647 replies to this topic

[ShadowbaneX]

Speaking of Jump Jets, I was playing with my SHD-2H tonight and while I love the mech, 3 Jump Jets is just sad. It seems to barely be able to clear a level 1 terrain change, and even then it usually catches on some ledge that lands it, but is too sharp an incline so the Hill Climb thing kicks in so it's unable to move forward. You have actually have to pull a small hop/jump to clear the sloped terrain and get moving again.

[themoob]

raven 3l and stalker 3f not in tier 1?? lololol good one.

[Wintersdark]

themoob, on 30 September 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

raven 3l and stalker 3f not in tier 1?? lololol good one.

Not anymore, no.

[ExAstris]

A mostly good list.


A few points on mechs I'm highly familiar with (IS mediums/heavies):

Mediums:
The HBK-4P is vastly superior to the CN9-A. Its 9 laser load acts as a scalpel in talented hands. My stats with that mech exceed every other mech I own. It's at least a Tier 2.

Also, having mastered all Cicada's, the 3M is in a league of its own. It would be better than the 2A even if it didn't have the ballistic hardpoint. ECM is just that damned good. That said, the Cicada suffers from being an oversized light mech and taking a valuable slot that could be filled with a far punchier medium instead of an easy-to-hit light.

So I would move the 3M to tier 2 and all the other cicada's a tier higher (perhaps even giving the 3C special recognition as the worst medium in the game). (edit: the 2A is fine as it is in its current tier, the sweet-spot 6 energy hardpoints all torso mounted, plus its general speed and maneuverability make me think I was hasty to dismiss it as vastly worse than the 3M, its only slightly worse, the 2B, X5, and 3C however...)

Heavies:
The JM6-DD and S both can mount quadruple ballistics in the arms. That puts them at least in tier 2. Even with the ballistics changes, uac5/ac5 builds still dominate in this machine as it is easily my most effective heavy.

If the list is supposed to be normalized to clan mechs, then the 3D should be pulled back to T2, because madcat. But still, its fairly clearly the upper echelon of the IS garage, so maybe the tiers aren't numerous enough to capture exactly where it should go.

The Catapults are my most played mechs by far, and the Jester is no tier 3. You have to JJ poptart with ppcs to even be close to useful in this thing, a task any number of thunderbolts can do better. Otherwise the Jester is an overengined, undergunned, 4P with just as much vulnerability to brawling due to its hull geometry, but taking up a valuable heavy slot that could be used for literally anything else. Jester is a tier 5, full stop.

While I hate to do this (as its a long-time favorite of mine), the C4 is not a tier 5. Ton-for-ton, its the best IS LRM boat in the game. The A1 is the only mech that can outperform it (except a few assaults, but that soaks up an assault slot for a mere 10-20% more LRM dps). But the A1 can only do that if your enemy lacks ECM entirely, the C4 can mount serious LRM firepower and a TAG, meaning it isn't useless in nearly as many matches, but still spews forth nearly as many LRMs as a Stalker. So this mech should be ranked as at least as effective as the C1. Thus, Tier 4.


And a few points on mechs I'm not so familiar with:

Given my experience with the Cicadas (and more recently the kitfox), the overall effectiveness of ECM cannot be underestimated. Sure, the best jenners can out-duel it, but that's not the relevant measure of overall effectiveness. My kitfoxes can be outdueled by a lot of lights, but they're still the best light mechs in the game. With that in mind (and having a 3L, even if I don't run it often), I can't imagine that the 3L isn't a tier 1 mech. Nor can I imagine that the DDC is separated from the other Atlases by a single tier given it not only posses the magic box, but also has a better hardpoint selection.



Summary suggestions:
RVN-3L -> Tier 1
CDA-3M -> Tier 2
HBK-4P -> Tier 2
CDA-2B -> Tier 5
CDA-X5 -> Tier 5
CDA-3C -> Tier 6
JM6-DD -> Tier 2
JM6-S -> Tier 2
CPLT-J -> Tier 5
CPLT-C4-> Tier 4
AS7-DDC-> Tier 1

Edited by ExAstris, 04 October 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Sorbic]

I really do feel that the Jester, and maybe even the K2, is ranked too high on the list. Like all Cat's it has a silly squishy CT due to it's size. The arms on all Cat's often give away it's position and take damage before the Cat pilot can even see me. Heck, I used to take great joy in popping their arms but now I see so few with good damage that I make them a low priority target just because i feel sorry for them. I've spent plenty of time in Cat's. I know your pain.

