each lance of a light, medium, heavy and Assault pilot with their drop ships full of those types of mechs - that way our MM can very easily put together matches.

But we know the players wouldn't like this concession they would prefer to have their groups of 5,6,7,9,10....

When you have group sizes like this it gets very difficult on the MM as seen in the public Group Queue - one group of 10 might not even fit with some of the groups of 2 based on all the heavy or assault slots being taken and it goes from there.

1 of each weight class gets past this and ensures variety.

However internally we are now discussing tonnage limits for CW and I am pushing this notion pretty strongly. It will end up providing more flexibility to players who want to perhaps take nothing but their Jenner's out for instance. But will become more restricting as you go higher, for instance nobody is going to take 4 Direwolf's - in fact if they take 2 their last two mechs are going to be pretty dang light.

But Tonnage restrictions does allow us to change it per planet if we desire.

I know players would like to push the tonnage limit up as high as possible so they can take as many of their favorite heavy mech as possible but I currently like the number of 240 tons.

This is fantastic but I think that's the general consensus.

What I would like to ask is if you could please look at a tonnage pool for grouped players.

This will allow groups/units to leave their specialists play the roles they really want. They will still be given the same restrictions per player (whatever they may be). This serves the basic function of the tonnage limits without burdening groups that can balance themselves out.

edit - typos

Edited by Geck0, 26 September 2014 - 10:59 PM.

[Kain Demos]

Brody319, on 26 September 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Like the guy dropping in with 4 lights causing his team to have to deal with being vastly under tonnaged compared to their enemy.
If heavy players have to make sacrifices, how about we also have a tonnage minimum? That way we don't have an entire lance of 4 light mechs, make them bring a heavy if they want to run mostly lights. Would also increase the use of mediums, which seems to be a lot of people's goals.

If a guy is a light pilot and good at what he does why do I care if he drops with 4 lights? I would rather he was at his best in all four of his "lives" then forcing him to suffer two sub-par deaths in a heavy and an assault.

It seems a lot of people are under the impression that a light mech is a "free kill" or a "waste of a slot" for some reason.

I know I need to up my game a notch now. I need to start dropping in my Stormcrows, Novas, and Adders more now to get ready for this since I'm normally a heavy/assault pilot.

Edited by Kain Thul, 26 September 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I don't remember thinking dropship mode was a good idea at all.
In fact, it sounds like nothing more than a griefing mechanic.

Yes I know you want the match to end and move on to the next game, but instead we are going to sit around your spawn point, polishing our epeens and KDR, while filling our pockets with C-Bills as you drop to you death, one at a time, every thirty seconds.

[Kain Demos]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 26 September 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

I don't remember thinking dropship mode was a good idea at all.
In fact, it sounds like nothing more than a griefing mechanic.

Yes I know you want the match to end and move on to the next game, but instead we are going to sit around your spawn point, polishing our epeens and KDR, while filling our pockets with C-Bills as you drop to you death, one at a time, every thirty seconds.

It wouldn't be hard to add a spawn-camp prevention mechanic. Drop ships are usually heavily armed with PPCs and Gauss.

[Brody319]

Kain Thul, on 26 September 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

If a guy is a light pilot and good at what he does why do I care if he drops with 4 lights? I would rather he was at his best in all four of his "lives" then forcing him to suffer two sub-par deaths in a heavy and an assault.

It seems a lot of people are under the impression that a light mech is a "free kill" or a "waste of a slot" for some reason.

Yet people are perfectly fine with making heavy experts and assaults use mechs they don't want to. I'd rather everyone have to use a mech they don't like, rather than being forced to use 2 light mechs I hate, in order to use 2 mechs I like. Would you rather have a bunch of heavy players running 2 mechs they suck at, resulting in 2 easy kills for the enemy, so that mister spider over there doesn't have to walk at 70 KPH like the big boys, or does it sound more fair that a Light player has to bring at least one heavy to the fight? Not like I'm saying set it so high that they have to bring more than 1 assault or heavy, they still get to bring 3 variants of the same mech which means they still get better XP than I do, Since I gotta drop into 2 matches to level my 3 timber wolves.

I'm not saying lights are useless or free kills, but the weapons they bring is so little. like a lance of lights brings the same weapons to the fight as a single Assault. Yes they rip up assaults who are left alone, but they also are useless in group combat when they get stuck on allies and ripped open by the twin gauss Dire wolf that just arrived to the fight.

[Kain Demos]

I think the idea is to promote the under utilized weight classes (Lights and Mediums) and de-emphasize the over utilized weight classes (Heavies and Assaults).

[Wintersdark]

I definitely prefer tonnage to 1/1/1/1. They are functionally similar, but 240t allows 2 med/2 heavy, which is pretty reasonable from a lore perspective.

If 4 mechs are required, high tonnage assaults will become extremely rare.

I much prefer not actually requiring 4 mechs, but instead allowing players the option to bring, say, just two King Crabs and only have one respawn.

Still, I'd prefer 240t and 4 mechs required to 1/1/1/1.

With one of each weight class, almost ever clan player will end up Kit Fox, Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Direwolf. Even the Hellbringer, which would be great for ECM, suffers here because everyone has a Cutefox anyways; how much ecm does a team need?

[Wintersdark]

And, yeah, they'd use mech chassis tonnage, not actual tonnage. Nobody wants to encourage stacking stripped down useless husks to get more assaults in; they'd want to be sure people at least take functional builds.