My dual PPC BJ-3 is a far better mech than my dual PPC Jester. I mean like lol, considering it's just a medium, better.

[Mothykins]

As an Aside, where is Huggin on this list? Not exactly an all star of the Ravens.

[FupDup]

Cavale, on 30 September 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

As an Aside, where is Huggin on this list? Not exactly an all star of the Ravens.

It must be a part of the hidden Tier 6.

[Gas Guzzler]

makbeer, on 30 September 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

5) HGN-733C and Atlas DDC are pretty clear tier 1 mechs imo - DDC especially it's one of the best mechs in the game.

I can't agree with this. DDC maybe because of ECM, but the 733C is definitely not Tier 1. It is too slow and not as XL friendly as the Victor, and it has super heavy jump jets.

And let's face it... how often do you see Highlanders nowadays? Honestly most of the time I see them, they are running lots of LRMs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 30 September 2014 - 09:14 PM.

[Karl Marlow]

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Sensible enough tier list, but it really shows how dire the IS heavy and medium (with some notable exceptions) selections are.

My only comment is: why are the vindicators considered fier 4? They're easily worse than even cicadas, and centurion sized to boot. If ever there was a tier 5 mech, vindicator's it. There're good reasons you never see them.

Also, you forgot to put the raven hero on your tier list. Guess it's just that bad.

oh the little raven look so sad I want to give it a big hug.

Then I remember how broken Light hit boxes are and I start eyeing potential 6x CSSRM-6 Mad Dogs.

[Darth Futuza]

FupDup, on 30 September 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

It's basically putting mechs into "bins" based on how good/bad they are. Tier 1 represents the best mechs and Tier 5 represents the worst. We don't fully know the exact criteria being used to determine tiers yet.

But what's the point just to convince people that certain mechs are better than others? o.O
Or just buff sucky mechs and nerf good ones so everything is a little more even?

[Vassago Rain]

As expected, a lot of people in here are operating as if it's still 2012.

No, the hunchback 4P isn't a magical scalpel. It has no range, and gets the shoulder blown apart by every half-way decent robot on the field in very quick order.
No, ECM isn't godtier omega levels of mandatory, because there's about 10 counters to it, and outside the DDC, all current ECM carriers are underarmed.
No, your 2012 hillhumping isn't comparable to madcats doing KOF-styled short hops and blowing robots up in seconds.

The fact that we're all posting in a thread about how most IS mechs are worthless would hopefully give pause to the more ridiculous claims.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 30 September 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Darth Futuza, on 30 September 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

But what's the point just to convince people that certain mechs are better than others? o.O
Or just buff sucky mechs and nerf good ones so everything is a little more even?

The point is to roughly line mechs up with the clan mechs. Now, not all clan mechs are great, but for these purposes, just assume Tier 1 means "Balanced with Clan Mechs after the upcoming changes to Jump Jets and cXL side torso destruction".

They are buffing via quirks the Tier 2 through 5 mechs to bring them up to the Tier 1 level, so that IS v. Clan balance is better, and underused chassis are more "usable".

They are NOT nerfing good IS mechs. It's not just an internal IS-only balancing pass. The best IS mechs, the Tier 1 mechs, simply won't receive any buffs but there will be no IS nerfs involved.

[FupDup]

Darth Futuza, on 30 September 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

But what's the point just to convince people that certain mechs are better than others? o.O
Or just buff sucky mechs and nerf good ones so everything is a little more even?

It's to determine how much to buff each group to try to "level the playing field" a bit.

Tier 1: No direct buffs per se, but any negative quirks will be flushed (i.e. Victors).

Tier 2: Small buffs.

Tier 3: Moderate buffs.

Tier 4: Significant buffs.

Tier 5: Drastic buffs.

[Wintersdark]

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

As expected, a lot of people in here are operating as if it's still 2012.

No, the hunchback 4P isn't a magical scalpel. It has no range, and gets the shoulder blown apart by every half-way decent robot on the field in very quick order.
No, ECM isn't godtier omega levels of mandatory, because there's about 10 counters to it, and outside the DDC, all current ECM carriers are underarmed.
No, your 2012 hillhumping isn't comparable to madcats doing KOF-styled short hops and blowing robots up in seconds.

Sadly, there's a lot of Regular Players (this is not an insult) who primarily drop solo, and feel that Because They Do Great In Some Mech, It Must Be Great. These people just don't understand how Elo works: If you always drop in a terrible mech, you end up with a lower Elo and fight weaker opponents, thus things tend to balance.

They don't see the game from the high-end play perspective, where Elo doesn't really do anything anymore (as there aren't enough people at that level to reliably fill matches with Elo-appropriate players), and thus where differences between a good chassis and a bad one become very significant.

I hate to come across as exclusionary, but in this one particular case, non-competitive players really should sit back a bit. It's important that the mechs are ranked reasonably well from a competitive level, because smaller differences in chassis power outside of competitive play are unimportant and in most cases invisible.

Of course, right now, the differences aren't small. Look at all those T4 and T5 chassis

[orcrist86]

I'm really excited to see what buffs come to lights, the locust in particular.

[Mothykins]

Wintersdark, on 30 September 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

Sadly, there's a lot of Regular Players (this is not an insult) who primarily drop solo, and feel that Because They Do Great In Some Mech, It Must Be Great. These people just don't understand how Elo works: If you always drop in a terrible mech, you end up with a lower Elo and fight weaker opponents, thus things tend to balance.

They don't see the game from the high-end play perspective, where Elo doesn't really do anything anymore (as there aren't enough people at that level to reliably fill matches with Elo-appropriate players), and thus where differences between a good chassis and a bad one become very significant.

I hate to come across as exclusionary, but in this one particular case, non-competitive players really should sit back a bit. It's important that the mechs are ranked reasonably well from a competitive level, because smaller differences in chassis power outside of competitive play are unimportant and in most cases invisible.

Of course, right now, the differences aren't small. Look at all those T4 and T5 chassis

Agreement, Though I'd like to see some quirks to push some 'mechs back towards their intended roles, as opposed to just making them all "even." Like, the K2, for example, really should have PPC buffs, to encourage working closer to it's stock loadout. Or the BJ-1 Getting ac-2/5 specific quirks to shy folks away from the AC-20. Something to make the cheese builds seem less enticing.

Doubtful we'll see too many exactly like this, but I can dream.

[Yukichi Fukuzawa]

So far so good. Glad too see so many mechs addressed.

Lights are good if they are certain ones, but still die quick.

Mediums are all not tier 1 compared to the stormcrow. That mech makes all of these look bad so buff IS mediums.

I TOTALLY agree with the fact that IS heavies are bad, really bad. I am not sure why the firebrand is so high, or the Flame. But besides that I am happy.

Also Assaults I would agree taking the victors and highlanders nerfs puts them in a good place and awesomes are bad.

I have already realized like many others the mechs I like most are considered low tier. I cant wait for the buffs but I am not surprised. A lot of these mechs need help.

[Wintersdark]

Cavale, on 30 September 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

Agreement, Though I'd like to see some quirks to push some 'mechs back towards their intended roles, as opposed to just making them all "even." Like, the K2, for example, really should have PPC buffs, to encourage working closer to it's stock loadout. Or the BJ-1 Getting ac-2/5 specific quirks to shy folks away from the AC-20. Something to make the cheese builds seem less enticing.

Doubtful we'll see too many exactly like this, but I can dream.

That's the stated goal. They want to buff them via a mix of broad quirks and specialized quirks to make various mechs particularly good at specific things. Examples given include the HBK-4G getting a general ballistics buff and a specialized AC20 buff.

[Cerlin]

I think I really like it. Looking forward to how they play out.

Any issues I have are probably dragons, besides that looks pretty good. I will post again if I change my mind.

[Tezcatli]

Looks good to me. Can't wait to test em out. :3