Kain Thul, on 26 September 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

That is pretty much the point of a weight limit in the low 200s......that "weigh" (couldn't help it, sorry) both sides don't just load up on 100 ton assault 'mechs.

Go ahead and bring your DW just keep in mind your other 3 mechs will only be able to total another 100-120tons.

I would prefer just the hard weight limit instead of the four mechs AND a weight limit thing as well but it seems to me they want to make sure no one is dropping with only one mech and griefing the team.

If the IS weight limit is to be 240-245 I would be embarrassed if the Clans can bring anything over 220.

I'd hold off on different tonnages until after the IS gets their quirk pass and we see how balance works out.

I'd sooner have IS mechs get their quirk pass and have equal tonnage than leave things as they are and have IS have a tonnage advantage... While the later is more "lore friendly" so to speak, a great many IS mechs are really crappy or bland and a large positive quirk pass over all of them will really improve IS gameplay.

[Brody319]

This system isn't going to make me want to bring mediums to the game, just means I gotta put up and be shackled to 2 kit foxes, so that I can actually play the game with my two Timber wolves. Clans don't have the variety of tonnage necessary to justify this system. Maybe after clans get multiple lights and mediums but not now and not after just the second wave.

If heavier players are being forced to learn how to play lights and mediums. I don't see why light players cant learn how to play a a heavy or assault. The tonnage minimum doesn't have to be huge, and would result in a lot more mechs being played than just saying "No you can't use that big mech you like unless you play 3 of these tiny mechs you have no interest in.

[Targetloc]

So here is the big question that could make team tonnage sharing extremely interesting:

Do you get to pick the order you use your mechs in-game?

If not, comp teams are just going to bring 4 identical mechs for each player.


If yes, the question is, does the defender bring all assaults on the first wave and mass defense on the objective locations... or would both teams opt to mass lights for rush/counter-rush, and avoid the early-game artillery? Or maybe you bring mixed to have options to respond to either tactic...

So meta...

Also, we're going to need the option to eject so that teams don't leave popsicles wandering around...

[Wintersdark]

Brody319, on 26 September 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

This system isn't going to make me want to bring mediums to the game, just means I gotta put up and be shackled to 2 kit foxes, so that I can actually play the game with my two Timber wolves. Clans don't have the variety of tonnage necessary to justify this system. Maybe after clans get multiple lights and mediums but not now and not after just the second wave.

If heavier players are being forced to learn how to play lights and mediums. I don't see why light players cant learn how to play a a heavy or assault. The tonnage minimum doesn't have to be huge, and would result in a lot more mechs being played than just saying "No you can't use that big mech you like unless you play 3 of these tiny mechs you have no interest in.

CW won't be in until the Wave 2 Pack is in.

Thus, there will be 25/30/35/45/50/55/60/65/70/75/80/85/100. That's more than adequate for meeting tonnage limits.

[Kain Demos]

Wintersdark, on 26 September 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

And, yeah, they'd use mech chassis tonnage, not actual tonnage. Nobody wants to encourage stacking stripped down useless husks to get more assaults in; they'd want to be sure people at least take functional builds.



I'd hold off on different tonnages until after the IS gets their quirk pass and we see how balance works out.

I'd sooner have IS mechs get their quirk pass and have equal tonnage than leave things as they are and have IS have a tonnage advantage... While the later is more "lore friendly" so to speak, a great many IS mechs are really crappy or bland and a large positive quirk pass over all of them will really improve IS gameplay.

They can cry for even more buffs to them and even more nerfs to us and get them...and I still want to drop with less tonnage.

They can lock us to stock 'mechs, nerf us to tears, etc and I will still play the same way. I thought the developers stated that this will be the "hard core roleplay" game mode for MWO so that's what I plan on doing.

Edited by Kain Thul, 26 September 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Targetloc, on 26 September 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

So here is the big question that could make team tonnage sharing extremely interesting:

Do you get to pick the order you use your mechs in-game?

If not, comp teams are just going to bring 4 identical mechs for each player.


If yes, the question is, does the defender bring all assaults on the first wave and mass defense on the objective locations... or would both teams opt to mass lights for rush/counter-rush, and avoid the early-game artillery? Or maybe you bring mixed to have options to respond to either tactic...

So meta...

Also, we're going to need the option to eject so that teams don't leave popsicles wandering around...

The heck are you talking about?

There's no tonnage sharing on the table.

Russ is discussing allowing a 240 ton 4 mech drop deck for each player. Failing to use the full tonnage doesn't give that to anyone else, and further it's not practical on a technical level to share tonnage due to how the MM builds teams.

As such, the "meta" will be quite flexible for a good while.

[Wintersdark]

Kain Thul, on 26 September 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

They can cry for even more buffs to them and even more nerfs to us and get them...and I still want to drop with less tonnage.

They can lock us to stock 'mechs, nerf us to tears, etc and I will still play the same way. I thought the developers stated that this will be the "hard core roleplay" game mode for MWO so that's what I plan on doing.

While I'm sure you feel that way, I hope you can at least respect that the majority of players are going to want balanced matches, right? An IS tonnage advantage if Clan mechs are still outperforming them, but not IS mechs that are fully balanced with Clan mechs AND out-weighing them.

It's one thing to want something like that, another to expect everyone to do it your way. That's really something that needs to be more democratic.

EDIT:

Keeping in mind that you personally have the option to just not use your full tonnage allotment if you feel so inclined.

Edited by Wintersdark, 26 September 2014 - 04:01 PM.